I recently purchased an SS chronical fermenter. I performed the recommended initial cleaning and passivation with 1oz Starsan to 1 gal 70 degree water as recommended. Drained and let air dry. 7 days later I added the first wort to the fermenter. After 10 days in primary the beer finished as desired on FG. After tasting the sample I noticed that my tongue tingled and then had a numb feeling. It also had a very faint metallic taste. I liken the tongue feeling to inadvertently touching your mouth after working with a car battery. Anyone had this experience
Numb tongue after passivation
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grundlepunch
Active Member
I thought star san is 1oz to 5 gal?
number40fan
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Yep. 1 oz. in 5 gal.
I bought one of their Brew Buckets. It took a fair amount of effort to get it clean before using. Polishing compound kept coming off every time I'd run a cloth over it. Depending on how thoroughly you cleaned it, it may still have polishing compound on it.
After that you didn't rinse?
From Five-stars website:
Directions: A dilution of 1 ounce to 5 gallons of water, STAR SAN will provide 300 ppm of
dodecylbenzenesulfonic acid. After 1 to 2 minutes contact time, drain sanitizing solution equipment
thoroughly. Do not rinse. If using Star San in CIP, proper water balance must be maintained or your
pump may cavitate. If used at a rate of more than 300 ppm, a potable rinse is required.
grundlepunch
Active Member
I wouldnt drink that beer. And Who is they? Star-San per their tech sheet says 1oz to 5gal in order for it to be no rinse. You made that star San mix strong! And why would you passionate a new fermenter? I thought that was for rusting stainless
andrewmaixner
Well-Known Member
Taste some regular-strength starsan, and see if that is what you are tasting. I'm guessing not. Phosphoric acid is an ingredient in Coke, for example, and tasting it does not make my tongue tingle or numb.
I presume the feeling you are describing is like licking 9v battery terminals?
I presume the feeling you are describing is like licking 9v battery terminals?
flars
Well-Known Member
I copied this from Brewing Technologies site.
"FIRST TIME USE
Cleaning
Prior to your first time use, you should wash the equipment with Tri-Sodium Phosphate (TSP) in hot water following the
manufacturers recommendations. After the TSP wash, rinse well and use a soft cloth to dry all surfaces.
Passivation
Its a good idea to passivate your stainless steel equipment with an acid based solution. Filling the vessel with StarSan at
1oz per gallon of water or other acid passivation solution at the recommended strength and at a temperature of 70-80F for
20 minutes, followed by an air dry is all that is needed."
Is it an error that rinsing after passivation was omitted or would TSP have been a better cleaner than detergent?
"FIRST TIME USE
Cleaning
Prior to your first time use, you should wash the equipment with Tri-Sodium Phosphate (TSP) in hot water following the
manufacturers recommendations. After the TSP wash, rinse well and use a soft cloth to dry all surfaces.
Passivation
Its a good idea to passivate your stainless steel equipment with an acid based solution. Filling the vessel with StarSan at
1oz per gallon of water or other acid passivation solution at the recommended strength and at a temperature of 70-80F for
20 minutes, followed by an air dry is all that is needed."
Is it an error that rinsing after passivation was omitted or would TSP have been a better cleaner than detergent?
dmcman73
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TSP is a heavy duty cleaner that cuts through grease and such, they recommend that to remove all the manufacturing oils and buffing compound from the Stainless steel.
When I did a passivation on my conical, I just went with StarSan's dilution recommendation and let that sit in the conical for 30 minutes then rinsed it. When I was ready to use the conical, I then did a normal sanitizing with StarSan for a minute or two then drained it.
If you used it at a higher strength, you do need to rinse as it's removing some metal compounds, without a rinse you'll have a thin layer of those metal compounds just clinging to the surface if you just drain and let air dry. You only let StarSan air dry when you are sanitizing it because your using a diluted strength and it's not on the metal too long.
Here is a description on passivating Stainless, I changed the text color in red and made it bold where it states that it is then rinsed with water then dried.
Stainless steel
Stainless steels are corrosion-resistant by nature, which might suggest that passivating them would be unnecessary. However, stainless steels are not completely impervious to rusting. One common mode of corrosion in corrosion-resistant steels is when small spots on the surface begin to rust because grain boundaries or embedded bits of foreign matter (such as grinding swarf) allow water molecules to oxidize some of the iron in those spots despite the alloying chromium. This is called rouging. Some grades of stainless steel are especially resistant to rouging; parts made from them may therefore forgo any passivation step, depending on engineering decisions.[7]
Passivation processes are generally controlled by industry standards, the most prevalent among them today being ASTM A 967 and AMS 2700. These industry standards will generally list several typical "types" of passivation processes that can be used, with the specific method to be decided between the customer and vendor. The "Method" refers to either the use of a nitric acid-based passivating bath (Method 1), or a citric acid based bath (Method 2.) The various 'Types' found listed under each method refer to differences in acid bath temperature and concentration. Sodium dichromate is often required as an additive to promote oxidation in certain 'types' of nitric-based acid baths.
Common among all of the different specifications and types are the following steps: Prior to passivation, the parts must be cleaned of any contaminants and generally must undergo a validating test to prove that the surface is 'clean.' The part is then placed in an acidic passivating bath that meets the temperature and chemistry requirements of the Method and Type specified between customer and vendor. (Temperatures can range from ambient to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, while minimum passivation times are generally around 20 to 30 minutes). The parts are then neutralized using a bath of aqueous sodium hydroxide and then rinsed with clean water, dried, and the passive surface is validated using exposure to humidity, elevated temperature, a rusting agent (salt spray), or some combination of the three. However, proprietary passivation processes exist for martensitic stainless steel, which is difficult to passivate, as microscopic discontinuities can form in the surface of a machined part during passivation in a typical nitric acid bath.[8] The passivation process removes exogenous iron, creates/restores a passive oxide layer that prevents further oxidation (rust), and cleans the parts of dirt, scale, or other welding-generated compounds (e.g. oxides).[9][10]
It is not uncommon for some aerospace manufacturers to have additional guidelines and regulations when passivating their product that exceed the requirements in a national standard. Often, these requirements will be flowed down using NADCAP or some other accreditation system. Various testing methods are available to determine the passivation (or passive state) of stainless steel. The most common methods for validating the passivity of a part is some combination of high humidity and heat for a period of time, intended to induce rusting. Electro-chemical testers can also be utilized to commercially verify passivation.
As someone said, I wouldn't drink the beer.
When I did a passivation on my conical, I just went with StarSan's dilution recommendation and let that sit in the conical for 30 minutes then rinsed it. When I was ready to use the conical, I then did a normal sanitizing with StarSan for a minute or two then drained it.
If you used it at a higher strength, you do need to rinse as it's removing some metal compounds, without a rinse you'll have a thin layer of those metal compounds just clinging to the surface if you just drain and let air dry. You only let StarSan air dry when you are sanitizing it because your using a diluted strength and it's not on the metal too long.
Here is a description on passivating Stainless, I changed the text color in red and made it bold where it states that it is then rinsed with water then dried.
Stainless steel
Stainless steels are corrosion-resistant by nature, which might suggest that passivating them would be unnecessary. However, stainless steels are not completely impervious to rusting. One common mode of corrosion in corrosion-resistant steels is when small spots on the surface begin to rust because grain boundaries or embedded bits of foreign matter (such as grinding swarf) allow water molecules to oxidize some of the iron in those spots despite the alloying chromium. This is called rouging. Some grades of stainless steel are especially resistant to rouging; parts made from them may therefore forgo any passivation step, depending on engineering decisions.[7]
Passivation processes are generally controlled by industry standards, the most prevalent among them today being ASTM A 967 and AMS 2700. These industry standards will generally list several typical "types" of passivation processes that can be used, with the specific method to be decided between the customer and vendor. The "Method" refers to either the use of a nitric acid-based passivating bath (Method 1), or a citric acid based bath (Method 2.) The various 'Types' found listed under each method refer to differences in acid bath temperature and concentration. Sodium dichromate is often required as an additive to promote oxidation in certain 'types' of nitric-based acid baths.
Common among all of the different specifications and types are the following steps: Prior to passivation, the parts must be cleaned of any contaminants and generally must undergo a validating test to prove that the surface is 'clean.' The part is then placed in an acidic passivating bath that meets the temperature and chemistry requirements of the Method and Type specified between customer and vendor. (Temperatures can range from ambient to 140 degrees Fahrenheit, while minimum passivation times are generally around 20 to 30 minutes). The parts are then neutralized using a bath of aqueous sodium hydroxide and then rinsed with clean water, dried, and the passive surface is validated using exposure to humidity, elevated temperature, a rusting agent (salt spray), or some combination of the three. However, proprietary passivation processes exist for martensitic stainless steel, which is difficult to passivate, as microscopic discontinuities can form in the surface of a machined part during passivation in a typical nitric acid bath.[8] The passivation process removes exogenous iron, creates/restores a passive oxide layer that prevents further oxidation (rust), and cleans the parts of dirt, scale, or other welding-generated compounds (e.g. oxides).[9][10]
It is not uncommon for some aerospace manufacturers to have additional guidelines and regulations when passivating their product that exceed the requirements in a national standard. Often, these requirements will be flowed down using NADCAP or some other accreditation system. Various testing methods are available to determine the passivation (or passive state) of stainless steel. The most common methods for validating the passivity of a part is some combination of high humidity and heat for a period of time, intended to induce rusting. Electro-chemical testers can also be utilized to commercially verify passivation.
As someone said, I wouldn't drink the beer.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
Um... No. Re-read the thread. SSBrewtech, and no one on this thread, recommend that. You have a serious misunderstanding of what it means to dilute 1oz into 1gal.
heckels
Well-Known Member
Rather than the Star San route you can passivate using bar keeper's friend with a scrubbie followed by a thorough rinse.
What do you think fill the vessel with a rate of one oz per gallon means?
Get some of this instead http://www.store.homebrew4less.com/...horic-Blend--1-Gallon/productinfo/BC6712-A-1/
"Filling the vessel with StarSan at 1oz per gallon of water"
That is indeed what it says, which does equal 17 oz of Star San. I agree with danny, that's a lot of star san! but I guess it is a one time treatment. Once the oxide layer on the stainless exists, nothing will take it off short of buffing or wire brushing.
As for the numb tongue, it may be an allergic reaction to something too. Any swelling or redness?
This may sound weird but try rubbing some beer on the inside of your forearm and see if you get a rash.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
It means to dilute 1 oz star San into 1 gal of water. Diluting. It doesn't mean "take 17oz of star San and..." If it were me, I wouldn't make up 17 gallons of solution. I'd spray down the conical with a small spray bottle. And spray every few minutes to keep it wet. (Actually if it were me I'd passivate using bar keepers friend as previously mentioned or do a simple Google search to find some other way)
Either way: rinse. Even if the SSBrewtech instructions leave that step out. Rinse. Common sense really ought to dictate that.
You need to understand you are working with chemicals, and if you're not a chemist you still need to have respect for the chemicals you're using and have some common sense. Before ever using Star San you should have a basic idea of what it is and that it's an acid you don't want to be in contact with at high concentrations. Well diluted, no problem. But at a high concentration: don't touch directly, don't splash in your eyes, don't ingest.
Dump that beer.
No, it means fill the vessel (whatever size it may be, 5 gallons 10 gallons, 100 gallons, with a solution of star san that is diluted at a rate of 1 oz per gallon.
100% agree with this though. I do work with chemicals and its important to be safe and not drink it
Ss Brewing recommends against this as BKF will fade the electrically etched volume markings. I've also read a review of the Brew Bucket from some ticked off user that used BKF and was complaining that the volume markings "washed off". He apparently was under the impression that they were painted on, when they're not, and was unaware that using BKF will fade the etched volume markings.
As for after passivation - rinse the dang thing well!!! Don't know why it says air dry cause at that concentration it's not good to leave anything behind.
Rev.
I have to say reading through this thread puts a bit of a bad taste in my mouth about SS Brewtech gear. I mean they charge a premium for their products, which the craftsmanship would seem to demand, but why don't they wash off the polishing compound/manufacturing oils and passivate their products before shipping them out to consumers? Do those extra steps really add that much to the manufacturing cost/timeline? Is there a reason you wouldn't want to do that prior to shipping?
geoffey
Well-Known Member
As I understand it those compounds may take some work to get off, and may be better left on until the unit is put into use. Stout Tanks does the same thing, but they suggest BKF to passivate. (Good to know now that this would mess with the etching on SSBrewtech stuff).
I recommend passivating with citric acid. 5% citric acid by weight in 160F water for 30 minutes. You can get 10lbs of citric for like $28, so its definitely cheaper than the star San for this use.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I would guess its because they dont make their products... They order their conicals from another company in china... The same company bru gear uses... We could only guess how much the the company actually charges and how much of a markup their really is here... Its very possible these things are only about $200 a piece when ordered in bulk and the rest is markups to cover advertising, givaways, operating costs and ...well profit. You cant blame the manufacturer for trying to cut some costs to make a profit right?
Bottom line is the products manufacturing costs are only a small percentage of the pie here. You have to pay the distributors (SS brewing) costs too.
SSbrewing really does have great (online only) customer service ... Imagine what they would charge if they added such crazy things as a telephone number... (Sorry that always bugged me that they dont have one, some people like to deal with other people and not machines for everything..)
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
My stout conical came clean and polished to a mirror finish... My bayou classic kettles on the other hand were loaded with polishing compound and much less "polished".
From what I read polishing them would cost too much if done in the states and is one of the advantages the chinese have over making them here... interesting enough SS chose not to have their conicals polished? To save more costs? I have both polished and not polished conicals and the polished ones are easier to clean inside and out. especially the krausen ring.
These things sit in containers on ships for weeks at a time coming over from china... sometimes they treat them with oil compounds to prevent rust... I know they are 304 stainless and shouldnt need it but...
geoffey
Well-Known Member
Mine came what looked like clean and polished as well, but instructions still said to passivate with BKF (I supposed because it wasn't 100% clean, and as said above are manufactured overseas).
Passivation isn't done for cleaning purposes. Actually, most passivation instructions will tell you to clean the product or part first because anything coating the steel can prevent or interfere with passivation. Passivation is done to remove free iron from the surface of the metal and allow oxygen to create a chromium oxide layer which protects the iron within stainless steel from rusting. Or at least that's the info I garnered when initially reading about passivation.
Rev.
geoffey
Well-Known Member
Yep, now that I think about it I remember the instructions saying to first thoroughly clean with a mild dishwasher soap first. Thanks for that clarification.
I did some more reading guys. Apparently I found in Five Star Chemicals Acid Cleaner #5 the information that was missing. Apparently after passivation we do indeed need to let the fermenter (or whatever stainless item) air dry first! This is critical to successful passivation. After it's air dried then a rinse is also required with potable water. The air dry is what allows the chromium oxide layer to form. I didn't allow an air dry first with my Ss BrewMaster Bucket. I have two more new one's now still in box. Guess when I passivate them I'll just use the same acid mix and move it from one fermenter to the other and repassivate my first Brew Bucket, which I've already used once. Here's the information direct from Five Stars Acid #5 (not StarSan) sheet:
Initial Acid Passivation:
After cleaning vessel with alkali cleaner use 5 ounces of ACID CLEANER #5 per gallon of water. Circulate for 20 minutes at 120°F. Drain vessel and ALLOW TO AIR DRY. The vessel must air dry to achieve successful passivation. (Before using vessel, it is required to rinse with potable water and sanitize according to public health standards.)
Rev.
Passivation is about forming rust. Thats why were using lots of acid anyway. The exposure to oxygen in acid rich environment causes oxide to form on the kettle.
Commercial passivation by another poster includes heat too to encourage rust.
You should probably boil water through this system at the end to clean it anyways to get rid of leftovers from the process.
