not distilling related...

[bracconiere]

but i DON'T have a stuck ferment.....but i think two weeks to finish a 1.061 sugar wash is a bit much! it's been a week, it's down to 1.020, lost about 1.007 from yesterday, but looks like the yeast are starving....

any quick tips to put some fun back in the guy's? i used a wheat germ tea of about 1lb+ of wheat germ tea for 10 gallons...wine yeast premiere blanc....i even added some DAP to this batch, it's fermenting slower then the last i left the germ solids in....



ph is around 4.....should be alright?

(and this is just ideal conversation about something i'm working on that company would be fun to have, i'll get it figured out on my own if need be. but welcome creativity! )

 

[Sam_92]

Add some water or some oxygen? I know yeast get starved of nutruents fermenting plain old sugar, maybe some yeast nutrient?

 

[bracconiere]

maybe some yeast nutrient?

well i plan on drinking this straight up/with a twist of orange juice.....it worked last time, and better when i left the wheat germ pulp in, but wouldn't disspense through the keg.... and yeah @seatazzz if you want to chime in, i assure both my mom & dad are fast asleep! and haven't found the three secret refridgerators i use to sneak this under their noses yet!

damn thinking about it now though, i added alpha amylase to the last wheat germ tea, after it cooled to ~158f...hmmm, maybe a secret weapon? it was really just me trying to see if it'd strain better, so didn't do again this time....

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Well I hate to see this. I was thinking of trying some wheat germ the next time myself. I was going to ask you how much to use, haha. I need you to get this figured out soon in case I need to be spoon fed. I was amazed at how fast wash with some tomato paste clears. On the flip side of that I was surprised to see how long it took for some OJ to clear for me.

 

[bracconiere]

Well I hate to see this. I was thinking of trying some wheat germ the next time myself.

me too...let me go check the gravity now...well from yesterday afternoon's 1.020 to today it's at ~1.012 now, but i started this wash on the 6th of june 2022.....it's the 14th now? and i'm just used to beer being done in 4-5 days....


it is a 16 gallon fermenter, maybe i should just plan to ferment 15 gallons at a time for 3 kegs....

 

[Jaybird]

Add oxygen and stir like a mad scientist and you will probably roust em'

Cheers
Jay

 

[Jaybird]

me too...let me go check the gravity now...well from yesterday afternoon's 1.020 to today it's at ~1.012 now, but i started this wash on the 6th of june 2022.....it's the 14th now? and i'm just used to beer being done in 4-5 days....


it is a 16 gallon fermenter, maybe i should just plan to ferment 15 gallons at a time for 3 kegs....

8 days? Be patient brother. They have a hard hard life....

 

[bracconiere]

@Homebrew Harry well it's down to 1.005 or so today, and i'm drinking it....it's got an odd taste that i think is the DAP i added this time, i'd recomend against it...it's not bad, but i'd rather it wasn't there.....i don't think it helped anyway.....

 

[bracconiere]

i had two fermenters going with the germ sugar wash, just kegged the second one, that was started on the 7th... it finished at 0.995....

eyeballed half gallon of o.j. into the keg before filling them.....i'm not saying i'm quiting brewing, but in a pinch...


i'm making more wheat germ tea in the oven this time set to low.....i'm going to just let it steep for a few hours, then strain.....


and the one that was sluggish i left sitting in a graduated cyclinder with a hydro, and after another week, dropped to 0.995 too....

 

[bracconiere]

hey anyone with more sugar wash experience know if this idea would work to ease the process, put about 1 gallon of boiling hot water on the last batches yeast cake, wait 10-15 minutes, then top up with the rest of the water and add the sugar? i've read dead yeast can be used as nutrients?

 

[lumpher]

Better to use that cake to ferment your next batch of mash and use yeast nutrient. It'll take off like wildfire.

 

[bracconiere]

Better to use that cake to ferment your next batch of mash and use yeast nutrient. It'll take off like wildfire.

you mean like turbo yeast? that stuff is gross....

P.S. if it was a mash it'd have plenty of nutrients already, this is a wash.

 

[yaakov]

you mean like turbo yeast? that stuff is gross....

P.S. if it was a mash it'd have plenty of nutrients already, this is a wash.

A “wash” is sugar and water. A “mash” is made of water and other ingredients. A sugar wash needs lots of nutients. A mash probably doesn’t unless the OG is 1.095 or higher (as a rule). Boiling yeast will serve as a really good nutrient, however may not be enough for a sugar wash. It should certainly help. Mix in a couple of Tablespons of Tomato paste or a couple of Tablespoons of yeast nutrient. Check your PH AND ADJUST IT TO APPROX. 5.2 For starters. I have also read rhat putting a little hops bag, filled with some Oyster shells, will keep the PH from going too low and helps from getting a stuck fermentation…..but what do I know? I make beer.

 

[bracconiere]

A “wash” is sugar and water. A “mash” is made of water and other ingredients. A sugar wash needs lots of nutients. A mash probably doesn’t unless the OG is 1.095 or higher (as a rule). Boiling yeast will serve as a really good nutrient, however may not be enough for a sugar wash. It should certainly help. Mix in a couple of Tablespons of Tomato paste or a couple of Tablespoons of yeast nutrient. Check your PH AND ADJUST IT TO APPROX. 5.2 For starters. I have also read rhat putting a little hops bag, filled with some Oyster shells, will keep the PH from going too low and helps from getting a stuck fermentation…..but what do I know? I make beer.

is this directed at me, or the person i was responding too?

if at me, i need to clarify. i'm drinking this sugar wash kinda like a natural hard selzter...i'm only taking it to about 9% ABV, and then mixing in a keg with 64oz orange juice.

normally i would make a wheat germ tea, but wheat germ isn't that cheap, and messy to clean up after with the leftovers.

Let me fish you for a thought here, if i were to boil some active dry yeast to get 12lbs of sugar in 9 gallons of water to ferment dry. How many grams would i need to boil?

edit: best guess would be an acceptable response...

 

[yaakov]

is this directed at me, or the person i was responding too?

if at me, i need to clarify. i'm drinking this sugar wash kinda like a natural hard selzter...i'm only taking it to about 9% ABV, and then mixing in a keg with 64oz orange juice.

normally i would make a wheat germ tea, but wheat germ isn't that cheap, and messy to clean up after with the leftovers.

Let me fish you for a thought here, if i were to boil some active dry yeast to get 12lbs of sugar in 9 gallons of water to ferment dry. How many grams would i need to boil?

edit: best guess would be acceptable response...

sorry for not being clear to whom I was speaking, but it was to you. well, first of all, in all my imagination, I would say sugar wash tastes like crap to begin with. With turbo yeast….real crap. I went through the same illusionistic process that you are going through….I bought flavorings and everything. I suggest that you go on to youtube and look up Bearded and Bored. He makes hard seltzer from scratch in at least one of his videos…it is worth a watch.
I whipped up 14 gallons of sugar wash and ended up dumping the whole thing. He shows how to do small batches.
i could certainly recommend a couple teaspoons for a gallon, but it would taste horrible. They say that sugar wash only is half decent after it is distilled and pretty darn good after being distilled twice with a packed reflux column still, or equivalent. Doing bearded and bored may be your best bet. Also, they make yeast just for that purpose. I know that you hsbe been making beer for years and different yeasts give different flavors.
let me know how it goes

 

[bracconiere]

Let me know how it goes.

well i've already done wheat germ washes, didn't try it straight up, but with 1/2 gallon of oj in a keg, just kinda taste like watered down orange juice...


which is good enough to take a break from brewing for a bit...i guess at this point, i'll just give it a shot, i can always whip up wheat germ tea and add it to it afterwards if i don't get good fermentation.

(yeah i know adding a gallon of vodka and 4 gallons of straight orange juice, would be the best. but i try to watch my waist line! )

 

[McMullan]

Bung in some boiled spud juice (potato broth) next time. Nutritious for yeast and fairly neutral.

 

[bracconiere]

Bung in some boiled spud juice (potato broth) next time. Nutritious for yeast and fairly neutral.

huh, good idea, cheap too... Grate them in the food proccser then strain? how many pounds would you say for 9 gallons 9%ABV?


edit: and how about while they are cooling toss in some alpha amylase at the <160 mark?

 

[yaakov]

Bung in some boiled spud juice (potato broth) next time. Nutritious for yeast and fairly neutral.

Does the boiling break the potato starches down into fermentable sugars (which sugars?) or would adding some amylase enzyme at 150-155 F for an hour do the trick? Also 3ml of gluco amyldase and glucoamylase @ below 148F for 5 gallons would convert those pesky last unfermentable sugars. (Just thinking out loud, not trying to complicate or criticize anyone or anything.

 

[McMullan]

Does the boiling break the potato starches down into fermentable sugars (which sugars?) or would adding some amylase enzyme at 150-155 F for an hour do the trick? Also 3ml of gluco amyldase and glucoamylase @ below 148F for 5 gallons would convert those pesky last unfermentable sugars. (Just thinking out loud, not trying to complicate or criticize anyone or anything.

It's more about adding nutrients. Plenty of fermentable sugar already in the wash. Unless you want to make a spud whiskey, I'm not sure I'd bother converting the potato starch.by adding enzyme.

 

[bracconiere]

It's more about adding nutrients. Plenty of fermentable sugar already in the wash.

lol, wait.... for 9 gallons, 1 potato, 2 potato, or 3?

 

[McMullan]

huh, good idea, cheap too... Grate them in the food proccser then strain? how many pounds would you say for 9 gallons 9%ABV?


edit: and how about while they are cooling toss in some alpha amylase at the <160 mark?

Sliced, ~200g/L, unpeeled and boiled for about 30 minute then strain. I'd try about 1/2 oz per gallon, but that's just an edumicated guess.

 

[bracconiere]

edumicated

hmmm, so i'm thinking for 9 gallons, 2 lbs in 3.5 liters...pressure cook too bring up to pressure. turn off heat, let sit a few minutes....fast chill, then strain into the fermenter? (make potatos au-graten instead of have to clean up)


but that's just the webster definition of edumicated...

 

[yaakov]

hmmm, so i'm thinking for 9 gallons, 2 lbs in 3.5 liters...pressure cook too bring up to pressure. turn off heat, let sit a few minutes....fast chill, then strain into the fermenter? (make potatos au-graten instead of have to clean up)


but that's just the webster definition of edumicated...

funny! ;-)

 

[bwible]

They say that sugar wash only is half decent after it is distilled and pretty darn good after being distilled twice with a packed reflux column still, or equivalent.

There’s another site/equipment mfr called Still Spirits and they put up a similar process to make and distill a wash from sugar. With a sugar wash, you’re looking to make cheap vodka.

I’m not a stiller but read about it and I like alcohol. There are 2 kinds of stills. A pot still which is a simpler still is used to make whiskey or rum, where you want some of the flavor from the wash to come through. A column still has a bit more to it and is used more for neutral spirits. Vodka, or with a basket for botanicals, gin. Some column stills, especially the ones the big boys use have a number of plates in the column that cause much of the vapor to condense and fall back so only the purest vapor makes it to the top for collection. If it has 2 plates they say its twice distilled, if it has 8 plates they say its 8 times distilled, etc. On a smaller scale they pack the column with stainless balls or copper or ceramic bits, etc for the same effect.

 

[bwible]

Does the boiling break the potato starches down into fermentable sugars (which sugars?) or would adding some amylase enzyme at 150-155 F for an hour do the trick? Also 3ml of gluco amyldase and glucoamylase @ below 148F for 5 gallons would convert those pesky last unfermentable sugars. (Just thinking out loud, not trying to complicate or criticize anyone or anything.

They do make vodka from potatoes. But I’m not sure if potatoes naturally have any enzymes or if boiling creates any sugars. The boiling is to gelatinize the potatoes. We don’t make beer with potatoes (normally) but corn and rice are more commonly used. I have one old brewing textbook from the 1930s that talks about a cereal mash and a cereal cooker. They cooked the corn or rice to gelatinize it. We could do this on a homebrew scale but its easier to just buy flaked corn where its already done. In beer we add the corn to a barley mash to use the enzymes from the barley to get the sugar out of the corn. Pre-Pro beers were 6 row and corn. I imagine for making potato vodka they would boil and gelatinize the potatoes and probably have to add some enzymes.

 

[yaakov]

They do make vodka from potatoes. But I’m not sure if potatoes naturally have any enzymes or if boiling creates any sugars. The boiling is to gelatinize the potatoes. We don’t make beer with potatoes (normally) but corn and rice are more commonly used. I have one old brewing textbook from the 1930s that talks about a cereal mash and a cereal cooker. They cooked the corn or rice to gelatinize it. We could do this on a homebrew scale but its easier to just buy flaked corn where its already done. In beer we add the corn to a barley mash to use the enzymes from the barley to get the sugar out of the corn. Pre-Pro beers were 6 row and corn. I imagine for making potato vodka they would boil and gelatinize the potatoes and probably have to add some enzymes.

Yes, because potatoes are a big hassle to use. The amount of alcohol that you get for the mess snd volume of potatoes that you use just isn’t worth it. There are distilleries that make excellent potato vodka (which I prefer), mostly in Poland. For a home distiller it would be a major pain in the ass. Check out Jessie on Still It (youtube). He does a run of potato vodka, but mainly shows how to work with potatoes. Flaked corn works great with Barley…the Barley enzymes break down the starches in the corn and bring out the sugars for fermentation. 150-155F for an hour. You could go further with Glucoamylase (follow instructions on packaging, then add more) and Amyloglucosidase to break down unfermentable sugars (polymers and maltrose) 1-3 ml / 5 gallons into fermentable glucose. So I would say that potatoes, for any purpose in brewing need enzymes from either malted grain or supplemented to be worth anything in alcohol production.
As far as using potatoes for a nutrient in hard seltzer, I couldn’t say

 

[TheBluePhantom]

Well I hate to see this. I was thinking of trying some wheat germ the next time myself. I was going to ask you how much to use, haha. I need you to get this figured out soon in case I need to be spoon fed. I was amazed at how fast wash with some tomato paste clears. On the flip side of that I was surprised to see how long it took for some OJ to clear for me.

Did you use pectic enzyme in that? I did an orange juice wine from Keller's website and the orange juice cleared well. The big problem was I lost about 10% volume. Next time I will compensate. And there will be a next time, the acid is a bit high for me but the result was spectacular. I may just use something to reduce acid.

 

[yaakov]

Did you use pectic enzyme in that? I did an orange juice wine from Keller's website and the orange juice cleared well. The big problem was I lost about 10% volume. Next time I will compensate. And there will be a next time, the acid is a bit high for me but the result was spectacular. I may just use something to reduce acid.

I am not a wine maker, by any means, so I want to learn something here. Before you ferment your Orange wine, do you adjust the PH? I realize that is far from a total, if hardly anything adjustment for final product. when you ferment something so acidic the PH would drop like rocks and maybe stick the fermentation? Am I way off?
Maybe some crushed Oyster shells in a hops bag dropped in during primary fermentation would help by keeping the PH up?
If that is totally off base, how would you adjust it at the end without destroying clarity?
Just some curious questions for my learning sake.
Just one more ignorant question..what is the address for Keller’s website?

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Did you use pectic enzyme in that? I did an orange juice wine from Keller's website and the orange juice cleared well. The big problem was I lost about 10% volume. Next time I will compensate. And there will be a next time, the acid is a bit high for me but the result was spectacular. I may just use something to reduce acid.

Well I only put a small amount of oj in some stalled sugar wash so I didn't think I would need any. It got the wash going tho. If I try it again I will def use pectin enzyme. On the same day I made some new wash and I added an ounce of tomato paste to that one. The tomato paste worked pretty good and cleared much faster. When it was finished it did not smell like tomatoes as it did in the beginning.

 

[TheBluePhantom]

I am not a wine maker, by any means, so I want to learn something here. Before you ferment your Orange wine, do you adjust the PH? I realize that is far from a total, if hardly anything adjustment for final product. when you ferment something so acidic the PH would drop like rocks and maybe stick the fermentation? Am I way off?
Maybe some crushed Oyster shells in a hops bag dropped in during primary fermentation would help by keeping the PH up?
If that is totally off base, how would you adjust it at the end without destroying clarity?
Just some curious questions for my learning sake.
Just one more ignorant question..what is the address for Keller’s website?

That was one of my first projects. I don't remember adding any acid, definitely didn't reduce it. I did ferment too warm and it came out hot, but I bottled it anyway. Came back over a year later and opened one to see if it could at least used for cooking. It had mellowed perfectly, still one of the best ever.

To reduce acid these days I just use one of the packaged powders, calcium carbonate or potassium bicarbonate.

His original site was taken down when he passed away, If you search for "Jack Keller recipes" you will find a partial collection, but I didn't see the orange wine recipe.

I looked in my computer and found a partial list. The original recipe mentions orange juice, but was actually for oranges. It only gives tannin and yeast nutrient as additives. He does put a shot of cointreau in each bottle, and I agree, the spicing added is great. I remember using 5 gallons of juice and table sugar from the supermarket. ONce I added pectic enzyme everything dropped like a rock. Definetly ferment below 68, I did it at about 71 and got orange rocket fuel until it aged. Very strong orange flavor and amazing color, a bit too acidic on the first batch, but I didn't have a ph meter at the time. I would have to go digging to see if I had the original gravity. It does need to be back sweetened to balance.

If it didn't come out drinkable plan B was going to be make orange chicken with it. I still think that would have been killer.

Forgot to mention. He had a book published with some of his recipes.

Home Winemaking: The Simple Way to Make Delicious Wine: Keller Jr., Jack B., Pambianchi, Daniel: 9781591939474: Amazon.com: Books

 

[yaakov]

That was one of my first projects. I don't remember adding any acid, definitely didn't reduce it. I did ferment too warm and it came out hot, but I bottled it anyway. Came back over a year later and opened one to see if it could at least used for cooking. It had mellowed perfectly, still one of the best ever.

To reduce acid these days I just use one of the packaged powders, calcium carbonate or potassium bicarbonate.

His original site was taken down when he passed away, If you search for "Jack Keller recipes" you will find a partial collection, but I didn't see the orange wine recipe.

I looked in my computer and found a partial list. The original recipe mentions orange juice, but was actually for oranges. It only gives tannin and yeast nutrient as additives. He does put a shot of cointreau in each bottle, and I agree, the spicing added is great. I remember using 5 gallons of juice and table sugar from the supermarket. ONce I added pectic enzyme everything dropped like a rock. Definetly ferment below 68, I did it at about 71 and got orange rocket fuel until it aged. Very strong orange flavor and amazing color, a bit too acidic on the first batch, but I didn't have a ph meter at the time. I would have to go digging to see if I had the original gravity. It does need to be back sweetened to balance.

If it didn't come out drinkable plan B was going to be make orange chicken with it. I still think that would have been killer.

Forgot to mention. He had a book published with some of his recipes.

Home Winemaking: The Simple Way to Make Delicious Wine: Keller Jr., Jack B., Pambianchi, Daniel: 9781591939474: Amazon.com: Books

https://swguildpa.com/wp-content/up...ler-Complete-Requested-Recipes-Collection.pdf

 

[bracconiere]

well i added boiling water to my yeast cake...topped up with water, pitched wine yeast....it's active now, i added the yeast around 5pm yesterday, it's 10am day after....

i get a brix of 16.1, and a hydro of 1.065...gives me 8 gallons with the 12lbs of sugar i added, and already at 0.2% ABV, i'll report back tomorrow if it's actually fermenting or not....

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Bro. You left us hangin'

 

[bracconiere]

Bro. You left us hangin'

tell you the truth i couldn't tell for sure if it was fermenting or not, and was for concrete evidence one way or the other....

so i added the boiling water, 7-6-22 (Wednesday of last week) the OG with 12lbs of sugar was ~1.070... first day after, down to 1.060...looking good but the hydro starts creeping up with the active fermentation. so it's tough to know, second day 1.050 or so...subsequent days still 1.050....Sunday, yesterday, i filled a BIG hop bag with a few cups of wheat germ and tossed in hoping for a cold brew...

I'll check it now.

P.S. i should point out this is at 5psi....and if got two days ferment with a weak sugar wash yeast cake maybe it'd work with a nice big beer one?

 

[bracconiere]

@Homebrew Harry damn you just saved my batch! glad you asked, i opened the fermenter up, and that hop bag with wheat germ was floating half way up above the surface! covered in wheat germ stuff....it would have shurely molded by tomorrow if i didn't pull it...

it's down to 1.040 now, and it's a rolling ferment also, not just a fizzy one....so the yeast were kind of a lack luster 1 star nutrient...


(i was going to kinda be creeped out by drinking canibal booze anyway! reminds me 'mad cow disease'. )

 

[Homebrew Harry]

Wheat germ stuff doesn't sound pretty. Glad you caught it.

 

[bracconiere]

Wheat germ stuff doesn't sound pretty. Glad you caught it.

it was still a pure unadulterated virgin, and silky white. but in a day it would have been black, or green....

 

[brewster2012]

Next time I'd invert the sugar by boiling for an hour or so with some citric acid or cream of tartar. As I understand it, this turns the sucrose into glucose and fructose which the yeast have an easier time converting to alcohol.

 

[bracconiere]

well i kinda feel like i'm in a room full of crack heads, trying to think straight...


but as an update, i just dropped a hydro in this again, even though the yeast cake didn't happen and this is now just a cold brew wheat germ wash...

this time i got 1.030-1.040, which crept up to ~1.050....but i decided to double check with my refrac got 11.4 BRIX with a known 12lbs of sugar in an eyeballed 8-9 gallons..

so a corrected gravity of 1.028-1.030....

i haven't given up on the creative reuse of a yeast cake YET, i'll try one more time, (i've heard people swear by it?) but i'll use the refrac for gravity readings instead of a hydrometer next time.