Official Lambic.Info thread

[jmgrub]

http://www.talkbeer.com/community/threads/lambic-discussion-thread.1406/page-376#post-851018

Thanks, and that would have been a better place to post my question.

 

[JulianB1]

First chance I had to use the glass!

 

[NAD1983]

I've got a head scratcher here. The topic of OGV came up at a tasting last night and my buddy said he had a 1998 OGV that he traded for back in the day. We all assumed he was referring to the 50th anniversary but that is definitely not the case.

He traded for it with someone from Brussels awhile back (not sure exactly when) and it is a 750 mL with the night lights label and a bottle date of 2/21/1998. It's definitely not in the bottle log but after doing some research I've been seeing references to 1998, 1999 and 2001 as well. Any ideas SeaWatchman?

 

[SeaWatchman]

Huh. Gonna have to defer to callmemickey on this one. Not entirely sure what's going on there.

 

[Forgetfu]

I've got a head scratcher here. The topic of OGV came up at a tasting last night and my buddy said he had a 1998 OGV that he traded for back in the day. We all assumed he was referring to the 50th anniversary but that is definitely not the case.

He traded for it with someone from Brussels awhile back (not sure exactly when) and it is a 750 mL with the night lights label and a bottle date of 2/21/1998. It's definitely not in the bottle log but after doing some research I've been seeing references to 1998, 1999 and 2001 as well. Any ideas SeaWatchman?

I was just talking about this bottle with someone else. My bet is that it's 21/2/2004.

I'm confident that OGV didn't start before 2002. Also, that isn't the date or the label for the 98 50th anniversary. But it does match the month and day for the 2004 bottling. Not only that, many of the 2004's were hand-dated, and it wouldn't surprise me if someone just wasn't thinking and wrote the wrong year. That's a much more likely scenario then it being a weird 1998 OGV or a mis-dated 50th anniversary using the wrong label.

 

[callmemickey]

I've got a head scratcher here. The topic of OGV came up at a tasting last night and my buddy said he had a 1998 OGV that he traded for back in the day. We all assumed he was referring to the 50th anniversary but that is definitely not the case.

He traded for it with someone from Brussels awhile back (not sure exactly when) and it is a 750 mL with the night lights label and a bottle date of 2/21/1998. It's definitely not in the bottle log but after doing some research I've been seeing references to 1998, 1999 and 2001 as well. Any ideas SeaWatchman?

I hate to be the one that suggests this, but you/your buddy probably got hosed and someone just picked a date and wrote it. The first vintages of OGV were in 2002 (and were first released in 2006). Also, the date (Feb 21 1998) precedes the date of 50th Anniv. Geuze (Nov 21 1998) which was the first use of the Nightlights label. Moreover, the handwriting is inconsistent with the way (most) Belgians (and Armand) write the number "1" with the long slash:

Mind sharing a photo of the cork?

 

[callmemickey]

it wouldn't surprise me if someone just wasn't thinking and wrote the wrong year

ehhh... accidentally writing 1998 instead of 2004? I don't buy that.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Good call with the handwriting. That is most certainly no European-style handwriting.

 

[gueuzedreg]

I thought the same thing with the handwriting. Not every European's handwriting looks the same, but it does look very American. Obviously there is a possibility of an American mislabeling the 2004 bottle. But the 02 OGV's that I have had look exactly like the picture above. Very distinct handwriting. Would love to see a couple different 2004 OGV handwritten labels if anyone has pictures to share...

 

[NAD1983]

Mind sharing a photo of the cork?

He said he will take a picture when he gets home from work tonight. I'll report back later.

ehhh... accidentally writing 1998 instead of 2004? I don't buy that.

I don't buy that either. I've accidentally written 2015 a few times this year but 2009 just isn't going to happen regardless of how drunk, tired, etc I am. It's either a new bottling or it was a deliberate forgery and I'm starting to think the latter.

 

[NAD1983]

I'm confident that OGV didn't start before 2002.

The first vintages of OGV were in 2002 (and were first released in 2006). Also, the date (

I'm curious where this information is coming from. Bottle logs? Armand?

Thanks to everyone for the info so far!

 

[callmemickey]

He said he will take a picture when he gets home from work tonight. I'll report back later.

It's either a new bottling or it was a deliberate forgery and I'm starting to think the latter.

The cork should help explain the origins of the bottle as the style of cork has changed over the years. If its a new bottle and someone forged the date, the cork will give it away. Similarly, if its an old bottle that Armand suddenly decided to release, the old style cork should also be an indicator.

 

[callmemickey]

I'm curious where this information is coming from. Bottle logs? Armand?

Thanks to everyone for the info so far!

Bottle logs, personal experience, reviews on Ratebeer/BeerAdvocate (both entries for OGV were added in early 2006), etc.

 

[callmemickey]

I thought the same thing with the handwriting. Not every European's handwriting looks the same, but it does look very American. Obviously there is a possibility of an American mislabeling the 2004 bottle. But the 02 OGV's that I have had look exactly like the picture above. Very distinct handwriting. Would love to see a couple different 2004 OGV handwritten labels if anyone has pictures to share...

some other handwritten bottles:

 

[markextrae]

https://www.lambic.info/3_Fonteinen_Oude_Geuze_Vintage

 

[Der Fuchs]

some other handwritten bottles:

all that proves is that the handwriting is wildly inconsistent. All three of those look to be written by different people. the first one should be obvious. Possibly the last 2 were written by people with similar handwriting (relatives), but the spacing between the 2 and 0 on the second pic doesn't match the third pic nor does the continuation of the 0s in the 2004 part of the third pic match the distinct spacing between the 20 and 20 on the second pic. It could be the same author but i doubt it.

 

[callmemickey]

all that proves is that the handwriting is wildly inconsistent. All three of those look to be written by different people. the first one should be obvious. Possibly the last 2 were written by people with similar handwriting (relatives), but the spacing between the 2 and 0 on the second pic doesn't match the third pic nor does the continuation of the 0s in the 2004 part of the third pic match the distinct spacing between the 20 and 20 on the second pic. It could be the same author but i doubt it.

Indeed, but if you look at the ones in each of the examples, you'll see the euro-style writing. Second, it's odd that the bottle in question doesn't have a best by date written.

 

[stupac2]

I don't buy that either. I've accidentally written 2015 a few times this year but 2009 just isn't going to happen regardless of how drunk, tired, etc I am. It's either a new bottling or it was a deliberate forgery and I'm starting to think the latter.

Well, that's not really the comparison here. From my understanding (and I may be wrong) most of these bottles are stored unlabeled. So they're not writing the date on them on that day, but rather years down the line when they're getting ready to be sold. Still, ******* up 2004 and 1998 requires more than that. So you can imagine, maybe, that they were labeling BOTH 50th Anniversary and 2004 OGV on the same day, and someone got too used to writing 1998 from the 50th and then screwed up this one bottle of 2004. But that's a pretty serious stretch. It's more likely that some jabroni decided to just write a date on it. Although, even then, going with 1998 is pretty audacious, given that anyone who's familiar with the OGV series knows it started in 2002.

If he got it in Brussels then the handwriting seems like a red herring to me, since if it was a forgery that means it was almost certainly still done by a European.

 

[Der Fuchs]

Well, that's not really the comparison here. From my understanding (and I may be wrong) most of these bottles are stored unlabeled. So they're not writing the date on them on that day, but rather years down the line when they're getting ready to be sold. Still, ******* up 2004 and 1998 requires more than that. So you can imagine, maybe, that they were labeling BOTH 50th Anniversary and 2004 OGV on the same day, and someone got too used to writing 1998 from the 50th and then screwed up this one bottle of 2004. But that's a pretty serious stretch. It's more likely that some jabroni decided to just write a date on it. Although, even then, going with 1998 is pretty audacious, given that anyone who's familiar with the OGV series knows it started in 2002.

If he got it in Brussels then the handwriting seems like a red herring to me, since if it was a forgery that means it was almost certainly still done by a European.

Another possibility is that it is the 50th and they ran out of labels for it and used the vintage label.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Another possibility is that it is the 50th and they ran out of labels for it and used the vintage label.

Why would the date be different then?

Also there was no Pajottenland Streekproduct on 3F bottles in 1998 AFAIK. That style logo started in 2002 with OGV bottles as well it seems.

 

[NAD1983]

Well, that's not really the comparison here. From my understanding (and I may be wrong) most of these bottles are stored unlabeled. So they're not writing the date on them on that day, but rather years down the line when they're getting ready to be sold. Still, ******* up 2004 and 1998 requires more than that. So you can imagine, maybe, that they were labeling BOTH 50th Anniversary and 2004 OGV on the same day, and someone got too used to writing 1998 from the 50th and then screwed up this one bottle of 2004. But that's a pretty serious stretch. It's more likely that some jabroni decided to just write a date on it. Although, even then, going with 1998 is pretty audacious, given that anyone who's familiar with the OGV series knows it started in 2002.

If he got it in Brussels then the handwriting seems like a red herring to me, since if it was a forgery that means it was almost certainly still done by a European.

Ya that's a possibility but like you said a pretty big stretch.

Is there any indication that certain bottling dates have both printed and handwritten labels? I could see it happening if they run out of printed labels but I haven't seen any indication that has happened in the past.

Multiple people are saying that this could possibly be the 2004 bottling date because the month and day match. But the bottle log shows a printed label...

 

[NAD1983]

Another possibility is that it is the 50th and they ran out of labels for it and used the vintage label.

50th Anniversary: 11/21/1998
Confirmed Bottling Date: 2/21/2004

Questionable Bottle: 2/21/1998

 

[Der Fuchs]

Why would the date be different then?

Also there was no Pajottenland Streekproduct on 3F bottles in 1998 AFAIK. That style logo started in 2002 with OGV bottles as well it seems.

I look at it this way. Both potential brews that could be in this bottle have a date that is one number away from its potential contents. Is it more likely a 2 was written instead of an 11 or a 1998 being written as 2004? I have also seen plenty of mislabeled/handwritten 3F labels over the years. Another possibility is that he has a special bottle what very few people know about. Test batch for OGV maybe? That may explain why there is no best buy date. Bottle reflects brew date and not bottling date? Maybe a 98 brew labeled at the same time as 02? Idk but any of this seems possible to me.

50th Anniversary: 11/21/1998
Confirmed Bottling Date: 2/21/2004

Questionable Bottle: 2/21/1998

Is the first 2 dates you listed the brew day and the bottling day for the same beer (50th)? Or is the 'confirmed bottling date' for OGV?

 

[callmemickey]

Bottle reflects brew date and not bottling date? Is the first 2 dates you listed the brew day and the bottling day for the same beer (50th)? Or is the 'confirmed bottling date' for OGV?

There is no "brew day" for gueuze as it is a blend of (at least) three different brews (years).

 

[callmemickey]

Another possibility is that it is the 50th and they ran out of labels for it and used the vintage label.

Unlikely, the 50th was bottled, labeled, and released well before the first OGV was even bottled.

 

[SeaWatchman]

Checked in with a friend at 3F. Definitely no such thing as OGV 98. More than likely a DIY from someone who got a hold of an undated label.

 

[NAD1983]

Checked in with a friend at 3F. Definitely no such thing as OGV 98. More than likely a DIY from someone who got a hold of an undated label.

That's unfortunate but what I expected at this point. He also received a 2002 and 2003 in the same trade, hopefully there aren't any questions about those too.

I'll update with pictures of the cork from the "98" and bottle pics of the 02/03 when I receive them.

 

[Der Fuchs]

There is no "brew day" for gueuze as it is a blend of (at least) three different brews (years).

I should have said lambic brew day.

Unlikely, the 50th was bottled, labeled, and released well before the first OGV was even bottled.

Right, but my supposition is that a bottle of 50th could have survived unlabeled until they bottled OGV, thus using a OGV label with the 98 as a marker that it isn't OGV. I think if someone was labeling OGV with 2/21/04 all day it is an easier mistake to write 2/21/98 (as opposed to 11 for nov) than to mistake 2004 for 1998. Most people don't confuse decades, but if it is February and you are backdating something to a different year I think it a more honest mistake would be a mislabeled month.

 

[GuzzleMcBrew]

Don't tell me my 1997 OGV is a fake. I was going to give it to my son on his 21st if I ever have one!

 

[NAD1983]

Well ****, now I have some serious concerns about the other bottles too. When did 3F stop using the old cork style? Here's a close up cork pic of the "98"

Both of the other bottles were hand labeled and don't correspond to any of the known bottling dates for OGV either. Same Nightlights label.

And here's a side by side cork pic of all three: