More body, mute hop flavor.

[hotbeer]

I just sampled my first Porter I've ever brewed after doing Ale's and IPA's for the last two years. It's a take on a Mackeson Stout recipe someone referred to in another thread. I substituted quite a bit with stuff I had or could easily obtain. And I thought I try some new hops.

The ingredients:

51% Rahr - 2 row
13% Briess - Bonlander Munich Malt
9% invert sugar #3 (though what I made was probably way darker)
8% lactose
8% Briess - Blackprinz
8% Briess - Chocolate
4% Cane sugar. ( I just used light brown sugar)

I was suppose to add .4 oz of flaked oats, but I forgot!

Expected OG is 1.050
Expected FG is 1.014

My water chemistry from the analysis on the waters website

Ca+2 35ppm
Mg+2 1.2 ppm
SO4-2 5.1 ppm
Na+ 0 ppm
Cl- 1.2 ppm
HCO2 100 ppm

I made no chemistry additions to the water.


Hops used is just Harlequin. 10.5% alpha

3 grams at 60 minutes
4 grams at 30 minutes
4 grams at 15 minutes

edit.. Little less than 4 gallons of water used in total and 2.5 gallons went into the FV.

Anyhow...

I think it's decent. But maybe a little watery feeling in the mouth. Maybe a tad sweet, but maybe more body will make that not seem a thing. And I typically drink beers that aren't sweet at all. So that factors in too.

I'm going to do a few more of essentially the same brew with mostly the same malts. Particularly the Rahr 2-row which I have 5 lbs still left to use up.

Question #1 Watery mouthfeel. I don't want to add to the OG and make it higher ABV. Options might be maltodextrin which I have on hand or should I increase the chlorides, perhaps with NaCl or CaCl2? Briess Carapils malt perhaps?

Question #2 Maybe too hoppy for a porter. Just eliminate the 15 minute hop addition? Perhaps more bittering will offset the sweetness better by pushing those hop amount back to 30 or 60. Yea? Nay?

 

[day_trippr]

Was this a two liter batch? One liter? Four liters?
Without a clue of the batch size it's hard to relate to the tiny amounts of hops in that recipe vs the outcome.

Cheers!

 

[DBhomebrew]

That water's got practically nothing in it. Try dosing a pint using @BrewnWKopperKat's method in the advanced extract thread. Dose it so the final profile is somewhere around 125 each Cl &SO4, 40 Na.

See where that takes you.

This is water salts for flavor's sake. Mash pH is another story.

 

[hotbeer]

Was this a two liter batch? One liter? Four liters?

Ooops. Sorry!

2.5 gallons into the FV.

 

[hotbeer]

Mash pH is another story.

My previous mashes for the other beers were always spot on at 5.4 pH as best I could tell with the paper test strips. However maybe I should invest in a pH meter for beers using these darker malts.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Using that low mineral water, you can rely on a quality water chemistry calculator's estimate. Skip the pH strips, trust the calculator.

Yes, if the water was making decent 'ales' (I assume that means pale?*), it very likely won't make good porter. Without amendment, of course.

*IPAs and porters are ales.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Water adjustments for RO/distilled water: Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery. Please verify that the article applies to the water profile in #1. The Mg/Na/Cl/S04 values are essentially zero; but not sure about the HCO2 value.

eta: beyond that, it looks like @DBhomebrew has covered the key points. There might be some additional ideas if a full recipe (grain waits, hop IBUs, yeast, etc, etc, etc) were provided.

eta:

 

[hotbeer]

My batch of 2.5 gallons into the FV required about 3.8 gallons of water to get there.

So essentially it looks like the consensus for the water and to give it a fuller body taste is to add a tad more than 3/4 tsp of calcium chloride to maybe as much as 1.5 tsp.

Possibly some Gypsum too.

Is the calcium the magic or is it the chloride? If chloride, then might I add some fullness with NaCl, canning salt ?

 

[Erik the Anglophile]

The amount of table salt needed to get the finished beer up to a decent level of Cl would likely make the beer taste, well, salty.
Don't be a Scrooge, go get or use the internet to order home, some calcium chloride (liquid is prefferable if you can get it), calcium sulfate and lactic acid. And a decent calculator, I use Mash Made Easy made by a member on here. The calculator is free, the rest are relatively cheap investments...

 

[hotbeer]

The amount of table salt needed to get the finished beer up to a decent level of Cl would likely make the beer taste, well, salty.

What level of chloride are you thinking I need to increase to?

6 grams (1.76 tsp) gets me about the same chloride level as 5.5 grams (0.92 tsp) of salt. If I'm working the calculator on brewersfriend properly, then the sodium and other levels are still within OK levels. And I thought salt was pretty much undetectable up to a point.

It's not really about being a scrooge. It's more about I have canning salt already. So I don't have to leave my home to get anything before I brew this weekend.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Calcium is required for acidification of the mash, yeast health/flocculation, and some other stuff. You need it in amounts chemistry and biology say is necessary.

Chloride and sulphate are largely flavor enhancement and mouth feel. You need both at levels to taste.

NaCl, don't need to bother with sodium. Don't need it. But a moderate amount is really tasty.

My stouts usually need a bit of baking soda for alkalinity to correct for the acidic roasted malts.

100-150 Ca
100-150 Cl
100-150 SO4
30-50 Na
10 Mg

That's an American approach. Brits easily double it.

 

[DBhomebrew]

AJ's water primer speaks to your broad stroke brewing.

"In this note we are going to take a very simple approach to brewing water preparation. In tailoring water we seek 2 goals. The first, arguably more important than the second, is to be sure that the water properties are consistent with mash pH in a suitable range (5.1 - 5.5). The second is that, on the one hand, the mineral content not add or cause flavors which the drinker may not like and on the other that minerals which have a positive effect on the beer, be available in adequate quantity."

A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer

Another forum member just pointed out that perhaps we should have a simple preface at the top of this post explaining that the information provided by AJ is not simply a dissenting opinion to what has been expressed in previous books, on forums, and in podcasts, but rather an updated and newer...

www.homebrewtalk.com

 

[Kickass]

Expected FG is 1.014

Typically sweet and full body (higher FG) are synonymous versus dry and thin (lower FG). What was your measured FG? And what temp did you mash at?

Others are addressing water mineralization so I wanted to point out that a little residual sugar can add to the impression of body.

 

[hotbeer]

Typically sweet and full body (higher FG) are synonymous versus dry and thin (lower FG). What was your measured FG? And what temp did you mash at?

I mashed at 152 - 154°F as I usually do for my IPA's and other light/pale ales. BIAB 1.25 qts per lb of malt. Rinsed/sparged with remaining cool water to get to the boil.

Actual FG measured with a hydrometer was a little higher than expected, 1.018 maybe 1.017

Others are addressing water mineralization so I wanted to point out that a little residual sugar can add to the impression of body

That is why I mentioned maltodextrin. I know it's not supposed to ferment in beer. And it's not really sweet like other sugars are. I have some already that I use in my drink mix while cycling. I've never used it in beer. I've read it's used to improve the body of a beer.

 

[hotbeer]

100-150 Cl

Those are the ppm values?

I can get there with salt and keep it less than 200 ppm on the Na if I worked it out correctly. However I might can get calcium chloride at the grocery store if they still have canning supplies out. I think it goes under the name of Pickle Crisp and various other brand names.

Realize I'm only playing around and this is only a 2.5 gallon batch and I'm going to do several of the same basic recipe over the next month or two. I am happy to do the "wrong" thing and see what the results are just so I'll know just how much difference it really does make when I do the "right" thing.

 

[DBhomebrew]

Ok... where does that leave your  calcium? Mash pH?

Hitting chloride levels and merely sort of really super high sodium aren't your goals here. Mash pH and minimum Ca levels are.

 

[hotbeer]

Mash pH and minimum Ca levels are.

Well my only concern is to give the beer more body for my next brew this weekend. And I thought that one way to do that was to increase the chloride. Which I can do with either salt that I already have or get some calcium chloride, which I don't have at the moment.

No LHBS's here. So if they don't have food grade calcium chloride at the grocery store in the canning supplies I am S.O.L for the weekend.

Chlorides are what the most things I've read say increases mouthfeel. And sodium, up to a point helps make the malt flavors stand out.

Sulfates are supposed to make the hops shine which I'd rather be more muted in this... I think.

And Calcium seems to be just that everyone wants their water to match what brewing water from ye olde brewing days of English beers. Though no longer does. Though I think it does act to buffer ph. Which is a good thing if pH going high during mash is an issue.

As I mentioned my other brews of light/pale ales and IPA's always showed a proper acidity through out the mash and sparge. So I'm not expecting the stout to be any higher in pH. Possibly it went the other way. However with as dark a wort as this was during the mash, my paper test strips were useless. I've wondered if a low pH might be why it didn't ferment out to as low a FG as predicted.

But in the sample I had at week 1 of carbonation, I couldn't tell anything toward whether it was too acid.

 

[Kickass]

Actual FG measured with a hydrometer was a little higher than expected, 1.018 maybe 1.017

Ok, sounds like you have that angle covered.

 

[hotbeer]

Ok, sounds like you have that angle covered.

I was hoping your say more about adding sugar for the body. I don't care for sugary tasting beer. But how much is too much and is there a certain SG that can be said to be too much?

Or how would you gauge when to add more unfermentable sugars over just doing water corrections for body?

Have you any ideas about using maltodextrin in beer?

 

[Kickass]

I was hoping your say more about adding sugar for the body. I don't care for sugary tasting beer.

From my understanding, maltose doesn’t have a strong “sweetness” perception. Even less is lactose, which you used. How much, most likely comes down to preference.

Although not very comprehensive, he’s a short read that compiles a few different references of “sweetness”.

Relative Sweetness Of Brewing Sugars (How Sweet is Sweet?)

I became interested in this topic when I started planning to brew a Sweet (AKA Milk) Stout. Beer brewers care most about the sugars extracte...

finnhillbrewing.blogspot.com

 

[hotbeer]

From my understanding, maltose doesn’t have a strong “sweetness” perception. Even less is lactose, which you used. How much, most likely comes down to preference.

Thanks. I might consider taking some of the cane sugar or invert sugar out of the recipe and adding some maltodextrin or even more lactose.

The link was useful. However it didn't have maltodextrin listed for relative sweetness. And I've since found a place that list the relative sweetness for it, I now have learned that there is apparently different versions of maltodextrin that all have a different DE that apparently equates partially to their sweetness.

https://owlsoft.com/pdf_docs/WhitePaper/Rel_Sweet.pdf

My maltodextrin doesn't list a DE on it.

edit...

Of course now I realize that if I change the cane sugar or invert sugar I'm messing with the stuff that's going to be mostly fermented any how and replacing it with unfermentable stuff and also change the ABV. So more thinking to do!