Oats vs Wheat vs CaraPils

[ismellweird]

Hi home brew talkers

In my first ever homebrewed stout my recipe called for a certain percentage points of flaked oats and I've learned this is for things like giving head, body, and mouth feel to your recipe, but I'm confused as to why wheat or carapils seem to do these same things, and how someone comes to the conclusion which one to use. So far brewing seems very scientific but here's an area where it seems less clear to me. thanks for your help.

is__mell__weird?

 

[bradleypariah]

Complex sugars, flaked oats and wheat help foam stick around.

Carapils is a dextrin (complex chain) malt, but won't help with head retention if you're an all-grain brewer. The enzymes in your mash will break down carapils to simple sugars, adding to your OG and ABV, which is exactly what you don't want from carapils.

Yeast won't eat much dextrin malt, and residual sugars in your beer aid in head-retention, so that's why people say carpils will result in better head retention down the road.

If you're an extract brewer, you'd be steeping carapils in plain water. You won't have enzymes from other grains converting the carapils to simple chain sugars, so you'll end up with complex sugars in your water, and then you just add extract to that. Done. Head retention.

If you're all-grain, to get better head retention, adjust your base malt mash temperature. Leave out carapils. 152° F is kind of a beginning point. Go a dozen degrees below that, and you will create more fermentable sugars, which will increase your alcohol content, get a drier beer, and harm head retention. Wheat and flaked oats will help fix that, but they will affect flavor. If you want a more simple malt character, you can mash base malt at 160° F or more, which will leave residual complex sugars, but you also risk creating tannins.

Someone smarter than me will hopefully step in here and explain step-mashing, wherein you have several periods at different temperatures to obtain multiple benefits from a simple grain bill.

 

[rhys333]

Flaked oats, rolled oats, carapils, wheat and flaked barley all help with head retention in their own way. I prefer using wheat as (in my experience) it gives a nice white head with tiny bubbles, and flaked barley, as it has a rocky head that sticks to the glass and retains a layer of foam to the very last sip.

 

[ismellweird]

Flaked oats, rolled oats, carapils, wheat and flaked barley all help with head retention in their own way. I prefer using wheat as (in my experience) it gives a nice white head with tiny bubbles, and flaked barley, as it has a rocky head that sticks to the glass and retains a layer of foam to the very last sip.

So just to keep things fairly basic lets say I'm all grain and want to make a dry pale ale with regular carbonation/bubbles and good head retention without affecting flavor, I guess I want to do carapils and flaked barley? Seems like wheat affects flavor and carbonation and carapils alone isn't enough.

is__well__weird?

 

[rhys333]

So just to keep things fairly basic lets say I'm all grain and want to make a dry pale ale with regular carbonation/bubbles and good head retention without affecting flavor, I guess I want to do carapils and flaked barley? Seems like wheat affects flavor and carbonation and carapils alone isn't enough.

is__well__weird?

Since all you really need is about 5% of grist, you can pretty much use any of the above, except maybe oats as they tend to have a slickness to them (imho). I often throw 10-15% wheat in a dry pale ale and you wouldn't know it was in there if it weren't for the head.

If it were me though, yeah, flaked barley (4-5%) or wheat (5-10%) if you have access to either.

 

[rhys333]

Carapils is no slouch though. Here's a picture of what was a very simple IPA... 91% 2-row, 6% Munich and 3% Carapils. The hops probably helped out too though.

 

[bradleypariah]

lets say I'm all grain and want to make a dry pale ale with regular carbonation/bubbles and good head retention without affecting flavor, I guess I want to do carapils and flaked barley?

Carapils is a dextrin (complex chain) malt, but won't help with head retention if you're an all-grain brewer. The enzymes in your mash will break down carapils to simple sugars, adding to your OG and ABV, which is exactly what you don't want from carapils.

If you want carapils to remain complex, thus yeast won't eat it, thus leaving residual sugars to help with head-retention, steep carapils separately from your mash in plain water, then add it to the boil kettle post-mash. When added to your mash, the enzymes in your base malt will break carapils down. It only adds a slight nutty flavor, but it will not produce any better head retention than a base malt if they're mashed together. Clearer?

 

[ismellweird]

carapils is no slouch though. Here's a picture of what was a very simple ipa... 91% 2-row, 6% munich and 3% carapils. The hops probably helped out too though.

wow!!!

 

[bradleypariah]

Carapils is no slouch though. Here's a picture of what was a very simple IPA... 91% 2-row, 6% Munich and 3% Carapils. The hops probably helped out too though.

Most likely the hops, and just normal residual sugars, yeah. I don't believe carapils or Munich are helping you. In fact, there are studies that state carapils actually hurts head-retention. You should try making that exact same beer with just 2-row and Munich. See if it's foamier.

OP, your malt will never completely turn to 100% sugar. There's always something left over to help with foam, no matter what malt you use. Certain adjuncts or overly-high alcoholic beers have a tough time keeping foam, and that's why people look for other foam-helping additives.

If you add a little bit of Maltodextrin to your boil, that can also help with head-retention. If you're adding it to your mash, go for wheat or flaked oats.

If you prefer to learn this stuff from Brulosophy, here's an article that states only two out of eleven testers in a blind test could even tell a mouth-feel difference between a beer made with carapils and one without. You'll note that the carapils beer also has worse head retention:
http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/28/de...ous-beer-characteristics-exbeeriment-results/

Here's a study from UC Davis that tends to prove that both crystal malt and carapils hurt foam retention when added to your base malt mash:
http://youngscientistssymposium.org/YSS2016/pdf/Kultgen.pdf

 

[ismellweird]

Most likely the hops, and just normal residual sugars, yeah. I don't believe carapils or Munich are helping you. In fact, there are studies that state carapils actually hurts head-retention. You should try making that exact same beer with just 2-row and Munich. See if it's foamier.

OP, your malt will never completely turn to 100% sugar. There's always something left over to help with foam, no matter what malt you use. Certain adjuncts or overly-high alcoholic beers have a tough time keeping foam, and that's why people look for other foam-helping additives.

If you add a little bit of Maltodextrin to your boil, that can also help with head-retention. If you're adding it to you mash, go for wheat or flaked oats.

If you prefer to learn this stuff from Brulosophy, here's an article that states only two out of eleven testers in a blind test could even tell a mouth-feel difference between a beer made with carapils and one without. You'll note that the carapils beer also has worse head retention:
http://brulosophy.com/2016/11/28/de...ous-beer-characteristics-exbeeriment-results/

Here's a study from UC Davis that tends to prove that both crystal malt and carapils hurt foam retention when added to your base malt mash:
http://youngscientistssymposium.org/YSS2016/pdf/Kultgen.pdf

Ok, so what this proves is that it's all a waste of money, just make the same recipe without all of these ingredients. So a pale ale with like 95% 2-row then 5% munich and a bunch of hops, yeast, that's about it. BAM, I've made beer like the stuff on the shelves. I'm getting the hang of this.

 

[bradleypariah]

Ok, so what this proves is that it's all a waste of money, just make the same recipe without all of these ingredients. So a pale ale with like 95% 2-row then 5% munich and a bunch of hops, yeast, that's about it. BAM, I've made beer like the stuff on the shelves. I'm getting the hang of this.

I wouldn't go as far as to say any of it's a waste of money. All ingredients impart flavor, right? Carapils included. That's worth something. However, if your aim is head retention, there are things that work for extract brewers, and there are things that work for all-grain brewers. Even knowing that crystal malt hurts head retention will never stop me from using it. I love it. I just add flaked oats to my mash to help offset the problem it causes.

 

[Lefou]

Want a bit more foam and have it stick around?
Use 5-10% wheat malt. Grind it to near powder and add to your mash. The Carapils doesn't contribute much color, so add a portion late when doing a step mash, preferably just before mash out. That will add body, dextrins, and flavor without much conversion. Get a good "hot break" during the boil, too, it helps.
When hopping, use a bittering hop with a moderate to high alpha acid. I usually do beers with a minimum of 20IBU and boil for an hour. Carb your beers moderately well. Done correctly, even your moderately dry beers like Pilsners will foam well without wheat additions if mashed and hopped properly. Barley boasts a protein content, too, so mashing it properly matters.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Perhaps for all-grain brewing it's safer to just add some maltodextrin at the end of the boil, vs. presuming that CaraPils will add a beneficial level of dextrine.