Off Flavor in IPAs
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Dr. Francois
Well-Known Member
Re-reading this post 2 months later, I had another idea: brew an extract batch of IPA.
I would also like to see a few of OP's IPA hop schedules.
I still think water is the culprit.
+1 for water.
You mentioned earlier that you used the same water source for 2 batches but it came out radically different. This is not unusual. Municipal water can vary greatly in its chemical makeup.
You need to brew using store bought distilled water. You have adjusted many other variables, but not this one. It's pointless to continue to try to analyze deeper issues until you have eliminated water as a cause.
You mentioned earlier that you used the same water source for 2 batches but it came out radically different. This is not unusual. Municipal water can vary greatly in its chemical makeup.
You need to brew using store bought distilled water. You have adjusted many other variables, but not this one. It's pointless to continue to try to analyze deeper issues until you have eliminated water as a cause.
BreezyBrew
IPA is my spirit animal
And you get to drink delicious beer when it's done!
HIlife
Well-Known Member
I'm working through this exact same problem and I'm thinking it's a pH issue as well. I was using very good lab-grade strips that calibrate well to a pH meter reading (in the lab) with the solutions I tested, so I figured the ~5.4 reading I was getting was right.
Then I came across a lot of work that Kai has done with pH strips that shows that, for whatever reason, they consistently read about .3 units low in wort. That means that your mash pH is more likely in the 5.6-5.7 range when your paper is telling you it's in range.
It's not too high for conversion, but it's too high going into the kettle to make good hoppy beers with. I'm about to re-brew my last pale ale that turned to garbage but shoot for a pH strip reading of closer to 5 and see what happens.
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It makes sense to get a grassy flavor in IPAs since you are using large amounts of hop. A cure for the grassy flavor is using less hops with a lower AA. Also using high amount of american pellet hops can give a grassy flavor. Do not dry hop for long time. One week is a pretty average time frame. Another cause is oxidation. When racking rack quietly the quieter the better. The band aid flavor is a different thing. It's also known as Phenolic flavors. Band aid medicinal are typical cause by wild yeast sanitation problems. But since you said you sanitize like crazzy another cause might be over crushing grain and or sparring with water that is one 170 degrees or hotter. I personally like to use whole hop leaf to dry hop or late hop addition they do absorb more wort and beer at dry hop and might be hard to remove from glass carboy but the flavor is un comparable.
joselima
joselima
Skiffy
Well-Known Member
Any news on this? I'm having the same issue. Shouldn't be a traditional water chemistry problem as I have my water profile, and everything was locked in. I know its not just light versus dark beers, as I just brewed a simple Belgian single which tastes fantastic. I even accidentally topped off that beer with a bit of untreated tap water, which is pretty heavy in chloramines.
The only thing I can add is that my first APA had the taste and was brewed with untreated tap water (Philly). My second APA was brewed with treated tap water (camped tablet, some gypsum in the boil) and had the taste. I brewed a hoppy summer beer (basically an APA, including a dry hop) with bottled spring water and the flavor was absent.
Could it be the hops reacting with some other compound in tap water? Was never good at chemistry, but fluoride or an element that isn't traditional looked at carefully?
I may have to do a double brew day, one with bottled water and one with treated tap water.
The only thing I can add is that my first APA had the taste and was brewed with untreated tap water (Philly). My second APA was brewed with treated tap water (camped tablet, some gypsum in the boil) and had the taste. I brewed a hoppy summer beer (basically an APA, including a dry hop) with bottled spring water and the flavor was absent.
Could it be the hops reacting with some other compound in tap water? Was never good at chemistry, but fluoride or an element that isn't traditional looked at carefully?
I may have to do a double brew day, one with bottled water and one with treated tap water.
Just went on to post about the same issue, then found this thread. I made an APA a couple of months ago with the same issue. Used filtered tap water, which has been fine for 50+ batches. It is the same filtered tap water used by a local brewery, and they tell me they do not make any adjustments, they will just not brew occasionally when they don't like that days water profile, which is rare. It was the first batch crushing my own grain, that could be the issue. I also lowered the amount of specialty malts compared to past batches, and added corn sugar to dry it out and accentuate the hops. I have it on tap right next to a previous APA that tastes great, brewed two months prior.
Both beers fermented with US05 in a 62 degree basement, beer temp never gets above 68, 10 gal. batches, Primary for 3 weeks, then keg.
Here is the list of differences:
Good APA
Mash at 152
SG = 1.050
FG = 1.013
80% 2-row
9% Vienna
4% Carapils
3.3% C20
3.3% Honey Malt
0.75 oz. Columbus FWH
no 60 min. addition
4 oz. @ 20 min Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe/Columbus
4 oz. 20 min hopstand Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe/Columbus
Medicinal (Bad) APA
Mash at 149
SG = 1.050
FG = 1.008
81% 2 row
9.5% Vienna
4.8% Carapils
2.4% Honey Malt
2.4% corn sugar
0.5 oz. Magnum @ 60 min
4 oz. @ 20 min Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe
4 oz. 20 min hopstand Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe
I just got a new grain mill for the second batch used it for the first time, set @0.37. The old crush was at the LHBS, unknown diameter. I did adjust my efficiency upward (guessed) and hit the target OG. My new crush added about 7-8% to the mash efficiency.
Maybe it is just the hops. The bad batch was from a new batch, all were purchased in one pound bags, and not opened until brew day. The good batch was from hops stored in opened bags, vacuum sealed in the freezer for storage.
Maybe the lower mash temp and lowering the specialty grains caused high mash pH (which I don't measure, unfortunately)?
I am at complete loss. This is the first off flavor I have not been able to pinpoint, and it is very frustrating.
Any additional info or observations would be appreciated.
Both beers fermented with US05 in a 62 degree basement, beer temp never gets above 68, 10 gal. batches, Primary for 3 weeks, then keg.
Here is the list of differences:
Good APA
Mash at 152
SG = 1.050
FG = 1.013
80% 2-row
9% Vienna
4% Carapils
3.3% C20
3.3% Honey Malt
0.75 oz. Columbus FWH
no 60 min. addition
4 oz. @ 20 min Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe/Columbus
4 oz. 20 min hopstand Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe/Columbus
Medicinal (Bad) APA
Mash at 149
SG = 1.050
FG = 1.008
81% 2 row
9.5% Vienna
4.8% Carapils
2.4% Honey Malt
2.4% corn sugar
0.5 oz. Magnum @ 60 min
4 oz. @ 20 min Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe
4 oz. 20 min hopstand Amarillo/Citra/Simcoe
I just got a new grain mill for the second batch used it for the first time, set @0.37. The old crush was at the LHBS, unknown diameter. I did adjust my efficiency upward (guessed) and hit the target OG. My new crush added about 7-8% to the mash efficiency.
Maybe it is just the hops. The bad batch was from a new batch, all were purchased in one pound bags, and not opened until brew day. The good batch was from hops stored in opened bags, vacuum sealed in the freezer for storage.
Maybe the lower mash temp and lowering the specialty grains caused high mash pH (which I don't measure, unfortunately)?
I am at complete loss. This is the first off flavor I have not been able to pinpoint, and it is very frustrating.
Any additional info or observations would be appreciated.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
Not to sound like a broken record but - I would also suggest you look at your water. As Yooper pointed out there can be seasonal variations in water treatments (and seems confirmed by your local brewery). Filtering will not remove chloramine and if medicinal is your description I would suspect that first. I assume you did not use campden for this batch? I really think you should also consider following pH, and I don't mean the pH strips (way back when I tried some that were supposed to be higher quality, they read 5.0 to 5.2 no matter what I did with the water or grainbill). If you don't want to get a meter and get into water I would at the least start with RO and do mineral additions listed in the water primer.
I have read up on some other posts, and I believe chloramines is probably the cause. I have never used Campden tablets, other than for cider making, but it sounds like that would be a great first step for troubleshooting this issue. Many of the Chloramine threads describe the chloramine taste as medicinal, plasticy, and band-aid, and my wife says the plasticy and band-aid flavor is what she gets.
It would make sense that chloramine levels cold be higher in municipal water in the spring when there is run-off, when the medicine-like beer was brewed.
It would make sense that chloramine levels cold be higher in municipal water in the spring when there is run-off, when the medicine-like beer was brewed.
airbrett
Well-Known Member
Just a call out from a relative newbie, but isn't it not a great idea to use distilled water to brew counter to some of the suggestions? I read in other threads that it is not great for yeast.
Perhaps using a bottled mountain spring water such as Arrowhead would be a better experiment. Along with making it a simple Smash IPA that is not racked to a secondary and not dry hopped.
Perhaps using a bottled mountain spring water such as Arrowhead would be a better experiment. Along with making it a simple Smash IPA that is not racked to a secondary and not dry hopped.
Well when using RO water you are starting from a clean slate so with that in mind that's when using gypsum, calcium chloride, etc comes into play thus you don't have to worry about anything in your water that's going to effect your brew or growth of your yeast, yeast nutrient in the boil and aeration when racking to the primary definitely helps
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
No you're correct, but we are talking about using RO water then adding back the necessary minerals like calcium. The point is you know what you are starting with, and also in general it's easier to add things than take them out.
edit: just realized HopHead sort of answered this already.
You didn't mention what your off flavor was, that I could see. I immediately wondered about US-05 at 62 degrees -- I've given up on the Chico strains because I often get a gross (to me) sort of orange-y musty aroma and flavor from them.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
He/she named it Medicinal (Bad) APA, that's what I was going on.
The bad flavor is definitely medicinal or plastic-y, phenolic.
I brewed the exact same batch this past weekend, and treated all of the mash and sparge water with the proper amount of campden. It is fermenting away at 65-67 in the basement. I will repost in a few weeks when it is kegged and on tap. I am keeping the medicinal keg on one of my taps for now just for the comparison when the new batch is done.
Also, got a neighbor down the street to taste both APAs (good and bad), he is a long-time homebrewer who is in the process of opening his own brewpup, and with no input from me, he got "platic-y and phenolic" and thought that water was the most likely suspect.
I brewed the exact same batch this past weekend, and treated all of the mash and sparge water with the proper amount of campden. It is fermenting away at 65-67 in the basement. I will repost in a few weeks when it is kegged and on tap. I am keeping the medicinal keg on one of my taps for now just for the comparison when the new batch is done.
Also, got a neighbor down the street to taste both APAs (good and bad), he is a long-time homebrewer who is in the process of opening his own brewpup, and with no input from me, he got "platic-y and phenolic" and thought that water was the most likely suspect.
Chrisbrewbeers
Well-Known Member
I have had this band aid taste one time when I had a kit and decided to try tap water rather than go out of my way to get RO. It really does taste like you are sucking on a band aid. This was my 4th batch and it caused me to get a good supply of campden tablets to keep around. I haven't had those favors since then. I knew better too, just had to see for myself I guess.
TheHopfather
Well-Known Member
Subscribed - IPA woes as well.
Well I have the batch kegged and one tap that I brewed treating all of the water with Campden prior to brewing, and I believe I have found the issue.
The latest batch tastes great, no medicinal or plastic flavor at all, just hop goodness and a slight malt backbone, delicious.
I will be putting the Campden treatments into my regular brew day from now on, thanks for all of the help!
The latest batch tastes great, no medicinal or plastic flavor at all, just hop goodness and a slight malt backbone, delicious.
I will be putting the Campden treatments into my regular brew day from now on, thanks for all of the help!
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
Check the post above yours.
He is not the OP.
Also, I'm tried campden tablets and that hasn't solved my problems.
chickypad
lupulin shift victim
Ah, sorry. What is your issue, also medicinal?
Yup. Same as the others posting here.
Just about the only thing I haven't tried is RO water with brewing minerals added.
Chrisbrewbeers
Well-Known Member
I would try the RO water. I suggested the campden tablets a few posts earlier and they help but since then I have used RO and I think it tastes cleaner. Just try to find a water machine and fill a carboy or two. Should be about 30 cents a gallon.
