Opinions wanted on brewing system choice

[jseyfert3]

I've only done a couple of extract kits so far, on a propane burner, but I enjoy it. Moreso the drinking part, having good beer on tap is awesome. My LHBS keeps nudging me to all grain every time I stop by, says it's cheaper and I'll enjoy it more as I can make anything. He sells the Brewer's Edge Mash and Boil for $350. It seems like perhaps a cheap way to get into all grain. I suppose I could always do all grain on a propane burner like the extract kits, but sitting out on a deck by a propane burner isn't pleasant in the summer, and winter is coming. No way I'm sitting out there in winter, not in Wisconsin. So even if I don't like all grain and want to continue doing extract, I'd like something I can do inside. Our stove is radiant flattop, not something suiting to easily boiling large amounts of water.

Pro is our house has a decent sized unfinished basement (where I'd want to brew), and the electrical panel resides in the basement. Between these two things I can easily and cheaply install practically any circuit/outlet combination I want so I'm certainly not limited by power. With that said, I'm looking for suggestions. Do I:

1. Get my feet wet with something cheap like the Brewer's Edge Mash and Boil?
2. Jump straight into something bigger and more powerful (240 V)?
3. Go the DIY route and build a system, to get lots of features for cheaper?
4. Something else?

 

[sleev-les]

I had a Mash and Boil. I liked it, but the controller has a 5 degree start/stop. So during mash, if you are at 152 it won't kick the heat element on until 147. Then I'd notice it would overshoots as it went back up. Still made decent beer, but the tight temp control wasn't there. I changed over to the Grainfather and love it. Controller holds the temps you want and I like having the counterflow chiller it comes with. Problem is you pay a lot more for it. Just depends on how picky you are and your budget.

 

[Coastalbrew]

I have the basic no pump mash and boil and love it. It is simple to use, easy to clean, and versatile for small batches and 5G batches. I enjoy the process of all grain brewing more than I did extract, but it is more time consuming. Part of that is the time it takes for the water to heat up with the 110 V systems like the mash and boil. But I have gotten used to that time and use it to do other things like cleaning and prepping. The 240V systems will heat up faster and save you a little time, but many of those systems have a lot of extra bells and whistles that to me are just not worth the hassle.

I got the no pump version because I didn't want the hassle allthe pump systems seen to have, extra cleaning, clogging, etc. I do manual recirculation with a pyrex measuring cup and it works fine. I get nice clear beer without the use of fining agents and there's no added hassle on brew day. If given the choice today, I would get a system without a pump every time with no regrets.

Diy is never cheaper or easier than a prebuilt system. Yes you have the advantage of getting exactly what you want, but by the time you have pieced everything together and assembled it all, you will have spent much much more in both parts and labor. Plus when something goes wrong or breaks you don't have any warranty or service options other than eating the cost of repair yourself. Another thing to remember with diy is that anytime to put electricity in water it is dangerous. Unless you have the knowledge to do the wiring and grounding safely there is substantial risk in a diy set up.

There are a bunch of nice all in one systems in the market these days that offer nearly infinite range of options and sizes. I suggest doing some research and thinking about what you really want and need and then picking a system that matches those goals.

Cheers!

 

[Dancy]

I had a Mash and Boil. I liked it, but the controller has a 5 degree start/stop. So during mash, if you are at 152 it won't kick the heat element on until 147. Then I'd notice it would overshoots as it went back up. Still made decent beer, but the tight temp control wasn't there. I changed over to the Grainfather and love it. Controller holds the temps you want and I like having the counterflow chiller it comes with. Problem is you pay a lot more for it. Just depends on how picky you are and your budget.

So I’m going back and forth between the Mash & Boil and the Anvil Foundry. The GF is too high for my budget. However, the AF has the tight mash temp control as well. My question is, can you really tell the difference in your beer thanks to the tighter mash temp control?

 

[Coastalbrew]

I have the mash and boil no pump version and love it. IMO the reviews of temp swings in the mash and boil are a little misleading. Yes the temp display on the controller does swing 5-6* once or twice during the hour long mash. However the temp inside the mash does not. I have done 3G and 5G batches in mine and with the 3G batches temp will drop 1* in the middle of the hour and then it comes back up by the end. With the 5G batches, the temp is rock solid for the entire hour. I do manual recirculation with a Pyrex measuring cup and stir the grain bed every 15 minutes and have been getting 80-85% efficiency on all my recent batches.

The mash and boil is not a set it and forget it system like the grain father, so if that is what you are looking for you may be better suited to a different system. But that is one of the things I like about the M&B. I like brewing and being there taking part in the process so for me the M&B has been the best brewing equipment choice I've made yet and if I had to do it again I'd still get the M&B, no question.

I think all the AIO systems are good and have their own pros and cons. If you are looking for simplicity and a more manual brew day the M&B might be a good choice, but if you want a more hands off experience then you might be better served by one of the fancier systems. Just remember that any new system will have a learning curve and will take time for you to get it dialed in.

 

[McKnuckle]

You are not yet an all-grain brewer, so you can't possibly have a list of custom features that you "must" have. If that ever happens, it will be far down the road. DIY in electric brewing is for the tinkerers among us, those who get into that aspect for its own sake.

Get yourself an Anvil Foundry, which has much better temperature control than the M&B - very important for mashing with any precision - and the option of 240V power built right in. The price is $370 without a pump, or $470 with a pump. That's for the larger 10.5 gallon model, required if you're brewing 5 gallon batches. If you are interested in brewing 2.5 gallon batches, you can have the smaller 6.5 gallon Foundry for $100 less.

2.5 gallon batches are fully supported these days by kegs in that size. It's a great option. Brew more often, more styles available for drinking, smaller footprints, easier handling and cleaning.

In your zeal to focus on the hot side of brewing, if you want to get serious you'll need to also pay close attention to the fermentation side. That's where the beer actually gets made, and many brewers take longer to focus on that, perhaps due to romantic visions of steam rising from kettles.

 

[Dancy]

IMO the reviews of temp swings in the mash and boil are a little misleading. Yes the temp display on the controller does swing 5-6* once or twice during the hour long mash. However the temp inside the mash does not. I have done 3G and 5G batches in mine and with the 3G batches temp will drop 1* in the middle of the hour and then it comes back up by the end. With the 5G batches, the temp is rock solid for the entire hour. I do manual recirculation with a Pyrex measuring cup and stir the grain bed every 15 minutes and have been getting 80-85% efficiency on all my recent batches.

Thanks for this. What you say makes a lot of sense. Given several pounds of grains’ ability to retain heat during a 60 minute mash in a double walled kettle, a 5 degree drop in the element does translate to a 5 degree drop in the mash.

 

[Sammy86]

You are not yet an all-grain brewer, so you can't possibly have a list of custom features that you "must" have. If that ever happens, it will be far down the road. DIY in electric brewing is for the tinkerers among us, those who get into that aspect for its own sake.

I'm sorry but why can he not have a must have list? Seems pretty limiting if you ask me.

 

[Stonehenge360]

FWIW, I have a 9.7L digimash 120v. Works great. I added a recirc pump from amazon and some quick disconnect fittings, but other than that it is stock. I have done up to 16lb grain bills in it, and even though it adds maybe an hour to the brew day, 120v is nice since I don’t want to brew next to my clothes dryer.

temp control is 3 degrees on it, which is probably larger than the grainfather, but it’s also 1/3 the price. With the recirc pump I have had no issues making good beer with it

 

[Cato1507]

I've only done a couple of extract kits so far, on a propane burner, but I enjoy it. Moreso the drinking part, having good beer on tap is awesome. My LHBS keeps nudging me to all grain every time I stop by, says it's cheaper and I'll enjoy it more as I can make anything. He sells the Brewer's Edge Mash and Boil for $350. It seems like perhaps a cheap way to get into all grain. I suppose I could always do all grain on a propane burner like the extract kits, but sitting out on a deck by a propane burner isn't pleasant in the summer, and winter is coming. No way I'm sitting out there in winter, not in Wisconsin. So even if I don't like all grain and want to continue doing extract, I'd like something I can do inside. Our stove is radiant flattop, not something suiting to easily boiling large amounts of water.

Pro is our house has a decent sized unfinished basement (where I'd want to brew), and the electrical panel resides in the basement. Between these two things I can easily and cheaply install practically any circuit/outlet combination I want so I'm certainly not limited by power. With that said, I'm looking for suggestions. Do I:

1. Get my feet wet with something cheap like the Brewer's Edge Mash and Boil?
2. Jump straight into something bigger and more powerful (240 V)?
3. Go the DIY route and build a system, to get lots of features for cheaper?
4. Something else?

Before I got into and even after all grain BIAB I used a 240v Advantco induction burner with both a 5.5 and 7.5 gal kettle. I brewed in my garsge.

Great for extract kits, LME, and eventually used it for my entry into all grain BIAB.

Something to consider. I still use that same 240v circuit for my 240v Blichmann 10gal kettle.

 

[RePete]

I wouldn’t dismiss the value of having a built in pump. My only experience is with the 35L Robobrew/Brewzilla. I wasn’t sure about it when I ordered, but have been glad it is there. Both for during mash, but also cooling at the end. Overall I’ve been very happy with this system. That said, the Anvil Foundry looks attractive. The controls are higher, you can switch to 220V, and it has slightly larger capacity.

 

[nursedude]

Also, don’t be afraid of gently used equipment. I bought a used grainfather and an updated connect control panel for $400 a couple years ago as my entry to electric brewing.

not trying to sway you on brands, just providing the used option.

 

[McKnuckle]

I'm sorry but why can he not have a must have list? Seems pretty limiting if you ask me.

I don't mean to dismiss the possibility. I just assume that someone asking about basic choices and directions would probably not yet have very specific requirements, otherwise s/he wouldn't ask.

After a couple of extract kits, and no AG brewing done yet, I would never advise to go down the DIY rabbit hole. It's the most custom, but also the most expensive, most potentially difficult to troubleshoot, and the longest road to actually getting a brew underway.

The other alternative not mentioned is one we advise all the time - a simple BIAB setup to get a feel for AG. It'll always be useful; it can be used with the existing propane burner; it is cheap.

 

[Squirrels]

Depends what you want and if you like the tinkering and have time to do it. I built a 240v system for my brewing and love it. Everything in my system I did the work for (save my conical).

That being said, when it goes I will replace it with a store bought system. I don't have time anymore to tinker. Having children puts a damper on my time to do diy projects.

 

[Dancy]

I wouldn’t dismiss the value of having a built in pump. My only experience is with the 35L Robobrew/Brewzilla. I wasn’t sure about it when I ordered, but have been glad it is there. Both for during mash, but also cooling at the end. Overall I’ve been very happy with this system. That said, the Anvil Foundry looks attractive. The controls are higher, you can switch to 220V, and it has slightly larger capacity.

I’m sure I’d like the Anvil but I am seriously considering the M&B without the pump because so many users have mentioned they don’t regret not having the pump. I have to say I don’t mind the idea of a stir now and then and pouring runoff at the top with a pitcher every 15 minutes. However, the pump still appeals to me but I don’t want the effort of cleaning a clogged internal pump. So I’m thinking of an external pump for the M&B — and I’d like to use it to transfer cooled wort to the fermenter (I have back issues & want to avoid lifting). Am I making sense? Maybe springing for the Anvil makes sense . In put appreciated.

 

[Coastalbrew]

I’m sure I’d like the Anvil but I am seriously considering the M&B without the pump because so many users have mentioned they don’t regret not having the pump. I have to say I don’t mind the idea of a stir now and then and pouring runoff at the top with a pitcher every 15 minutes. However, the pump still appeals to me but I don’t want the effort of cleaning a clogged internal pump. So I’m thinking of an external pump for the M&B — and I’d like to use it to transfer cooled wort to the fermenter (I have back issues & want to avoid lifting). Am I making sense? Maybe springing for the Anvil makes sense . In put appreciated.

You don't need a pump to transfer to the fermenter. I set my M&B on a chair for the whole brewing process. When it's time to transfer, I set my fermenter on the floor under the spigot, open the valve and let her rip. Simple as that.

 

[McKnuckle]

The Anvil pump is an outboard unit, taking wort from the spigot and pumping it up and over the top of the vessel. It's easy to clean, and it won't clog because the grain is contained within the mash pipe and doesn't enter the pump. Alternately, you can buy it without the pump and get that setup later (it's sold separately).

 

[Dancy]

You don't need a pump to transfer to the fermenter. I set my M&B on a chair for the whole brewing process. When it's time to transfer, I set my fermenter on the floor under the spigot, open the valve and let her rip. Simple as that.

Sure I do that now, but I’m lifting the full fermenter off the floor to place it in the counter. At age 61, with a lumbar fusion, hardware and now a new piece of disc broken off and floating around, I am looking for ways to eliminate unnecessary lifting. I‘d like to have the empty fermenter on the counter already and pump the wort into it. After the last brew day, I could barely pick up anything off the floor for 5 days. Brew days must become easier for me. It seems to me an EXTERNAL pump gives more convenient and offers some flexibility.

 

[RePete]

As far as potential clogging, and cleaning the internal pump. It’s really not a problem. I have only had the pump clog once, and that was when I threw in a bunch of loose hops at the end. I cleared it later by using an air compressor and blasting air into the outlet. I normally use a hop basket. Grain from the basket isn’t a problem. I don’t really do anything to clean the pump other than run clean water through it at the end of each brew day. Not a big deal.

 

[Coastalbrew]

Sure I do that now, but I’m lifting the full fermenter off the floor to place it in the counter. At age 61, with a lumbar fusion, hardware and now a new piece of disc broken off and floating around, I am looking for ways to eliminate unnecessary lifting. I‘d like to have the empty fermenter on the counter already and pump the wort into it. After the last brew day, I could barely pick up anything off the floor for 5 days. Brew days must become easier for me. It seems to me an EXTERNAL pump gives is more convenient and offers some flexibility.

Fair enough.

 

[jseyfert3]

Thanks all for the replies. Lots of good info here.

I'm sitting by my boiling kettle right now making my third batch of (extract) beer right now.

Get yourself an Anvil Foundry, which has much better temperature control than the M&B - very important for mashing with any precision - and the option of 240V power built right in. The price is $370 without a pump, or $470 with a pump. That's for the larger 10.5 gallon model, required if you're brewing 5 gallon batches. If you are interested in brewing 2.5 gallon batches, you can have the smaller 6.5 gallon Foundry for $100 less.

Thanks, the foundry definitely looks like a better option for 5 gallon batches, plus being ready to use with 120 V and easily changed to 240 once an outlet is installed.

While I could see 2.5 gallon being nice for experimenting, at least first now the 5 gallon batches don't last long, a 2.5 gallon batch would be gone in a flash. Something about beer on tap and friends who like to drink means the beer just vanishes when I make it...

Before I got into and even after all grain BIAB I used a 240v Advantco induction burner with both a 5.5 and 7.5 gal kettle. I brewed in my garsge.

This sounds like a decent option, something to consider for sure. Come to think of it, I actually have a 20 amp, 240 volt outlet in my garage already. Don't think of it much, but it's available, though I'd rather brew in the basement I think.

Also, don’t be afraid of gently used equipment. I bought a used grainfather and an updated connect control panel for $400 a couple years ago as my entry to electric brewing.

Good point, I'll keep my eyes open for local stuff on Facebook and Craigslist.

 

[BigDave1303]

Sure I do that now, but I’m lifting the full fermenter off the floor to place it in the counter. At age 61, with a lumbar fusion, hardware and now a new piece of disc broken off and floating around, I am looking for ways to eliminate unnecessary lifting. I‘d like to have the empty fermenter on the counter already and pump the wort into it. After the last brew day, I could barely pick up anything off the floor for 5 days. Brew days must become easier for me. It seems to me an EXTERNAL pump gives more convenient and offers some flexibility.

Hi
I also have a bad back & have made the following setup (see photo's) I brew in a Brewster Beacon on the counter top & have made a winch using scaffold poles & some pulleys which I use to raise the malt pipe after mashing. I have a GF conical fermenter sat on a cart which I made (on wheels). After chilling the wort I push the cart next to the Brewster & pump the chilled wort into the GF conical. I can then sit on a stool & bottle.
The malt pipe does sit on the top of the Brewster but I have only taken a photo of it fully raised clear.
Probably not the best setup but it works ok

 

[Brewer_Dad]

I have the basic no pump mash and boil and love it. It is simple to use, easy to clean, and versatile for small batches and 5G batches. I enjoy the process of all grain brewing more than I did extract, but it is more time consuming. Part of that is the time it takes for the water to heat up with the 110 V systems like the mash and boil. But I have gotten used to that time and use it to do other things like cleaning and prepping. The 240V systems will heat up faster and save you a little time, but many of those systems have a lot of extra bells and whistles that to me are just not worth the hassle.

I got the no pump version because I didn't want the hassle allthe pump systems seen to have, extra cleaning, clogging, etc. I do manual recirculation with a pyrex measuring cup and it works fine. I get nice clear beer without the use of fining agents and there's no added hassle on brew day. If given the choice today, I would get a system without a pump every time with no regrets.

Diy is never cheaper or easier than a prebuilt system. Yes you have the advantage of getting exactly what you want, but by the time you have pieced everything together and assembled it all, you will have spent much much more in both parts and labor. Plus when something goes wrong or breaks you don't have any warranty or service options other than eating the cost of repair yourself. Another thing to remember with diy is that anytime to put electricity in water it is dangerous. Unless you have the knowledge to do the wiring and grounding safely there is substantial risk in a diy set up.

There are a bunch of nice all in one systems in the market these days that offer nearly infinite range of options and sizes. I suggest doing some research and thinking about what you really want and need and then picking a system that matches those goals.

Cheers!

I am aiming to get an electric system. When you say that a 240V system "will heat up faster and save you a little time" how much time could that be?

I'm in Chile and I have pretty much 2 options, the 10gal brewzilla and the 10gal mash&boil, the former being around 250-300 bucks more expensive than the latter.

 

[Coastalbrew]

I am aiming to get an electric system. When you say that a 240V system "will heat up faster and save you a little time" how much time could that be?

I'm in Chile and I have pretty much 2 options, the 10gal brewzilla and the 10gal mash&boil, the former being around 250-300 bucks more expensive than the latter.

I have a 110V system which takes 30-45 minutes to come up to mash temp and again to boil. I mostly do 3G batches these days so heat up times are more like 30 minutes. I've never used a 240V system personally, but from reading reviews the heat up times are about half that of the 110V systems. Personally I like having a little time to get things cleaned, etc but my overall brew day length ends up being closer to 5-6 hours. I also vorlauf about 3G on average and sparge which both add time as well.

 

[tracer bullet]

I went the Anvil route because of "flip a switch" to get 240V, and the abilty to set a %age on the power to help it maintain a more consistent temp. I'd recommend the same to others.

 

[tracer bullet]

I'm sitting by my boiling kettle right now making my third batch of (extract) beer right now.

LOL Off topic but I have the same table and chairs right down to the finish peeling off the arms. Home Depot about 15 years ago, in MN.

 

[sibelman]

Sure I do that now, but I’m lifting the full fermenter off the floor to place it in the counter. At age 61, with a lumbar fusion, hardware and now a new piece of disc broken off and floating around, I am looking for ways to eliminate unnecessary lifting. I‘d like to have the empty fermenter on the counter already and pump the wort into it. After the last brew day, I could barely pick up anything off the floor for 5 days. Brew days must become easier for me. It seems to me an EXTERNAL pump gives more convenient and offers some flexibility.

I confirm the flexibility and spinal health benefits of a standalone pump.

 

[jseyfert3]

LOL Off topic but I have the same table and chairs right down to the finish peeling off the arms. Home Depot about 15 years ago, in MN.

Lol. They are Hampton Bay, so definitely Home Depot. They came with the house, which we purchased earlier this year, so I'm not sure how old they are.

Since they are aluminum and not steel they haven't rusted. I was thinking of cleaning them up and re-finishing them at some point, as they seem to be very solid.

 

[Stonehenge360]

I am able to hit a 6 hour brew day with my 110v unit, an external pump, and 5 gallon batches with a 1 hour mash and 1 hour boil. I would guess a 220v system would shave about an hour off that.

If you do go 220v, make sure you are using a dedicated 220 GFIC. Always smart when dealing with water

 

[NSMikeD]

this is the Anvil Foundry thread if you want to read up on pros and cons from actual users of it; +1 on 2.5 gallon brewing.

There are a number of good apps to help you with all grain. IMO, the process of selecting your ingredients and deciding on the steps for making your beer is a learning curve - you can start simple by following published recipes/brew steps and as you start understanding why and how certain things produce certain results. Brewing apps help customize recipes for your own set up.

I started all gain with BIAB. on the BIAB site using their spreadsheet and their basic Amarillo pale ale recipe on a stainless steel pot I modded with a spigot and thermometer in my stove top and mashed in my oven. Now I use Beersmith on my Anvil Foundry, dial in my water specs, ferment in a temp controlled mini fridge and keg and serve in a DIY kegerator. - all 2.5 gallons .

The basic BIAB helped me understand what was important for me as I upgraded, but those first simple batches were pretty good.