NPT vs Triclamps, Anyone ever go all triclamp and regret it?

[shoengine]

I guess there is a bling factor, but for me it was driven by use case. I wanted to do pressure transfers and have a domed lid. I love being able to disconnect my blowoff and put the transfer hardware on in a matter of seconds.

Then I merely replaced the threaded fitting in my kettle to complete the conversion.

 

[iandanielursino]

In the video I brought up using adapters mostly to emphasize the loss of "sanitary" when you introduce threads. Going 100% TC everything erases that con, but not any of the others in the list.

If ease of cleaning is the most important thing to you, I suppose you can overlook the long list of cons. The point that I want to emphasize is that NPT is not that much harder to clean. Recirc hot PBW through with the valves in the half open position (this is how you get solution behind the seats. If you leave the valve all the way open, it never gets behind there). Run 3/4" OD round nylon brushes into the bores.

Even if it's not easy, is it important? Certainly NPT parts should be broken down fully maybe every 6 months but any minor build up in between those cleanings is going to get zapped with heat.

The cringe with the 10 gallon plus kettle is just an extension of my pros and cons list. The kettle is $260. To equip it for drain/whirlpool you add $120 worth of valves, $64 in diptubes, and $28 in clamps and gaskets. To attach hoses, you'll either need the TC x QD adapters like Spike uses on their systems and that's $38 for adapters, clamps and gaskets. Now your kettle is $510. Of course not every decision has to be based on cost and it's just one of the cons. As a Spike dealer I get all this stuff at cost and I can write it off as a business expense since I brew on it as a product demo. Certainly cost is not an issue for me but I still have the NPT version on my rig (15 gallon kettle).

Bulk. The kettle with the accessories is nearly twice the weight. The kettle diameter is under 14". The valve assemblies stick out from the kettle by more than 8" up to the male QD port. When the kettle is empty, you almost have to hold the kettle from moving when you operate the valve.

It's just like putting a 4" exhaust on a 1.4 liter engine.

I did not think to add "bling factor" to the pros list but I concede on that point.

Can you clarify something for me? You mention that the NPT will only get dirty if you actually close the valve, but doesn't that imply that it's possible for NPT threads not to get dirty while something is flowing through them?

Why can't an NPT to TC adapter be created which behaves the same as an open valve and thus does not need to be cleaned which would contradict what you say here?

If you use adapters to go between threads and TC, you've just erased this "pro" in full.

Honest question not trying to pick a fight lol.

 

[Bobby_M]

Can you clarify something for me? You mention that the NPT will only get dirty if you actually close the valve,

I didn't say anything close to that.

but doesn't that imply that it's possible for NPT threads not to get dirty while something is flowing through them?

I don't think so. Everything that wort touches gets dirty with organic soil and beer stone and it builds up every time you brew.

Why can't an NPT to TC adapter be created which behaves the same as an open valve and thus does not need to be cleaned which would contradict what you say here?

I'll try some different ways to explain it.

Most people would argue that the best justification for using TC ports and accessories on brewing equipment is the fact that the liquid flowing through them is only touching very smooth surfaces with very few nook and crannies for soil to build in. Additionally, because all the TC connections are held together with a single wing nut actuated clamp, that taking everything apart for an even more thorough cleaning is possible and practical.

I grant that as all true. Where that argument crumbles is when some of the TC connections are not native, such as when the ports in the kettle are threaded or when the valves are threaded, etc. In that case, threaded to TC adapters are somewhat the worst of both worlds. The NPT side of the connection is practically as hard to clean as a system with ALL NPT connections and the TC side has all the cons I mentioned (bulk, cost, cumbersome).


1. The inherent nature of exposed threads to collect soil over time and the fact that most people would be reluctant to break all the threaded connections down on a regular basis. Threaded connections are perfectly fine on the hot side, in my opinion, for many batches without a full break down IF a rigid clean in place process is followed after every brew day. Hot PBW circulated through all wort paths for 30 minutes with a thorough rinse and as much physical scrubbing as a couple brushes can reach.

2. Ball valves present a special case related to cleaning in place. That is the fact that ball valves have a pocket behind the ball, in between the seats, that is completely isolated from the flow path when in the full open position. While brewing, the operation of the valve open/closed/open will let wort into that pocket. When you're doing a circulatory cleaning through that valve, you have to leave the valve half way open to flush that area out. Not doing this usually results in people eventually taking the valves apart and being horrified at what they find in there. That usually causes that person to vow never to use ball valves again and that TC/butterfly valves are the only way to go. They would be misinformed in my opinion.

 

[Knightshade]

It's just like putting a 4" exhaust on a 1.4 liter engine.

I want to first state, that this is a fairly informative thread and I gleaned some good info, opinions, etc.

However, I also had a good laugh reading this comment. Not as common as they once were in the 90s, but still comical when seen.

 

[iandanielursino]

I didn't say anything close to that.

I don't think so. Everything that wort touches gets dirty with organic soil and beer stone and it builds up every time you brew.


I'll try some different ways to explain it.

Most people would argue that the best justification for using TC ports and accessories on brewing equipment is the fact that the liquid flowing through them is only touching very smooth surfaces with very few nook and crannies for soil to build in. Additionally, because all the TC connections are held together with a single wing nut actuated clamp, that taking everything apart for an even more thorough cleaning is possible and practical.

I grant that as all true. Where that argument crumbles is when some of the TC connections are not native, such as when the ports in the kettle are threaded or when the valves are threaded, etc. In that case, threaded to TC adapters are somewhat the worst of both worlds. The NPT side of the connection is practically as hard to clean as a system with ALL NPT connections and the TC side has all the cons I mentioned (bulk, cost, cumbersome).


1. The inherent nature of exposed threads to collect soil over time and the fact that most people would be reluctant to break all the threaded connections down on a regular basis. Threaded connections are perfectly fine on the hot side, in my opinion, for many batches without a full break down IF a rigid clean in place process is followed after every brew day. Hot PBW circulated through all wort paths for 30 minutes with a thorough rinse and as much physical scrubbing as a couple brushes can reach.

2. Ball valves present a special case related to cleaning in place. That is the fact that ball valves have a pocket behind the ball, in between the seats, that is completely isolated from the flow path when in the full open position. While brewing, the operation of the valve open/closed/open will let wort into that pocket. When you're doing a circulatory cleaning through that valve, you have to leave the valve half way open to flush that area out. Not doing this usually results in people eventually taking the valves apart and being horrified at what they find in there. That usually causes that person to vow never to use ball valves again and that TC/butterfly valves are the only way to go. They would be misinformed in my opinion.

Oh I get it you were just saying people associate NPT with ball valves, I got it.

So, do you have to clean NPT stuff even if it's not used because the air lets stuff in?
If not, do you have to clean your NPT to TC adapter because the threads make contact with wort? Isn't there some way (in theory if not in practice) to prevent the wort from overflowing into the threads since the threads are on the outside not the inside? (like maybe a gasket?)

Anyways while I agree with you, your explanation also causes me to vow to never use ball valves since I have a dim view of human nature especially my own.

 

[Bobby_M]

Oh I get it you were just saying people associate NPT with ball valves, I got it.

Not quite. NPT threads and ball valves each have their own cleaning quirks that need to be addressed so it's worth talking about them separately. Why? Because there are ball valves without threads (TC flanges on both ends).

So, do you have to clean NPT stuff even if it's not used because the air lets stuff in?
If not, do you have to clean your NPT to TC adapter because the threads make contact with wort? Isn't there some way (in theory if not in practice) to prevent the wort from overflowing into the threads since the threads are on the outside not the inside? (like maybe a gasket?)

Anyways while I agree with you, your explanation also causes me to vow to never use ball valves since I have a dim view of human nature especially my own.

There really is no way to hide the threads from the wort path because the tapers mesh when they mesh. There is almost always interior threads exposed.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

Great post and one of those areas not a lot of folks think about when installing fittings all over our breweries. Every hose connection has some sort of connector and needs to be sanitized.

It doesn't take much to infect a batch of beer. I had two infected batches I traced down to some gunk inside of an elbow. Even after sanitizing several times that crap still lurked in there.

 

[Bassman2003]

Over the years I have come to realize that cleaning is way more important than sanitizing. Sanitizing is just a 1-3 minute scrape off of the easy to get to stuff.

I have tried to design NPT threads OUT of my system. Stupid threads if you ask me. My boil kettle does not have any kind of valve but rather a TC barb with a hose and external inline clamp. Nothing to hold gunk. My process is to immediately run hot PBW into my mash tun and boil kettle minutes after the wort leaves. Keep it wet and you have a much better chance of taking it all away.

 

[OakIslandBrewery]

I should have stated cleaning and sanitizing. Sanitizing doesn't do much good if it isn't cleaned first. I routinely do deep cleaning just as you posted.

 

[sibelman]

On the narrow question of valves: I've enjoyed the ease of cleaning Blichmann's "linear flow" valve, which is available NPT or TC.

 

[Bobby_M]

On the narrow question of valves: I've enjoyed the ease of cleaning Blichmann's "linear flow" valve, which is available NPT or TC.

For sure that's a great compromise between the sanitary nature of TC and the compactness of a simple ball valve.

 

[Yesfan]

I'm somewhat of an "anti-threadite", so I have done what I could to eliminate threads in my setup. I totally agree with Bobby about TC/NPT pros/cons, but I haven't regretted too much about upgrading my kettles. I do like how easy they break apart for deep cleans. Yes, they are more heavy with the TC ports and such.

I'll say this....When I first started brewing, the 3pc ball valve seemed to be the valve to have on the (more affordable) bling setups. I hated them and regretted getting them. I have the EZ clean ball valves Bobby sells. Instead of them being 3pc with 4 bolts holding everything together, it's a simple TC clamp. The only cons are the price and they are heavier than a standard 2pc/3pc valve. A 3rd con (more a pit pick) is I wish the end piece of the valve could be what you needed instead of a TC or NPT on both ends. My mashtun is homemade, so the ability of a valve with NPT on one end and TC on the other would be great.