Ok, I'm not just being paranoid about infections...

[cheeseshark]

Well, if anyone is interested, I tasted both of my batches after my replace plastic/bleach glass offensive against infections. Both tasted good. The all grain tasted REALLY good. The extract was so-so, but no off flavors or anything like that.

So, we'll see - the infections in the past did not rear their ugly head until about 2 months in the bottle - these are at 4 1/2 weeks.

 

[cheeseshark]

Well, both batches of my recent beer are strongly sour. They tasted a hint of sour last week, but I tried to convince myself that I was imagining it. I'm not. They taste disgusting. No real flavor / body other than the sour. It is not an overwhelming sour taste, but that is all you taste.

So, mother effer times 100,000. I am actually quite depressed about this, and at a total loss. I don't know what else I could possibly do.

Summary of what I have already done:
1. Beer started getting infections. Would generally taste fine out of fermenters (except once), but would turn bad in bottles (sour taste usually, also smoky once, and several gusher problems).
2. Fought infection by switching to star san for sanitizing (oxy clean for cleaning). Replaced all plastic. Used PBW on carboys, then bleached them. I even got new bottles.
3. Brewed 2 new batches. Tasted fine out of fermenters and after a month in bottles. Tasted sour after 1 1/2 months in bottle.

I mean, I REALLY don't know what else I could do. I don't want to throw away any more money, but I also want to make some beer that is good.

 

[Revvy]

How do you clean & sanitize your autosiphon?

Have you dismantled and cleaned/sanitized your spigot?

sometimes it's in the smallest crevices that the microparticles hide.

Have you checked your bottling bucket for scratches?

 

[cheeseshark]

How do you clean & sanitize your autosiphon?

Have you dismantled and cleaned/sanitized your spigot?

sometimes it's in the smallest crevices that the microparticles hide.

Have you checked your bottling bucket for scratches?

I replaced all my plastic, autosiphon and bottling bucket / bottling bucket spigot included. I had not used a spigot on my brew pot in the past, but on these batches I used one, but it was new.

 

[llazy_llama]

Someone on HBT once claimed (and this is second hand, and not verified AT ALL) that their air conditioning unit became infected with Lactobacillus, which was then spread to all of their future brews until they changed their air filters and sanitized their whole A/C unit.

This may very well be BS, but honestly, if I was in your shoes, I would be willing to drink straight shots of Star San to clean up my brewery. It's just a thought, and probably not a great one, but I'd hate to see you suffer from any more infections.

 

[cheeseshark]

Someone on HBT once claimed (and this is second hand, and not verified AT ALL) that their air conditioning unit became infected with Lactobacillus, which was then spread to all of their future brews until they changed their air filters and sanitized their whole A/C unit.

This may very well be BS, but honestly, if I was in your shoes, I would be willing to drink straight shots of Star San to clean up my brewery. It's just a thought, and probably not a great one, but I'd hate to see you suffer from any more infections.

Yeah, I think I may have read that thread. I turned off my furnace while brewing / bottling to try and reduce any air contaminants. I don't know if I'm ready to brew again just off changing my furnace filters. Not slamming your idea, mind you, because I sure don't have any better ones.

Edit - Of course, nothing is really going to guarantee a lack of infection at this point. I really have to think it is something floating around in the air at this point, since I basically had all new equipment.

 

[mat_890]

I don't sanitize half as much as you do and i have never had an infected batch of anything in the past year...mind you i just started making beer.

On to why i posted...

When i first moved into my house I set my winery (I never made beer at this point) in the basement. Everything I made went bad, which for those of you who don't make wine you must understand is a challenge. I fixed the problem by making it upstairs and thought it must be the dampness and dust in the basement. A few years later I helped remodel and build a room down there, behind the drywall were wine posters for different kit manufactures. As it turns out the previous owner was a home brewer as well.

What does it mean? No idea. I think that he was experimenting with MLF or maybe he spilled a large amount of wine in the carpet and wine spoilage bacteria are still breeding. Maybe that has nothing to do with it and its actually just the dust. I don't know. Seems like a weird coincidence.

I still can't brew or make wine in the basement. Although I don't have access to no rinse sanitizers at a reasonable cost.

If your really want to make beer try a complete change of scenery. Try and brew it outdoors or maybe your friends place.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

I got hit with pedio infection due to AC a few years back.

Do you see anything on top of the beer? Lacto and ped usually leave some sort of white film on top.

 

[kornkob]

I suggest this: find another nearby brewer and ask if you can take your gear to their house to brew a batch. Then have them WATCH (and watch only-- no helping) while you brew the batch.

They are looking for where your process introduces a contaminant--- you might not even be aware of your behavior.


By doing it at their house you have eliminated your hosue as the infection source.

 

[cheeseshark]

I got hit with pedio infection due to AC a few years back.

Do you see anything on top of the beer? Lacto and ped usually leave some sort of white film on top.

Yeah, I saw your mention of that in an old thread. No, I saw no white film on the beer. But, are there any other bugs that would cause the strong sour taste?

 

[cheeseshark]

I suggest this: find another nearby brewer and ask if you can take your gear to their house to brew a batch. Then have them WATCH (and watch only-- no helping) while you brew the batch.

They are looking for where your process introduces a contaminant--- you might not even be aware of your behavior.


By doing it at their house you have eliminated your hosue as the infection source.

Yeah, that is really about the only thing I thought of that was left to try. I have literally lost sleep over this - it is not something I want to give up, but I don't want to keep throwing away money on ingredients, either.

What do people think about maybe something living in my glass carboys? I don't see any scratches, and I bleached them, but everything else was replaced. I thought of maybe just using a new ale pail and see what might happen, but I think the new brew place might be a better place to try.

One other thing, reference the basement (where I usually ferment / bottle condition and keep my equipment). Do people think there is much of a chance of the basement causing the problem? I mean, I brew upstairs or outside, once anything is in the basement, the airlock is on or the beer is capped.... Any thoughts?

This is just soooo frustrating. So many people seem to have little to zero problems with infections, and mine turns sour seemingly at the drop of a hat... I mean, when people INTENTIONALLY sour beer, it takes longer than it takes for mine to turn sour unintentionally. Ok, end of whine.

Thanks for all the help so far everyone....

 

[slimer]

I only ferment in the basement. Everything else is done upstairs/outside.

One more thing. I don't use an autosiphon. I have a regular old siphon and I use a turkey baster with the end cut off to siphon. That way I can take everything apart and make sure it's sanitized. I just suck until it fills the bottom of the turkey baster, disconnect, and it flows.

Something else: have you brewed with Brett or Lacto?

 

[cheeseshark]

I only ferment in the basement. Everything else is done upstairs/outside.

One more thing. I don't use an autosiphon. I have a regular old siphon and I use a turkey baster with the end cut off to siphon. That way I can take everything apart and make sure it's sanitized. I just suck until it fills the bottom of the turkey baster, disconnect, and it flows.

Something else: have you brewed with Brett or Lacto?

Nope, I have never brewed with Brett or Lacto...

My autosiphon for these batches was brand new, too.

 

[killian]

to me it sounds like you are picking this up at bottling. I had an infection with a batch a while back and it turned out to be when I was bottling I was using a bottling bucket and no lid so the beer was sitting out in the open air while bottling. I would recommend using a corny keg to bottle.

 

[cheeseshark]

Ok, after reading everyone's contributions and thinking about it, I have come up with a few options. What does everyone think?

1. Find a new hobby.

2. Brew at someone else's house using my equipment, and try to find another brewer to watch (testing theory that there is something specific to my house causing the repeated problems and/or that I'm an idiot - by the way, I'm sure a lot of people reading this thread probably have thought that I'm an idiot and am missing some super obvious part of sanitation, but I really think I'm pretty darn careful about sanitation).

3. Brew at my house using a friend's ale pail (testing theory that the infections are somehow caused by my glass carboys - a stretch I know, but I'm running out of ideas here - and keeping in my mind that I replaced pretty much all my equipment except mash tun, and one of the latest infected batches was an extract batch).

4. Buy an air cleaner, buy some nice furnace filters and brew using my same equipment (testing theory that the infections are airborne - I figure this option would not hurt, regardless).

5. Give up bottling, transfer straight from primary to keg (testing theory that the infections are somehow related to bottling). Caveat on this one - I have never kegged, don't own any kegging equipment, so I would be running the danger of buying new equipment just to infect it.

That's all I have...

Did I mention this sucks? I really, really want to make some beer today - but no use wasting money on ingredients. I have the next few days off, too...

 

[flyangler18]

On the off-chance that you might have inadvertently introduced lacto during transfer, do you mill your grain in close proximity to your fermenters?

Also, can you document your steps when transferring from primary to the bottling bucket just in case something stands out? Be as specific and detailed as possible.

 

[cheeseshark]

On the off-chance that you might have inadvertently introduced lacto during transfer, do you mill your grain in close proximity to your fermenters?

Also, can you document your steps when transferring from primary to the bottling bucket just in case something stands out? Be as specific and detailed as possible.

No, I don't mill grain near my fermenters.

Primary to bottling procedure:
-Move primary (airlock still attached) from basement to kitchen counter. Let sit about an hour (I usually wrap a clean towel around it to keep sun out).
-Put autosiphon, spigot (which was brand new this time - but I put the spigot, washers, and nut in the sanitizer bucket separately), and tubing in sanitizer bucket full of Star San. Run sanitizer through autosiphon, tubing, and spigot.
-Let that sit for 2 minutes.
-Dump some of sanitizer in bottling bucket, shake it around (obviously it spills out since there is a hole in bucket for spigot).
-Attach spigot. Dump most of sanitizer in bottlling bucket (leaving autosiphon and tubing in sanitizing bucket with some sanitizer). Let sit for about 5 minutes. Drain some sanitizer through spigot. Close spigot. Dump out rest of sanitizer.
-Take airlock out of fermenter. Put autosiphon in fermenter. Attach tubing. Put tubing in bottling bucket. This last time I then put sanitized plastic wrap on the top of the bottling bucket, taking care to cover it completely. Before that, I used a lid (both ways, yielding infected beer)
-Dump in sugar / water which was boiled for five minutes.
-Start autosiphon.
-While that is going, sanitize clean bottles in star san for 2 minutes per batch. Caps are also sanitized in star san for 2 minutes. Bottling wand also goes in there, taken apart.
-Spray spigot with spray bottle of star san. Attach tubing and bottling wand to spigot. Fill bottles. I place caps on bottles as I go along, then actually cap them after they are all filled.

 

[kornkob]

(testing theory that there is something specific to my house causing the repeated problems and/or that I'm an idiot - by the way, I'm sure a lot of people reading this thread probably have thought that I'm an idiot and am missing some super obvious part of sanitation, but I really think I'm pretty darn careful about sanitation).

It's not about being an idiot or not being careful. I'm just thinking that there is possibly an unconscious habit that you have.

Or an environmental factor.

Another way to check your process: carefully document it--- with pictures taken by a non-brewer. Often times when you are forced to describe in detail and educate someone on a process, you will be much more aware of what it is you do.

 

[flyangler18]

Do you run a kitchen fan or have any obvious drafts during bottling?

Are you washing your bottles prior to sanitizing?

 

[cheeseshark]

Do you run a kitchen fan or have any obvious drafts during bottling?

Are you washing your bottles prior to sanitizing?

Well, on this last set of batches, I turned off the furnace about an hour before starting. No on the kitchen fan.

I wash my bottles in Oxy Clean.

 

[flyangler18]

I wash my bottles in Oxy Clean.

Rinsing? If not, the foul taste may be attributed to chlorophenols.

 

[cheeseshark]

Rinsing? If not, the foul taste may be attributed to chlorophenols.

Yes on the rinsing.

 

[chumprock]

If it takes about two months for the sour to appear your solution would be to drink it faster!

Do you top off with water? where does the water you brew with come from?
Have you tried brewing with bottled water?

 

[cheeseshark]

If it takes about two months for the sour to appear your solution would be to drink it faster!

Do you top off with water? where does the water you brew with come from?
Have you tried brewing with bottled water?

No on the topping off. I do full boils. I use tap water, but it is all boiled since I do full boils.

 

[de_ronde]

How do you clean the bottles? Hot Oxy Clean Solution and a bottle brush?
How are they being dried? Upside down in the dishwasher or do you have a bottle tree?

How are you using the star san with the bottles?

If your last batch tasted fine while racking out of the secondary... I'd be worried about something in the bottles.

I have never had an infection. I think that I am fairly diligent about bottle cleaning / sanitation.

My process:

1 - 2 days before bottling day, pre-wash all bottles with Oxy Clean and a bottle brush to make sure that they are label free, clear, and have nothing lurking in them. I put them on a bottle tree to dry.

On bottling day, I wash all bottles inside and out with Oxy Clean and use a bottle jet washer with hot water to blast them all out with super hot water.

I then sanitize the inside with no rinse sanitizer using a Vinator bottle rinser.

They sit upside down in the sanitized dishwasher while bottling.

 

[cheeseshark]

How do you clean the bottles? Hot Oxy Clean Solution and a bottle brush?
How are they being dried? Upside down in the dishwasher or do you have a bottle tree?

How are you using the star san with the bottles?

If your last batch tasted fine while racking out of the secondary... I'd be worried about something in the bottles.

I have never had an infection. I think that I am fairly diligent about bottle cleaning / sanitation.

My process:

1 - 2 days before bottling day, pre-wash all bottles with Oxy Clean and a bottle brush to make sure that they are label free, clear, and have nothing lurking in them. I put them on a bottle tree to dry.

On bottling day, I wash all bottles inside and out with Oxy Clean and use a bottle jet washer with hot water to blast them all out with super hot water.

I then sanitize the inside with no rinse sanitizer using a Vinator bottle rinser.

They sit upside down in the sanitized dishwasher while bottling.

Thanks for the tips on your bottling procedure. I only clean once, but given my current situation, a second time sure could not hurt!!.

As far as how I use the star san for sanitizng, I dip each batch of bottles in a bucket full of star san for 2 minutes each. I'll also add that some of the bottles on these recently infected batches were brand new, never used (I still sanitized, but I'm just saying the chances of bad things lurking seems less).

And, yes, I use a bottling tree to dry.

 

[killian]

I was talking with a microbiologist I know and he was saying something about how he uses his turkey fryer to reduce the potential contaminants in the air.

I am in no way recommending this just relaying info.

 

[Denny's Evil Concoctions]

Rinsing? If not, the foul taste may be attributed to chlorophenols.

Chlorphenols are from chlorine, not oxyclean.

I personally think that you have airborne contaminants. Is it dusty in your bottling room?

Try spraying a bit of sulfite/water onto the top of the bucket before bottling.

 

[flyangler18]

Chlorphenols are from chlorine, not oxyclean.

Yeah, but the OP has also been using bleach to knock out the infection. Just exploring some possibilities.

While not chlorine, I'm sure unrinsed oxyclean will have some foul tasting flavors of its own.

 

[EvilTOJ]

Ah, this thread again I was hoping your issue was resolved. I must say that even after my bleach holocaust, I was still getting ruined batches. I finally solved my dilemma by moving. I'm pretty certain I had airborne contaminates. Now, I'm not saying you have to move or possibly burn your place down, but I think bottling or racking should be done in an entirely new place than what you've been using before. Does the air in your place have any odor at all? My apartment always stank because my roommate had a dog and he (OK WE) was a slob.

Ooo try this: Make a small beer, maybe a SMaSH with a little bit of hops to it and a cheap packet of muntons. I'm talkin cheap as hell since this'll be for experimentation. After it's done boiling, rack and cool into several gallon jugs and let it ferment away in the jugs. Then bottle in several different locations, one jug in the kitchen, one in the garage, one for outside (?) or anywhere else you can think you'll be able to bottle. Mark the bottles as to what location you bottled in and let em sit. Drink cheap whisky while you wait for them to bottle condition. Then test.