On Cloning Bissell Brothers Swish

[FruityHops]

Bissell Brothers lists the malts, hops, OG, and ABV of Swish on their website along with all the brews they make, so I have a pretty good starting point at least.

Here is what they list :

Malts : 2-Row, Golden Promise, Flaked Wheat
Hops : Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe, Apollo
OG : 1.070
ABV : 8%

For the malts I'm assuming equal parts 2-row and golden promise, with about 10% flaked what as a starting point. Presumably we'll want to mash at a low temp for a double IPA like this to avoid too much sweetness, I'm using 148 F to start with.

Do you think they add dextrose to help dry it out? It isn't listed on their website, but technically it isn't a malt so it could be in there, as they list the malts but not necessarily the whole grist.

The thing that is giving me the most trouble as I'm playing around in my brewing software is the OG of 1.070 yielding an ABV of 8%. That is clearly going to require a highly attenuating yeast. US-05 just might be up to it, but that isn't one of the yeasts usually associated with this NE style of ale.

Finally, the hops. I assume apollo is the bittering hop and the rest are used super late in the boil if at all and used in large amounts after flame-out. I figure starting with equal amounts of simcoe, citra, and mosaic should put me somewhere in the ballpark and then I can tweak from there after tasting the first batch.

Here is what I've come up with to get the numbers to look right for a 3 gallon batch that is easy for me to do in my 7.5 gal kettle with a BIAB setup.

Batch Size : 3 gallons
Efficiency : 70%
OG : 1.070

Grist :

3.6 lbs 2-Row (44%)
3.6 lbs Golden Promise (44%)
1 lb Flaked Wheat (12%)

Mash :

148 F for 60 minutes

Hop Schedule :

12 g Apollo @ 60 minutes (52 IBU)

2 oz Simcoe - Whirlpool @ 150F for 30 minutes
2 oz Citra - Whirlpool @ 150F for 30 minutes
2 oz Mosaic - Whirlpool @ 150F for 30 minutes

1 oz Simcoe - Dry Hop for 4 days
1 oz Citra - Dry Hop for 4 days
1 oz Mosaic - Dry Hop for 4 days

Yeast :

US-05
Attenuation : 81%
FG : 1.012
ABV : 7.67%

I'd love to get input from others, especially relating to yeast selection, whether or not to use dextrose, and the proposed hop schedule and proportions.

 

[Calichusetts]

Looks good. I have produced some amazing IPAs this winter. A few just screamed trillium/NE style. I also do 3 gallons (well, 3.75 gallons at flameout but 3 gallons in the keg.)

The "breakthrough" techniques for me that got me on par with the best were:

Notty at low temps (60-65)
Flaked wheat/white wheat (yes...both)
Whirlpool is spot on in terms of amounts (I also did a 20/15/10/5 small additions but I think its negligible)
Split that dry hop (1.5 oz for 3-5 days, then another round)

Differences?
I mash higher but use brown sugar that I can get cheap, I think it basically equals out in this respect. Make sure your hitting 1.012 or lower in terms of FG...however you get there.) Though 1.012 "feels" right in terms of mouthfeel and finish

Cheaters?
Grapefruit/Orange peel at flameout. I didn't do it all the time but it absolutely got me there.

Keg hopping...so over the top I did consider it "cheating." 1-1.5 oz in tea balls. First 5 pours were literally better than any commercial example. Shake the keg every few days for the fresh, dank, tropical paradise. I actually stopped because I was drinking to much with this method.

 

[FruityHops]

Very cool info, thanks.

I've only brewed one other NE style batch and used WY1318. I haven't heard Nottingham yeast mentioned for the NE style before, but it is supposed to attenuate a bit more then 1318 so it might be worth a try for this clone.

I like the idea of splitting the same dry hop amount into two separate charges. I'm still a newbie, I dry hopped both times I've brewed and each time I've gotten a bit of a green flavor that I've associated with green apple, though it only showed up after dry hopping. At first I thought it was acetaldehyde, but now I'm not sure since I did a lot to avoid that the second time around, and my wife doesn't notice it this time. Splitting into two dry hoppings might help avoid that green flavor I suppose, it will be something different to try at least, and the second dry hop will be closer to bottling so it should keep the hoppy flavors better.

The wife says if I can brew another batch as good as the second one, which was the NE style, then I can get kegging equipment. So the plan is to brew the recipe from my second batch again next week. Assuming I don't screw that up I'll probably try this Swish clone recipe after that, and hopefully it will get loaded into a keg. If that is the case I will probably do some keg hopping.

 

[WWJPD]

Hey, all.

FruityHops sent me a msg the other day, but I'm still catching up from HomebrewCon2016 and just responded today and then see this thread. Anyway, I got the recipe for this directly from Noah Bissell. Here is what I put together based on what he told me.

OG:1.070

-1.074

Fermentables
15lbs Golden Promise malt(75%)
2lbs American 2-row(10%)
2lbs Flaked wheat(10%)
1lbs dextrose(5%)

Hops
-10min - .25oz Apollo
-10min - 1oz Mosaic
-10min - 1oz Simcoe
Flameout - 3oz Citra(30min hotstand/whirlpool)
Flameout - 3oz Mosaic(30min hotstand/whirlpool)
Flameout - 1oz Simcoe(30min hotstand/whirlpool)
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Apollo
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Citra
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Mosaic
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Simcoe
Dryhop 2 - 2oz Mosaic
Dryhop 2 - 2oz Citra
Dryhop 2 - 1oz Simcoe

Yeast
Wyeast 1056 American Ale or Conan

Mash at 151°, be sure to have a mash PH of 5.2

Boil for 75min

After dry hop, cold crash to about 35° and let settle for a few days to week.
​

I've made this recipe twice now and it's been excellent both times. First time I made it with Conan yeast. The second time with White Labs Hansen Ale yeast(from the Yeast Vault.) We liked the Hansen one a bit better. Leave time for the dry hop and yeast to settle at cold temps. You can see pics and reviews of my Hansen batch here https://untappd.com/b/cat3brewing-cindy-swishes/1571791

 

[FruityHops]

Awesome, WWJPD. It doesn't get any better than straight from the horse's mouth.

I have a few questions bases on what you PM'd me and what you posted here. So everyone is on the same page, this is what I got from WWJPD, who got it from Noah Bissell apparently :

I honestly don't have a copy of the 5 gallon recipe anymore and pretty much only think in 10 bbl sizing but I'll give you what I can. Grain bill is like 75% golden promise, 10% 2-row, 10% flaked wheat, and 5% dextrose. OG: 1.070-1.074, FG: 1.011-1.014. Mash low. Use pretty neutral water and make sure you get your mash ph nice and low (~5.3 at room temp). Boil for 75 mins, bitter with about .25 oz. Apollo, 1 oz Mosaic 1 oz Simcoe with 10 mins left, 3 oz Citra, 3 oz Mosaic, 1 oz Simcoe @ flameout with a 30 min hotstand before chilling. Two dry hops, add first one at the tail end of fermentation (1 oz each Apollo Citra Mosaic Simcoe) then add the next one 2-4 days later (2 oz Mosaic, 2 oz. Citra, 1 oz. Simcoe) and let sit another 2-4 days then crash cool for 2 days. Secondary isn't necessary but you can use one. Good luck!

WWJPD, based on that it looks like the grain amounts you posted would be for about 7.5 gallons, but you're using the hop amounts that Noah mentioned for 5 gallons?

When Noah says to bitter with .25 oz of apollo I took that to mean either at 75 min or at 60 min of boil remaining (not sure), then the 1 oz each of simcoe and mosaic at 10 minutes.

 

[lilbova3]

Nice!

 

[WWJPD]

I was shooting for 6gal into the boil kettle and started with about 8.5 gal of water in my mash tun. I had treated my water according to a balanced IPA profile. You have to keep in mind your specific system efficiency and boil off ratio. I ended up with 5 gal at 1.072. Don't forget that all those hops are going to suck up a ton of wort. If using Beersmith, try using the percentages listed with your equipment profile to get that 1.072-1.074 OG for 5gal.

Regarding the Apollo, I read it as all 3 of those 10min.

I believe the dry hop sucked up another gal of beer, so it's a pretty expensive beer for 4 finished gallons.

 

[droder1]

Awesome, WWJPD. It doesn't get any better than straight from the horse's mouth.



I have a few questions bases on what you PM'd me and what you posted here. So everyone is on the same page, this is what I got from WWJPD, who got it from Noah Bissell apparently :







WWJPD, based on that it looks like the grain amounts you posted would be for about 7.5 gallons, but you're using the hop amounts that Noah mentioned for 5 gallons?



When Noah says to bitter with .25 oz of apollo I took that to mean either at 75 min or at 60 min of boil remaining (not sure), then the 1 oz each of simcoe and mosaic at 10 minutes.

Hot damn, so their 10bbl scaled down to 5 gal is 7 oz hop stand and 8 oz dry hop.

 

[FruityHops]

I was shooting for 6gal into the boil kettle and started with about 8.5 gal of water in my mash tun. I had treated my water according to a balanced IPA profile. You have to keep in mind your specific system efficiency and boil off ratio. I ended up with 5 gal at 1.072. Don't forget that all those hops are going to suck up a ton of wort. If using Beersmith, try using the percentages listed with your equipment profile to get that 1.072-1.074 OG for 5gal.

Regarding the Apollo, I read it as all 3 of those 10min.

I believe the dry hop sucked up another gal of beer, so it's a pretty expensive beer for 4 finished gallons.

Oh, yes. For some reason I forgot that maybe you could be getting a different efficiency.

 

[lilbova3]

Hot damn, so their 10bbl scaled down to 5 gal is 7 oz hop stand and 8 oz dry hop.

That's a butt load of late hops isn't it!?

 

[abbysdad2006]

Hey, all.

FruityHops sent me a msg the other day, but I'm still catching up from HomebrewCon2016 and just responded today and then see this thread. Anyway, I got the recipe for this directly from Noah Bissell. Here is what I put together based on what he told me.

OG:1.070

-1.074

Fermentables
15lbs Golden Promise malt(75%)
2lbs American 2-row(10%)
2lbs Flaked wheat(10%)
1lbs dextrose(5%)

Hops
-10min - .25oz Apollo
-10min - 1oz Mosaic
-10min - 1oz Simcoe
Flameout - 3oz Citra(30min hotstand/whirlpool)
Flameout - 3oz Mosaic(30min hotstand/whirlpool)
Flameout - 1oz Simcoe(30min hotstand/whirlpool)
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Apollo
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Citra
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Mosaic
Dryhop 1 - 1oz Simcoe
Dryhop 2 - 2oz Mosaic
Dryhop 2 - 2oz Citra
Dryhop 2 - 1oz Simcoe

Yeast
Wyeast 1056 American Ale or Conan

Mash at 151°, be sure to have a mash PH of 5.2

Boil for 75min

After dry hop, cold crash to about 35° and let settle for a few days to week.
​

I've made this recipe twice now and it's been excellent both times. First time I made it with Conan yeast. The second time with White Labs Hansen Ale yeast(from the Yeast Vault.) We liked the Hansen one a bit better. Leave time for the dry hop and yeast to settle at cold temps. You can see pics and reviews of my Hansen batch here https://untappd.com/b/cat3brewing-cindy-swishes/1571791

Hi, when you emailed Noah Bissell, what did you ask him? I'm looking for a little help on a Reciprocal or Lux recipe, and do you still have his email?

Thanks

 

[abbysdad2006]

Their website and page for Swish, does not list 2-Row anymore!! Just Golden Promise and Flaked Wheat.

 

[FruityHops]

Their website and page for Swish, does not list 2-Row anymore!! Just Golden Promise and Flaked Wheat.

Wow, you're right. Presumably they dropped the 2-row completely since it was mostly golden promise before anyway. Interesting

 

[abbysdad2006]

Wow, you're right. Presumably they dropped the 2-row completely since it was mostly golden promise before anyway. Interesting

Right. Do you think there is still dextrose in there?

 

[FruityHops]

Right. Do you think there is still dextrose in there?

I think so, it would be very hard to keep the proper OG and FG numbers without dextrose. It was not listed on the site before the change either, but apparently it was in there.

 

[WWJPD]

I would agree, I'm sure there's corn sugar in there to get the numbers up and dry it out.

Regarding Lux, I brewed a clone back in June. I used 70% 2-row, 25% rye and 5% Crystal 40L. For hops I used Centennial(30min) and Mosaic(5min) then more of the same for whirlpool and dry hop. I used a whole bunch, but still felt it was lacking in aroma. Also, the SRM was a bit too dark for what I thought it should be at around 7.

 

[sheikyerbouti]

Has anyone attempted brewing this yet?

 

[lilbova3]

It's my next in line beer to brew, hops wise not everything will be an exact clone, but won't be for awhile as I'm getting ready to fill my kegs with a different NE pale ale and then a sweet potato Porter!

My recipe will include all the hops but Apollo because I couldn't get any, it'll be a pale ale version only coming in at 5.9% and a slightly different grain bill. I'm looking forward to trying the hop combo.

 

[Brewmance]

Bump. How did this come out? What Recipe did you use? Eager to try, excellent beer.

 

[lilbova3]

Bump. How did this come out? What Recipe did you use? Eager to try, excellent beer.

It came out pretty good. It took awhile to mellow and once it did mellow it still wasn't one of my favorites I've ever brewed. Not bad at all but just not my favorite. I prefer a little more juicy and tropical for the style.

I used Simcoe, Mosaic and Citra for my beer. No Apollo as I stated earlier because I couldn't get it. The beer was very resiny, which I don't mind but was almost over the top. The resin mellowed with some conditioning. I got a little dank, pine and citrus. I couldn't put my finger on it at first but think I got some of that cat pee as well from the Simcoe. If I was to rebrew with these hops, which I think is a great combo together if used a little differently, I'd go heavier on the Mosaic and Citra. Maybe 75-80% of the hops being Mosaic and Citra and Simcoe to be a very small supporter. But again, that's just for me. We all prefer things different.

 

[JoeMamasIPA]

Thats too bad the brew wasn't that as good as hoped, but I would't point the finger too strongly at Simcoe, I get heavy resin with Citra when dosing is high. Also, my memory might be failing but I remember Swish being pretty dank/resiny. I agree though, I like the NEIPA style more on the tropical side of things.

 

[troxerX]

After @armarino shared this post, I brewed a 3 gallon batch version of the recipe that WWJPD posted and the beer was amazing, I had to use azacca hops since I could not find apollo. The WY1056 did a nice job attenuating to 1.011 and the hazyness was super!, definitively recommend everyone giving it a try. For water adjustments try reaching 200 ppms sulfate and chloride with plenty of calcium. I have pictures posted on instagram under #juguitocoreneipa . This recipe is a must if you are a hop head! cheers

 

[troxerX]

Also I just brewed a batch #2 today and added a small amount of bravo and motueka to the mix, also changed the grains to 90% golden promise

 

[lilbova3]

Thats too bad the brew wasn't that as good as hoped, but I would't point the finger too strongly at Simcoe, I get heavy resin with Citra when dosing is high. Also, my memory might be failing but I remember Swish being pretty dank/resiny. I agree though, I like the NEIPA style more on the tropical side of things.

Good point on the Citra. I've never had Swish so that's why I brewed it. That's what you gotta love about homebrewing, making things you can't get.

 

[troxerX]

Just bottled my third batch of the recipe posted which I used WL007 and triple dryhopped with mosaic, citra and simcoe. Mashed at about 156F and finished on target at 1.014, the aroma is a blast and haziness spot on!, including picture below

 

[troxerX]

This was @WWJPD recipe BIAB with gp, flaked wheat and 2-row, and some (1oz) amarillo at flameout (in addition to the other hops), also triple dry hopped where the 1st dry hop (mosaic, citra and simcoe) was added right in the middle of ferm, 2nd dry hop right after ferm was done and included cascade (in addition to other hops), and the last dry hop (mosaic, citra and simcoe) added afterwards. All dry hops were thrown in every time in a muslin bag tied with a string and lasted NMT 5 days each (pulled string to get hops out of beer every time, pic below with three hanging balls after the last dry hop was pulled a.k.a triple scrotum!. Yeasts were WL007 and S05 both added right after wort chill, since I mashed high, the S05 was intended to make sure every bit of ferms were consumed, FG was spot on juicy (1.014) since my first attempt came up a little dry to my taste (1.011). This one came out with killer aroma of ripe peaches, mango, guava and citrus and the uncarbonated gravity sample taste was phenomenal that I just drank the entire sample, very excited to crack the 1st bottle 2 weeks from now!, cheers!

 

[troxerX]

Carboy pic to show color under light conditions

 

[bg1414]

After @armarino shared this post, I brewed a 3 gallon batch version of the recipe that WWJPD posted and the beer was amazing, I had to use azacca hops since I could not find apollo. The WY1056 did a nice job attenuating to 1.011 and the hazyness was super!, definitively recommend everyone giving it a try. For water adjustments try reaching 200 ppms sulfate and chloride with plenty of calcium. I have pictures posted on instagram under #juguitocoreneipa . This recipe is a must if you are a hop head! cheers

did you do your 0.25 oz apollo (azacca) addition at 10 min or 75min? I'm going to brew this up soon. Thanks

 

[troxerX]

added azacca at around 10 min

 

[bg1414]

cool thanks. I brewed it Saturday. We'll see how it comes out.

 

[MJBrowny21]

Just kegged this tonight. Took my fg and hit 1015. I whirlpooled at 170 for 30 minutes. I used yeast I built up from a can of swish. When I tasted it mine had amazing color and aroma but the bitterness was so overpowering. Anybody else have this?

 

[bg1414]

if you just kegged it's still young. did you cold crash? could just be tasting hop particles that haven't settled. I've done that before.

 

[MJBrowny21]

I did not cold crash it. It did have the most dry hops I've ever put in a beer before.

 

[lilbova3]

I did not cold crash it. It did have the most dry hops I've ever put in a beer before.

That's the harshness/bitterness you're getting right now. Give it a week and it will get better. I always get it with my hoppy beers but I can't wait a week to start drinking it. So by the time it's hitting stride, it's only half full.

 

[bg1414]

Kegged mine yesterday. It looks great. The taste and aroma is pretty amazing too.

 

[Tricerahops220]

FWIW, they have some of their iterations of their different recipes on the bathroom walls at the Brewery. I snapped a picture of the one that notes for swish on it (I know, I'm strange like that) but here is what it says. Don't know how much help it will be but here

Grain Bill
66.7% Breiss RW (cant figure out what RW is)
14.8% Munich
18.5% Golden Promise

2.5 parts Mosaic @ 10 Mins
2.5 parts Citra @ 10 Mins
2 parts Simcoe @ 10 Mins

1 Part Simcoe @0 Mins
1 Part Apollo @0 Mins

DH
20 parts Citra
15 parts Mosaic
10 parts Simcoe
5 parts Apollo

 

[hezagenius]

66.7% Breiss RW (cant figure out what RW is)

Red Wheat?

 

[grassfeeder]

FWIW, they have some of their iterations of their different recipes on the bathroom walls at the Brewery. I snapped a picture of the one that notes for swish on it (I know, I'm strange like that) but here is what it says. Don't know how much help it will be but here

Grain Bill
66.7% Breiss RW (cant figure out what RW is)
14.8% Munich
18.5% Golden Promise

2.5 parts Mosaic @ 10 Mins
2.5 parts Citra @ 10 Mins
2 parts Simcoe @ 10 Mins

1 Part Simcoe @0 Mins
1 Part Apollo @0 Mins

DH
20 parts Citra
15 parts Mosaic
10 parts Simcoe
5 parts Apollo

Thats for sure got to be a very old iteration of the recipe. that much red wheat is certainly not there now.

 

[Rehlgood]

I'm brewing this on Saturday, does anyone know what the IBUs should be?

 

[WWJPD]

I'm brewing this on Saturday, does anyone know what the IBUs should be?

Untappd says 80, but it's really hard to tell due to the massive amount of whirlpool hops and not knowing how much they get isomerized.