Nottingham ale yeast vs US 05

[peterj]

I posted a similar question on another home-brew site and I was getting answers completely opposite of yours, guys. Seems you are a small minority that does this "ramping-up" of temps later in the fermentation. I was basically told there is no reason to do this.

I am not arguing, because I don't know enough to have any real opinion. That's the only reason I keep bringing it up - I am trying to learn!

Is there any fact-based evidence to these claims of better attenuation and "cleaner" beer?

I think I heard Jamil and maybe Palmer (can't remember) talk about doing it on their podcasts. I don't have any data or evidence to support it, nor have I really ever looked for any. I just liked the sound of it and it makes logical sense to me. Honestly I've never really noticed a difference between beers that I've done it on and ones I haven't. I wouldn't expect much of a difference either.

And slym2none, not that i have any long experience in the world of ag brewing but ive never raised my temps either and have no problems with attenuation or off flavors, at least as far as me and my friends are concerned. I think its another one of the reasons we love this hobby, its all about what you wanna do and what creates beers that you want to drink.

Exactly. It's really not a big deal and not that important. I do it when I can if I can remember. And I'm not very precise about it. When I see the krausen's just about fallen and it's starting to clear up, I'll usually up the temp however much I feel like at the time. It's not going to do any harm (because it's well after the bulk of fermentation is over anyway) and it may be beneficial and/or speed up the fermentation process.

 

[slym2none]

Thanks for being patient with me, guys! I appreciate the answers.

 

[sportpak]

Id actually like to do a split batch one time with both yeasts and do a side by side comparison, from what im hearing theyre very similar yeasts but subtly different

Basic brewing just did a video on it.
http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/d/e/0/de0...31722766&hwt=4243ae2f92586101dffe5c785f324869

 

[normonster]

Basic brewing just did a video on it.

http://hwcdn.libsyn.com/p/d/e/0/de0...31722766&hwt=4243ae2f92586101dffe5c785f324869

Unfortunately he doesn't specify the fermentation temperature. Wonder if he had both in the same chamber. Posts above got me wondering if I should do side by side....what's a good happy medium? I typically ferment US 05 at like 68.

 

[sportpak]

Unfortunately he doesn't specify the fermentation temperature. Wonder if he had both in the same chamber. Posts above got me wondering if I should do side by side....what's a good happy medium? I typically ferment US 05 at like 68.

I would ferment it like you normally do. That way you have an apples to apples example that reflects your process.

 

[jstringer1983]

Yeah thats more what im curious about too, i think im gonna try fermenting the notty right up where my 05 sits (66ish) and get a good idea of what it does at that temp. Then i can dial it down a few degrees if i want in the future.

 

[cyberbrew]

US-05 on the left, Notty on the right (pale ale - 6%abv, MO, amarillo, citra). This was a 10 gallon batch that I split (US-05 in a glass carboy, notty in conical). I maintained 63 inside the conical (SS brewtech 7 gal chronical) and left the carboy at ambient temps which were ~65. Needless to say the beers are very similar. The US-05 is definitely more crisp (great beer today in MD as it's pushing 90F outside) and cleaner. I get more orange from the amarillo in the US-05. The Notty is a rounder (for lack of a better word) flavor. The finish lingers longer with the Notty and in general it tastes smoother. This is about what I expected having brewed with both in the past, but it's always a fun experiment to try. Cheers!

 

[jstringer1983]

Awesome to get feedback like this, im looking forward to finding the differences with the notty. 05 has been my go to all along for my ales and i love the results but i also love experiments lol

 

[Yesfan]

I did this same thing just a few months ago with a brown ale I made.

link


I even bought a couple of commercial brown ales to compare. I don't think my thread is going to tell you much more than what the replies in this thread have already said, but I tried to keep everything equal as far as temps go and what not. The only difference between the split brown ale was the yeast. One was the control with Notty and the other had US-05, which is one of my fav dry yeasts.

The main issue I found is that Notty is a finicky animal if you ferment too high. The first time I made this brown ale, I fermented at 72F as that was the lowest I could get with my swamp cooler. That was two years ago, but fermenting this time around at 62F was a huge difference.

A brewer in the brew club I joined recently told me the next time I change up Notty for another yeast, to try Windsor. I might do that for another experiement.

 

[jstringer1983]

Ive heard of windsor, im probably wrong but isnt that an english ale yeast? Not that i wouldnt try it but 95% of my beers are apa styles so idk if that would work

 

[peterj]

Well Nottingham is an English ale yeast too actually. I've never used Windsor but I've heard it has pretty low attenuation and I think some pretty Englishy esters. Not sure it would be great for APAs. But could be worth a try.

 

[azazel1024]

I have seen this sort of thing a few times here on the site, raising the temp by 5 degrees or so later in the fermentation. Is this really necessary? Does it really make a difference? Is it a yeast-strain thing, or do you do this no matter what you brew with? I ask because I have only seen a few people talk about it, as in a small minority of you guys.

What's the reason behind this? I am a noob at this and am only looking for information, this is no way a snub. I am honestly curious.

Depends. I've found with some strains, especially a lot of English strains (Windsor, I am looking at you!) that they WILL absolutely go dormant if on the cooler end of their fermentation temp. I've overcarbed a couple of beers as result because they didn't finish the last couple of points.

If your temps are near the upper 60's, I doubt you'd need to.

However, I am fermenting some of my ales in the low 60's, like S05 I like using around 62F and warming to around 68-70F can sometimes get you those last couple of points of fermentation.

For lagers, yes, you generally need to, and there you want to warm it to 62-65F.

 

[azazel1024]

Well Nottingham is an English ale yeast too actually. I've never used Windsor but I've heard it has pretty low attenuation and I think some pretty Englishy esters. Not sure it would be great for APAs. But could be worth a try.

IMHO, the few beers I've used Windsor in, I've been very unimpressed. My go toos are Nottingham and S04 if I am using dry yeasts. Going to start trying out some of the English ale yeasts soon (I have a vial of WLP005 waiting for an English Stout in a few weeks).

 

[RmikeVT]

For what its worth, I just kegged up an IPA that I split. One with Notty the other with S-05; no other difference. Both went from 1.070 down to 1.011, so 83% attenuation. The notty took off faster, finished and dropped out quicker than s-05, but this is common knowledge.

I could taste a slight difference in the hydro samples, S-05 definitely a bit cleaner and crisper bitterness. Notty tasted a touch maltier and fuller. Jury is still out until they are cold and carbonated.

 

[peterj]

IMHO, the few beers I've used Windsor in, I've been very unimpressed. My go toos are Nottingham and S04 if I am using dry yeasts. Going to start trying out some of the English ale yeasts soon (I have a vial of WLP005 waiting for an English Stout in a few weeks).

I've been using Wyeast 1318 lately and I'm loving it. To me it's the best tasting English yeast out there. You should give it a try if you can.

 

[azazel1024]

I've been using Wyeast 1318 lately and I'm loving. To me it's the best tasting English yeast out there. You should give it a try if you can.

I'll see if I can. My LHBS only carries White Labs, but I can tack on some Wyeast when ordering from Morebeer.

I'll give it a shot at some point, thanks!

It was interesting bottling my English Mild yesterday. There were some fairly pronounced differences between S04 and Notty. The Notty finished at 1.008 and the S04 at 1.009 (before bottling sugar). It was in the mid-40's for IBUs and SG was only 1.044. The Notty, even though it was further attenuated actually tasted both slightly maltier and slightly more bitter. The S04 had a bit more fruity/estheriness to it. Could be slight differences in priming sugar that may have accounted for the malty/sweetness differences though (should be roughly the same). The S04 seemed to have a bit more of the coffeeness come through (I used half a pound of coffee malt in the 5 gallon batch), though both were very mild with it (har, har). The Notty was noticably more clear, both had been cold crashed to 34F for 30hrs prior to bottling.

Both were rather good beers (pre-carbed).

 

[reuliss]

Yes. I hate it if it gets above about 63 degrees. I haven't used it in years, as there are better "cleaner" strains at ale temperatures, and there are better English strains for English beers.



It does make a nice pseudo-lager at about 60 degrees, but that's about it. I used to use it a long time ago, and thought it was great, but my beers had a sort of 'homebrew' flavor that I realized much later was attributable to the nottingham yeast.

Yooper, are you exclusive liquid, or are there some dry strains you still use?

 

[RmikeVT]

For what its worth, I just kegged up an IPA that I split. One with Notty the other with S-05; no other difference. Both went from 1.070 down to 1.011, so 83% attenuation. The notty took off faster, finished and dropped out quicker than s-05, but this is common knowledge.

I could taste a slight difference in the hydro samples, S-05 definitely a bit cleaner and crisper bitterness. Notty tasted a touch maltier and fuller. Jury is still out until they are cold and carbonated.

Ok Folks, so my results are in. While both beers are really good IPA, the one with S-05 in a blind taste are both mine and my wife's preference. The one with S-05 cleaner and has a nice round finish, such that I think the flavors of the hops and bitterness blend well with the flavors of the yeast and have a rounded out smooth finish. The nottingham example finishes with a bit of harshness.

Conclusion:
Both yeasts attenuated equally. The clarity in the glass of finished beer was equal, although the nottingham attenuated and dropped out about a few days ahead of the s-05, but these are known characteristics of each yeast. In the final product the s-05 produced a much rounder pleasant bitterness while the nottingham was a bit more harsh, these were the primary differences of each yeast. The up front hop flavor, beer aroma, clarity were not significantly different, the noticeable difference was the finish. The S-05 had a round, full, clean bitterness while the Nottingham was noticeably sharper and harsher.

 

[jstringer1983]

I think this is a good example of what yeast works best for the style, you mentioned the hop flavors and bitterness were a bit more balanced with the 05, which is what ive loved about it. Its a great clean yeast and puts the stars of the show up front. Im all out of 05 now so im gonna make my blonde ale with the notty, maybe in a zero hop flavored beer ill be able to pick out its qualities

 

[azazel1024]

I'd say your experience mostly follows mine, though I haven't directly compared S05 to Nottingham. I have S04 to Nottingham with kind of similar results. Except that the S04 also is a hint maltier and much less clear. With my mild, 2 weeks in the fermenter, 24hrs cold crash at 36F, followed by bottling. 2 weeks after bottling, 24hrs in the fridge, the Nottingham was clear as glass (dark, 16SRM, but clear as glass). The S04 was very hazy still. Even a bottle in the fridge for 5 days was pretty hazy for the S04.

The Nottingham deffinitely enhanced the Willamette sharpness and the S04 was very rouded off. Too rounded off in my opinion for what I was going for. The Nottingham also enhanced the roastiness and toffee of the Crystal 90L and Coffee malt in the recipe. The S04 came across as bland.

IMHO, the S04 would make a great milk stout or maybe vanilla porter/stout yeast. Also if you were intentionally going for something really malty. The Nottingham deffinitely works better for milds, browns and dry stouts IMHO. At this point, not sure about English IPAs. S04 might be a better yeast for that because of the smoother hoppiness (my mild came in around 40-45IBU (I didn't time the hop additions that closely), but it isn't terrible bitter even though it is 4.5% ABV)).