Organic Ingredients?

[echotraveler]

Hey guys i was looking for some Munich Malt and found a brewstore that sells organic ingredients... any particular difference between regular ingredients? I guess it's like buying from a big supermarket or a farmer...

Hopefully they will ship to Puerto Rico, i had a very bad experience with Northern Brewer cause they say im international...when actually i receive domestic usps mail...i was so pissed a their vague excuse that they dont have customs requirements, when i dont have customs!! sorrry, i got fired up.

Back on topic, im gonna give a try to organic hops and grain...see what happens, wanted to buy organic DME but they only had red ale or something like that.

 

[Pappers_]

Hi Echo. I brew with organic malts and hops. You might check out Seven Bridges Co-op at www.breworganic.com - they're in California but ship all over (but I don't know about how they treat shipping to Puerto Rico). They have a great selection of organic grains, malts, extracts and hops.

Like most organic products, they are more expensive. Currently I buy organic malt in bulk from Mid Country Malts and pick it up in-person at their Chicago-area warehouse.

 

[SumnerH]

Hey guys i was looking for some Munich Malt and found a brewstore that sells organic ingredients... any particular difference between regular ingredients?

Not really. There's no such thing as inorganic malt. The only inorganic brewing ingredients I'm aware of are some sanitizers, some salts for adjusting water chemistry, and that one plastic fining agent (PolyClar?).

The label "organic" has nothing to do with a real difference between ingredients; it applies to how they were produced. There are arguments about whether organic or inorganic methods of production are better for the environment, and there are arguments about whether certain ingredients (on both sides of the issue) are healthy, but there's no significant difference as far as the final ingredients go between organically produced ones and others.

 

[david_42]

Most "organic" hops from the USA aren't organically grown, there is an exception that allows hops to be labeled as organic even though they don't meet the requirements imposed on other crops. Most organically grown hops are from New Zealand. There are a few small hop farms in the USA that do qualify. Organically grown malts are available from the USA, but they can run up to double the costs of standard malts.

 

[Phil]

Not really. There's no such thing as inorganic malt. The only inorganic brewing ingredients I'm aware of are some sanitizers, some salts for adjusting water chemistry, and that one plastic fining agent (PolyClar?).

The label "organic" has nothing to do with a real difference between ingredients; it applies to how they were produced. There are arguments about whether organic or inorganic methods of production are better for the environment, and there are arguments about whether certain ingredients (on both sides of the issue) are healthy, but there's no significant difference as far as the final ingredients go between organically produced ones and others.

Err - if your barley is raised under non-certified organic settings, your malt isnt going to be organic. There's more to 'organic' ingredients than just being grown versus manufactured. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I would assume the vast majority of barley is not grown under certified Organic conditions. They spray pesticides and selective herbicides and use synthetic fertilizers. Its cheaper and more applicable to mass production. Of course Organic malt will cost more - its a pain in the ass to grow and harvest. Its up to the consumer to decide to pay for that kind of treatment.

I don't know of any GMO barley used in brewing just yet - but It looks to be on the horizon: http://www.gmo-compass.org/eng/news/stories/203.barley_beer_biotechnology.html I for one don't want to drink GMO beer, and I wouldnt be proud to brew it and serve it to my friends.

and where you say "there's no significant difference as far as the final ingredients go between organically produced ones and others" I feel that you might be missing an essential point of organic production. While some folks prefer organic foods for their own health, many prefer to shop organic for ecological or moral reasons. Sure, labs haven't shown that organic hops have higher AAs, and I probably wont be able to taste a difference, but maybe I'd like my beer better if I knew that my booze-money went to support a farmer dedicated to low-impact agriculture?

 

[SumnerH]

Err - if your barley is raised under non-certified organic settings, your malt isnt going to be organic.

It's not going to be certified organic by some agency. It's still scientifically organic.

The whole field of "organic" food--I use quotes, because it often has nothing to do with anything that's actually organic--is fraught with ignorance and misunderstanding. What's certified "organic" varies heavily by jurisdiction, has little correspondence with what's actually scientifically organic, and tends to carry a bizarre value judgement that "organic"="good" and "not organic"="bad".

That's nonsensical. Heck, water isn't organic. Hydrogen cyanide is. Salt isn't organic. Plastics and nicotine are.

Yet somehow people think "organic is pure and healthy" and "inorganic is evil and dangerous". It leads pro-"organic" lobbyists to recraft the "certified organic" laws into ridiculous contortions where they have nothing to do with what's actually organic, and ultimately the "organic" certification is a political badge rather than one that tells you anything real about what you're eating.

And where you say "there's no significant difference as far as the final ingredients go between organically produced ones and others" I feel that you might be missing an essential point of organic production. While some folks prefer organic foods for their own health, many prefer to shop organic for ecological or moral reasons. Sure, labs haven't shown that organic hops have higher AAs, and I probably wont be able to taste a difference, but maybe I'd like my beer better if I knew that my booze-money went to support a farmer dedicated to low-impact agriculture?

Yes, that's exactly what I was getting at in differentiating production from end-product--there are a lot of reasons to prefer products that are made in certain manners, even if the end-product is the same.

But there's a weird blurring of the lines in the big business of organic foods.

Nobody has a problem saying "I want to buy shoes made without exploiting child labor, even though they're identical to the shoes that child slaves made"--the whole point is that the method of production is reprehensible, and it's worth disincentivizing it.

For some reason, though, there's a particularly zealous wing of the "organic" food industry that I guess thinks people aren't decent enough to realize that certain forms of mass agriculture are devastating and tries to blur the lines with a ton of deceptive claims about differences in the final product. It distorts the focus from the real ills (things like time-bombed patented crops) in a (IMO) misguided attempt to create or exaggerate differences in the final product, and in the long-term undermines the goal of promoting healthy, sustainable means of raising crops.

It's largely the same people who say "I don't want to put any chemicals in my body!"--it shows a total ignorance of science, of the fact that everything from water to 100% certified "organic" tomatoes to butter, gasoline, and nerve gas are made of chemicals. Everything we eat is a chemical, and the argument needs to be about what's healthy or not without ill-informed anti-scientific reactionism.

 

[Strave19]

Most "organic" hops from the USA aren't organically grown, there is an exception that allows hops to be labeled as organic even though they don't meet the requirements imposed on other crops. Most organically grown hops are from New Zealand. There are a few small hop farms in the USA that do qualify. Organically grown malts are available from the USA, but they can run up to double the costs of standard malts.

If hops are certified "Organic" then they are absolutely grown organic. The USA is not a very large producer of organic hops due to the USDA putting hops on the exemption list. This does not mean that hops can be grown inorganically and labeled as organic, it means that hop products (BEER) can be labeled organic with or without using organic hops. There are many beers out there that are labeled USDA organic that are not brewed with organic hops, though some seek organic hops to make their beers with. Organic hop production is lagging in the US due to the USDA's decision (one that will hopefully be overturned soon). There are several growers that have small acreage of organic hops atop their conventional production. These growers have a very hard time finding buyers for their organic hops because of the USDA's exception.

As for the comment about no such thing as "inorganic" malt - well... what? Organically grown barley is used for organic malt, the certification for the final malted barley product ensures that there have been no non-certified chemicals used throughout the growing, malting, and packaging process. The statement that there is evidence both ways whether organic production is better for the environment than conventional - that is simply false. (Read the literature review by D. Lotter, 2003) There are ways to responsibly and sustainably farm using conventional practices, but to say that there is no difference is ridiculous. Look at the literature. There is evidence that organic products are less harmful than conventionally grown mainly due to the pesticides and chemicals present in conventionally grown products. For hops most of the pesticides do not make it into the final product, however some fungicides have been detected in beer (Shibamoto et al. 2002). Keukeleire et al. 2007 actually found more alpha acid production in hops under organic conditions for one variety (First Gold).

Rant over...

Good luck sourcing your ingredients. Will you notice a difference in your beer between organic and conventional? Nope, not unless you have a keen sense of taste for nitrates , but thats not why most people buy organic anyway.

edit: sorry for nerding out all over this

 

[Sardoman]

This is an interesting thread and a useful discussion, but there seems to be a little confusion around the term "organic", probably due to its multiple definitions. I am adding this post to clarify because most people do not have a scientific background.

Organic: In the context of agriculture and beer brewing, I think it is understood by most people to mean something similar to the USDA certification definition. Whether or not that series of standards is the best interpretation of "organic" is the subject of legitimate debate. Adding to confusion, as has been mentioned above, is the great deal of variation in these standards based upon crop, region, etc.

Organic: in the context of science, specifically the field of Chemistry, this term refers to compounds whose molecular makeup is based on the carbon atom. In this respect, SumnerH is asolutely correct that the USDA certifications have nothing to do with the scientific definition of "organic".

Discussing grain that has been grown using conventional modern agriculture and is not certified organic by the USDA:

"SumnerH:It's not going to be certified organic by some agency. It's still scientifically organic.

The whole field of "organic" food--I use quotes, because it often has nothing to do with anything that's actually organic--is fraught with ignorance and misunderstanding. What's certified "organic" varies heavily by jurisdiction, has little correspondence with what's actually scientifically organic, and tends to carry a bizarre value judgement that "organic"="good" and "not organic"="bad".

That's nonsensical. Heck, water isn't organic. Hydrogen cyanide is. Salt isn't organic. Plastics and nicotine are."

Water and salt are not made up of carbon atoms, yet Hydrogen cyanide, plastics, and nicotine are carbon-based combounds.

Most organizations that certify agricultural products as organic utilize a completely different definition of the word, and I believe that is the context in which most people will view the current discussion.

 

[echotraveler]

great discussion thanx guys. In my case i may buy organic to impress the chicks lol im kidding, i usually try to buy produce from local farmers...and for some reason the logic behind certified organic seems to go in harmony with low impact farmers. I guess buying organic or not wont change much the taste of my beer, but it sure would change my way of talking about the beer.

 

[Pappers_]

Hi Echo. In addition to the Seven Bridges Co-op link, here are a couple of others that you might find interesting:

http://beeractivist.com/ Chris O'Brien's site

http://www.breworganic.com/fermentingrevolutionhowtodrinkbeerandsavetheworld.aspx

http://www.beardedbrewing.org/ a blog by an organic home brewer in Minnesota

Cheers!