Oktoberfest marzen

[ApolloSpeed]

ok....so in theory, start by warming the pot to 145. And let the grains soak for 30 minutes.....then slowly the the grain to 160 for 30 minutes.

All of this while the grain is still in the pot right?

And then take the grain out, and put into another pot at 170-178 for the teabagging...aka Sparge?

Is that right?

 

[Couevas]

I am not sure what you are trying to do. Are you attempting your first all-grain? If so, I wouldn't recommend a step mash. If you still want to, do a search for "Brew in a Bag." You will need something to strain the grain out of the wort (false bottom, braid, grain bag, etc.)

 

[ApolloSpeed]

I've done a couple all grains before....

I'm just trying to get everything under my belt as to what I'm doing. I kinda used DeathBrewers Easy allgrain method. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/easy-stovetop-all-grain-brewing-pics-90132/

Worked fairly well....but my efficiency just kinda sucks. I always get around 60-65% I've hit 70% a couple times with mini-mashes....but never with AG.

I think I'm about to try using a Mash Tun, I just need to get everything straight before I start building. I'm still undecided which Tun to make yet.

I just wanna make a good Oktoberfest like Sam Adams or Spaten damnit!! hahaha

 

[Kaiser]

If you are going for a single infusion, don't use a rest temp of 145F. The resulting wort will be too fermentable and the conversion may also take longer than 60 min. For a single infusion you would use 150F.

But there is nothing wrong with stove top mashing. I have been doing this for my last few batches and I really like it. If the mash is thin enough (which it generally should be for German styles) you won't have trouble stirring it during heating. And the rests can easily be held by wrapping the pot in a blanket or two. There is also no problem hitting the rest temps precisely since you slowly approach them and when they are reached you can remove the pot from the burner. This is how home mashing is commonly done in Germany.

Kai

 

[balto charlie]

I finally brewed this baby yesterday. I did a double decoction. It is bubbling away in the 50F basement "cold" room. Hopefully temps will hold for the next 10 days or so. OG was 1.060
Final recipe:
6 lbs Munich light
3 lbs Pils
2 lbs Vienna
.5lb carapils
1 oz Mt Hod(60min)
.5 oz Hallertauer (30Min)
German Bock lager yeast (WLP 833)I read this yeast gives a less sweet flavor. We shall see. Thanks for all the advice and will post when the flavor test is complete.

 

[Couevas]

This is about the same as the one I plan to brew.

Kai

So Kai,

What is your actual recipe?

 

[Kaiser]

So Kai,

What is your actual recipe?

50% light munich
50% vienna

mash with the double decoction that boils 60% of the mash. I don't know yet what sacc rest temp I will be using as I'll have to look at my notes for that.

60 min boil w/o hops added shortly before the start of the boil. For the amount of hops I'll have to look at notes from previous beers.

Ferment with WY2206

I haven't brewed this recipe yet and so I only know the rough outline.

Kai

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

What kind of attenuation do you typically get with WY2206?

I ask because this Yeast Comparison chart says that both the WY2206 and White Labs WLP820 are the same yeast...it also says that they are the Weihenstephan 206 strain. But Wyeast lists the attenuation as 73%-77% and White lists it as 65%-73%...which is a significant difference considering it's supposedly the same strain.

I have used the WLP820 recently and got ~73% (OG - 1.054, FG 1.0145)...which based on my mash (decoction with 150 F sacc rest) should be at the high end of attenuation limit. That brew (Vienna Lager) is a malt bomb right now...maybe it just needs time...it is a bit young.

 

[Kaiser]

SpanishCastleAle,

Forget about those attenuation numbers on the WY and WL web sites. They are misleading. Instead read this: http://braukaiser.com/wiki/index.php?title=Understanding_Attenuation

Since I always do the fast ferment test, I know what part of attenuation comes from the yeast and what comes from mashing. My experiences with WY2206 is that it has a hard time getting the last sugars and it likes to leave a difference of 3-5% between the limit of attenuation (FFT) and the actual beer attenuation. If I want to get it closer to the limit of attenuation, i.e. less residual fermentable sugars, I have to keep the beer on the yeast for a long time and/or warm it up quite a bit. But now that I have the WLP830 in my library I’ll be using this for beers where I want a low amount of residual fermentable sugars (Pilsners for example).

But the more malt oriented Bavarian beers need this residual amount of fermentable sugars and the WY2206 works best for them.

Kai

 

[macabra11]

Decoction Mash, Double​

Step Time
Name
Description
Step Temp
10 min
dough in
Add 22.00 qt of water at 139.6 F
134.0 F
90 min
Saccharification
Decoct 7.83 qt of mash and boil it
158.0 F
10 min
Mash Out
Decoct 4.71 qt of mash and boil it
168.0 F
​

[/CENTER]

I am trying to understand this double decoction process for an Oktoberfest I am brewing this weekend (very similar to your recipe). I would like to use this double decoction schedule but want to make sure I understand.

1. Heat 22 Qt water to 139.6 F and add grains, stir, let rest 10 mins
2. Take out 7.83 Qt of grain and boil for 30 min, then add back to mash to raise temp to 158º for 90 min
3. Take out 4.71 Qt of grain, boil for 30 min, add back to mash to raise temp to 168º for 10 min
4. Sparge with 3.4 gal water at 170º

Does all that seem right? Please let me know!

 

[macabra11]

*bump* Anybody? Does that look right for a double decoction? Am I understanding it correctly?

 

[SpanishCastleAle]

I'll give it a stab but I'm just trying to help you decipher what I think that decoction is doing...I'm not saying you should do a decoction this way but you'll get a ton of differing opinions on that.

First, you will have to adjust some things to make it right for your grain bill and your equipment. Decoctions take a little dialing in for each individual set-up. For example, using 22 qt. of 139.6 F water may or may not get you a rest temp of 134 F.

Also, when adding these hot liquids back to the mash do it in steps, stirring between each step, and monitor the temp to make sure you don't overshoot. If you reach your target temp and still have hot liquid left you'll have wait for it to cool (or cool it somehow) before adding the remainder.

1. Heat 22 Qt water to 139.6 F and add grains, stir, let rest 10 mins.
As mentioned you may have to adjust that strike water temp and you don't really need to rest for 10 minutes...once fully mixed you could start pulling the decoction immediately.
2. Take out 7.83 Qt of grain and boil for 30 min, then add back to mash to raise temp to 158º for 90 min.
Don't worry about getting that exact volume, anywhere between 7.5-8 qt. should be close enough. You should convert the decoction first (just a quick, crude conversion...don't worry if it's not fully converted because you'll get it later) by raising it's temp to 158-160 F and resting there for 10 minutes or so...then boil it for 30 minutes. This decoction should be thick (mostly grain, I use a kitchen hand strainer) but not so thick you can't boil it without scorching, you may have to add some water during the boil to prevent it from getting too thick. IMO, 158 F is too hot and/or 90 minutes is too long. At that temp it'll convert in 10 minutes and make for a very dextrinous wort (which the decoction already does anyway). I would rest at a lower temp, prob no higher than 153 F and only for 60 minutes max.
3. Take out 4.71 Qt of grain, boil for 30 min, add back to mash to raise temp to 168º for 10 min.
This decoction should be thin (mostly if not all liquid, I press a collander down into the mash and scoop out from inside that) and you don't really need to boil it 30 minutes...just to a good hot break is fine...10 minutes or so.
4. Sparge with 3.4 gal water at 170º
Standard but you might have to adjust your volume.

HTH!

 

[macabra11]

Thanks SpanishCastleAle, that helps a lot. So does something like this sound better?
1. Heat 22 Qt water to 144º, add grains (11.5 lbs) and stir well to achieve 135º
2. Decoct 7.5-8 Qt thick grains, raise temp to 158º, rest 10 min, then boil for 30 min
3. Add decoction slowly back to MLT to get 153º without going over, rest for 60 min
4. Decoct 4.5-5 Qt wort, boil for 10 min, add back to MLT and rest 10 min
5. Sparge with 3.4 gal 170º water, or enough to collect 6.5 gal wort