Opinions on Extract Brewing

[kh54s10]

I have used Pale or light DME for starters and for 5 gallon batches. I have not seen any off flavors or smells. I would rate my extract batches at most 5% lower than my all grain beers. If that. Most were equal, and some were better than my usual all grain brews. In fact my second brew, an extract Northern Brewer Patersbier extract kit, I would still rank in the top 10 of my 104, mostly all grain brews.

 

[bpgreen]

I brewed a lot of extract and partial mash brews using LME and had great results. My LHBS sells LME in bulk for $2/lb. They also go through it really fast, so it's always fresh. If LME gets old, it darkens and doesn't ferment as well.

 

[MaxStout]

I tried brewing an extract beer once. The LME was a few months old. Hated it. Never again.

When I make starters, the [Briess] DME wort smells and tastes bad, in my opinion.

I'll stick with all grain. Milling, mashing, adjusting water, and cleaning are all worth the effort to me.

When I started out and did extract brews, I never knew how long that LME had been sitting on the shelf before I bought it. But if any of those early brews sucked, it was probably more my fault than the extract.

I keep a few pounds of LME on hand for starters, but once I open the bag I store the rest in a Mason jar in the freezer, so haven't noticed any flavor issues. I usually decant as much from the starter before pitching anyway, to limit the amount of spent wort going into my beer. Haven't used Briess DME, usually find Munton's at my LHBS.

 

[SoCal-Doug]

Been brewing on and off for 30-ish years. Most of that was all grain. I still threaten to just go back to extract and take over the wife's stove (nope, wont happen, had a boil over once when I first started. I was never allowed back in the kitchen). Normally I think about extract brewing when its stupidly hot outside, stupidly cold outside, or the taps are empty and i'm really not motivated to brew. Oh, and every time i'm cleaning up after a long brew day.

Some pilsner LME and water... about 15 IBU of saaz early... 5 IBU of liberty at the end... toss in some WY2112 or WLP029... let-r-rip. Done! Yeah, I would be ok with a keg of that

Can you make world class beer with extracts? Yup! Do you have the recipe flexibility that all grain has? Nope! Absolutely nothing wrong with either.

 

[applescrap]

Thanks guys, thats the spirit so-cal, I wouldnt mind a keg of that too. @MaxStout thanks for the input. That is what I heard from the brewer on a podcast of experimental brewing. He is a lifetime extract brewer and he said that they are good. And while maybe not as good as the best ag in the club (drews club, maltose falcolns), he said they are routinely better than some of the shatty beers made by less skilled brewers ( me ).

He is the guy who uses pet bags too and I want to do that as well but they only come in bulk. I figure it will help airtight bucket and help with clean up. Until then, guess its oxy, rinsed and sanitized. I saw this kid in a brew video once make a belgian. with dme, cinnamon sticks, candi sugar, candied ginger, spices and stuff, it looked good to me. Im out of grain so almost time to make a choice. I have ten gallons of light lager, somebody remind me why I brewed that, and before thats gone Ill be reupping.

 

[Apimyces]

I did DME extract beers for a while when I started brewing. I don’t think that there is any difference at all between using DME as a base malt and all grain base malt. I recently did a pale ale with only DME and Nelson Sauvin hops. The beer came out great as it was and if I had used some steeping grains, which I feel were unneeded, I suppose I could have added some complexity. I love brewing all grain, but I think the difference between DME and all grain is aesthetic as in, I feel cooler because I brew AG. Plus it is super easy and consistent. The malt extract companies have everything super controlled. They don’t mash low because of a poorly calibrated thermometer like you or I might. I think that for advanced brewers, DME could be used as a tool for more quickly experimenting with other variables.

The Brülosophy exBeeriment doesn’t agree with me. http://brulosophy.com/2016/01/04/ex...-2-comparing-recipe-kits-exbeeriment-results/

Well, to note, that out of the 20 tasters, he needed 11 to be statistically relevant, and he got exactly 11... honestly that's fairly poor. Out of the 11, 3 said they couldn't tell the difference, so they admit they just got lucky on the guess. On the 9 left, a minority had a preference for the all grain, 4/9.

That said, his conclusion is pretty fair. He says he can reliable tell them apart, and that there's a certain distinctive caramel flavor to malt extract, but that it did not make extract inferior, just slightly different.

It's quite likely that some recipes will turn out better with this difference and others worse, and that some recipes will attenuate the difference and others will accentuate it.

I've resumed brewing yesterday, took out that nice sweet amber LME. Made me sad I didn't order more, I'd totally have made candy with some. Smells and tastes great. I'm not likely to switch to all-grain until I see a financial incentive to do so. Grains are cheaper per ABV, but the setup to handle them is would require many hundreds of bucks over what I currently have. So 'till I decide to upscale, quite happy with my LME.

 

[Soulshine2]

If you go with the Briess, double-check for freshness dates.
The 3.3lb LME canisters will usually have a dated barcode on the bottom, so compare what's on the shelf if you're shopping. I've used their Bavarian Wheat LME for an all extract (no steeping grains) hefeweizen and it's very good. With that style of beer you can easily get away with a short 30min boil and low alpha hops. It might cost you a bit more for the extract beer, but will save you time as opposed to crushing, mashing, and cleaning up a comparable all grain.

If I may interject ... I have used Briess, Weyermann and Rahr. I pick out of the LHBS orphan bin. Sometime if you have that option ,try it. Its like going to the local liquor/beer store and getting a "Pick Your Own 6 Pack" of beer ...I get to try something because its at a discount that I wouldn't normally buy/try at full cost.

 

[kh54s10]

I've resumed brewing yesterday, took out that nice sweet amber LME. Made me sad I didn't order more, I'd totally have made candy with some. Smells and tastes great. I'm not likely to switch to all-grain until I see a financial incentive to do so. Grains are cheaper per ABV, but the setup to handle them is would require many hundreds of bucks over what I currently have. So 'till I decide to upscale, quite happy with my LME.

Look at BIAB, Unless you need a larger kettle the only additional equipment you need is a bag...

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

Well, to note, that out of the 20 tasters, he needed 11 to be statistically relevant, and he got exactly 11... honestly that's fairly poor. Out of the 11, 3 said they couldn't tell the difference, so they admit they just got lucky on the guess. On the 9 left, a minority had a preference for the all grain, 4/9.

Certainly a triangle test can be in error, but to reach statistical significance, it accounts for those who are guessing, that’s why you need to reach 11 out of 20 and not just 7 out of 20. Sure when something is really different the significance is more certain and less likely to be in error, but that’s the point of using widely agreed upon statistical standards. If significance is found, it is reliable that a difference is there even if subtle. I know that Marshall doesn’t feel like there is much meaning in the preference data, because what one person prefers is wildly different than another. From my perspective, it is important. I feel like the preference data is about as close to a good beer yardstick that we can give to a future brewer. What would be interesting is if we could somehow find how each of these flavors could be found to be distasteful in one context and preferred in another, much like a musical composition of notes. In that regard we could presumably achieve a beer opus of sorts.

To take this idea a step further, I propose a true robo-brew, set in a nitrogen purged room, ran by an AI. The AI will be fed a large number of malt types, hops, yeast and water salts and start churning out beers. Anyone that comes to Robo Brewery is given as much free Robo beer as they can drink, three at a time and then surveyed for each flight on difference and preference. The AI will then get the feedback and produce better and better beers. At some point it will find the penultimate beer. Plot twist, it tastes just like Bud Light.

 

[Carolina_Matt]

I started brewing about a year ago. My first three batches were DME that I bought at a local store that was going under. I did partial boils because I didn't have a big enough pot, and I ferment in a chest freezer attached to an inkbird. They were ok, but nothing special. The biggest issue was the carbonation, since my craigslist kegerator only had 5' lines so the beer was either undercarbonated, or full of foam.

I bought a few DME kits from Rite Brew and moved up to ~8-10 foot lines and full boil with a 9.5 gallon kettle. Carbonation problem sorted itself out. I recall thinking the beer was pretty good - good enough to finish a keg in short order - but I wasn't blown away.

I bought maybe a dozen kits through Northern, and they have LME. I've also tried a few LME from Atlantic Brew Supply. Overall they've been drinkable, but I've felt that there's a harshness to them. There's some sort of aftertaste that detracts from the beer. Other people have said that they like the beer, but I've never been too confident asking someone to try the beer. I tried putting half the extract at the end of the boil, and that didn't fix the problem. It was still somewhat harsh.

My wife bought me 3 kits for Christmas, but they were all-grain. I bought a Wilser bag and a grain mill and tried BIAB. The first kit was a Blue Moon clone from Morebeer, and I was immediately impressed. The harshness was gone. It's not my favorite type of beer, but I was proud of the quality. My wife loved it too. It had a smoothness that my extract beers didn't have.

Then I made a Fat Tire clone from Morebeer, and that's the best beer I've ever made. I have a Russian River Blind Pig clone fermenting right now, and I'd imagine it will be much better than any of the extract batches I've made.

A lot of people don't notice the difference in their batches, but in my limited experience, my BIAB beer has simply been leaps and bounds better than my extract beer.

 

[GHBWNY]

Three things I have experienced with extract, and ONLY extract, brews:

1. Higher FG (the dreaded "1.020 Extract Curse")
2. A slightly apparent "extract-y" taste as compared to AG.
3. A slightly darker color as compared to the AG equivalent.

That said, I still like to do a kit once in awhile, depending on the style. The above tendencies seem to not be as noticeable in say, a brown or wheat.

 

[dmtaylor]

Three things I have experienced with extract, and ONLY extract, brews:

1. Higher FG (the dreaded "1.020 Extract Curse")
2. A slightly apparent "extract-y" taste as compared to AG.
3. A slightly darker color as compared to the AG equivalent.

That said, I still like to do a kit once in awhile, depending on the style. The above tendencies seem to not be as noticeable in say, a brown or wheat.

Winner winner chicken dinner! Give this man a prize, I totally agree.

And now I'll just set this here for good measure:

 

[TheFlyingSparge]

Why waste time thinking about it – brew something and find out. Fresh, well brewed beer that YOU made YOURSELF tastes good no matter what. Start with extract and steep your specialty grain. That's the way many people start.

 

[NGD]

Winner winner chicken dinner! Give this man a prize, I totally agree.

And now I'll just set this here for good measure:

Thanks for posting that @dmtaylor

Only quibble I have with that sheet is the full vol/60min boil. I just don’t see any reason for it. 30-45 min boils still give you your hop utilization numbers and at least from what I’ve seen I tend to end up with lighter beer. Fully admit the SRM could be a self induced placebo effect, but the 30 less min I spend brewing is really nice.

 

[S-Met]

30 vs 60 min for bitrering additions, perhaps? Not a promise though. Side by side, you may be able to tell a difference, but individually I doubt anyone would know.

 

[dmtaylor]

Thanks for posting that @dmtaylor

Only quibble I have with that sheet is the full vol/60min boil. I just don’t see any reason for it. 30-45 min boils still give you your hop utilization numbers and at least from what I’ve seen I tend to end up with lighter beer. Fully admit the SRM could be a self induced placebo effect, but the 30 less min I spend brewing is really nice.

I agree with that. I'm all for shortening the brew day. My all-grain batches are done in 3 to 3.5 hours average. Not many all-grain brewers can say that. If an extract beer can be done in, let's say 45 minutes, wow, I love that.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

Winner winner chicken dinner! Give this man a prize, I totally agree.

And now I'll just set this here for good measure:

Thanks. I'm grabing this sheet and posting on my No-Boil Recipe thread. Appears to have some valuable information.

 

[doug293cz]

Getting too OT with post discussing the merits, or lack thereof, of Brulosophy's methodology. Save those discussions for a Brulosophy related thread.

doug293cz
HBT Moderator

 

[Big Monk]

Extract is fine, especially for brown beers and hoppy beers. For most other things, all-grain tastes a whole lot better. But if all you care about is hops, then extract is just fine. Just brew it.

You know what Dave?

I think that admirable Trappist inspired beers are achievable with extract as well. For beers that are hopped so lightly, they typically get pegged as malt showcases, but what they really are are yeast showcases.

I love my all grain Trappist recipes but I don’t think I’d have an issue converting them to extract and still loving the results.

 

[ThirstyPawsHB]

You know what Dave?

I think that admirable Trappist inspired beers are achievable with extract as well. For beers that are hopped so lightly, they typically get pegged as malt showcases, but what they really are are yeast showcases.

I love my all grain Trappist recipes but I don’t think I’d have an issue converting them to extract and still loving the results.

Any chance you can PM your Trappist recipe? Doing cold brew all dme recipe experimenting but still do AG 90min boils most the time.

 

[dmtaylor]

You know what Dave?

I think that admirable Trappist inspired beers are achievable with extract as well. For beers that are hopped so lightly, they typically get pegged as malt showcases, but what they really are are yeast showcases.

I love my all grain Trappist recipes but I don’t think I’d have an issue converting them to extract and still loving the results.

More power to that, man! Sounds great to me. I haven't brewed all extract for quite some time... maybe I should give it a whirl with WLP550 or whatever.

 

[Big Monk]

More power to that, man! Sounds great to me. I haven't brewed all extract for quite some time... maybe I should give it a whirl with WLP550 or whatever.

Neither have I but I have too much Dad stuff to do lately and I’m not going to be able to do an AG brew for some time.

I’d rather brew some extract than not brew at all. Of course I’ll apply my usual rigor even to that.

 

[AZCoolerBrewer]

I wonder why breweries using hop extract is innovative and exciting, but using malt extract is cheating and lesser.

 

[Big Monk]

I wonder why breweries using hop extract is innovative and exciting, but using malt extract is cheating and lesser.

It sure is an expensive form of cheating if that’s the case!

I’ve wanted to get my hands on Weyermann malt extracts for a while but I don’t believe you can get it in the states.

 

[applescrap]

It wont be long. I have 5 more gallons of light lager left, and 7 pounds of gp left. I am probably going to use that 7 pounds for the colonial brown. 7 pounds gp and 7 pounds brown malt with 1 pound biscuit. This recipe is mouthwatering.

 

[Mic Carp]

I see a lot of talk about the cost of extract vs all-grain. how much does the equipment cost to do all-grain? I am into my kettles (all stainless), burner and fermenter buckets (around 6) for a total of about $200 max. if I spent $500 on gear, it would take me about 50 brews to break even. does that sound abot right?
meanwhile, I love the beers i brew using LME or DME and so do all my friends. and really don't we all brew to drink better beer than the big 3 produce and get a few atta-boys from our friends?

I think there is no better way to brew, only better for you!

 

[myelo]

I see a lot of talk about the cost of extract vs all-grain. how much does the equipment cost to do all-grain?

For me it was $3.10. Oh yeah, plus tax. That's what I paid for my paint strainer bag that I bought so I could do all grain BIAB. I already had my brew pot that I use on my kitchen propane stove.

If I did my ciphering correctly, I broke even about half way into my first all-grain brew. When this bag gives out I'm dreaming of getting me one of them fancy WeiserBrewer bags like they have in the big cities ... but so far the damn paint strainer bag keeps working fine.

 

[kh54s10]

As myelo said, it depends on how you want to tackle the transition to all grain. I went with a three vessel system and didn't spend $500. $100 for 2 ten gallon kettles (Craigslist find), $45 for a cooler, $75 for valves etc. $75 for burners, Maybe $75 for everything else. Approximately $370

If batch size is not a concern $20 for a 5 gallon pot and $5 for 5 gallon paint strainer bags.

Your $40 extract kit costs approximately $25 in all grain. Possibly even less.

Plus you more control over the recipe. You are not always sure what goes into making the extract.

 

[NGD]

Your $40 extract kit costs approximately $25 in all grain. Possibly even less.

I get your point here but wanted to clarify the word “kit”. Most all grain recipe kits are only a few dollars less than their extract counterparts..at least from Midwest and NB.

Few examples:
Karma Citra IPA Extract: $37.99
Karma Citra IPA All grain: $33.99

Dragons Silk imperial Stout Extract: $67.99
Dragons Silk imperial Stout all grain: $59.99

Most recipe kits are under a $10 difference, many only being $3-4. When you buy ingredients in bulk then the saving will become much more significant.

 

[Apimyces]

6lb of LME costs about 27,00$CAD, which is about 20,17$USD. Add a few bucks of hops and some yeast, and you've got a decent brew totaling something around 25$USD or so.

I was seriously considering going all grain, for some time, but I started trying to brew without boiling it, and so far, so good, and if that keeps up, I'll just ditch the all-grain project completely. Foregoing kits, picking LME and hops already gives a lot of flexibility in recipe making. At most, adding a partial-mash with specialty grains allows a bit more, without needing as much fuss. Heck, they can be cold-steeped, possibly avoiding boiling altogether, or at most boiled in smaller volumes with the bittering hops (despite the lower effectiveness this is likely to cause).

Also, of course transitioning to something is gonna be cheap if you already own everything. But that's fudging the numbers, in reality, it's not free, you just already happened to have paid for it. For example, I could say my whole brewing setup was free! I didn't need to spend a penny when I started making beer despite my 50 gallon or so capacity! But in reality, I've been brewing mead for a while, so I just already had a ton of stuff. No kettles, though, or anything relating to boiling. So no heat-able pump, no valves, no chiller of any sort, no false bottom, etc.

In reality, someone can brew complex recipes with just simple food-grade plastic pails, a few feet of tubing, some recycled bottles, caps, and a small kettle. For the cost of the LME+hops+yeast+adjuncts. While on the other hand, I don't see many people doing all-grain who don't have multiple large kettles, something for the sparge, heat-tolerant pumps, chillers, fairly efficient filtration equipment, lots of tubing, lots of valves, temperature monitoring and control, burners (typically propane), etc., etc., etc.

Obviously if you already have all that, the incentive to switch to all grain is greater.

But the main cost saver is simply to avoid kits, and to make one's own recipe, especially if you can bulk-size your ingredient purchases. Avoiding frivolously premium ingredients, such as patented hops, can also help save a few bucks off every brew.