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Try fermenting 1318 at a lower temperature. From my experiences, there’s a pretty decent difference between 18C-22C.I’ve made a lot of NEIPAs that I think are pretty good. I get to Treehouse once a year and regard them as the pinnacle (and places like trillium and Bissell bros.) and the sort of character I’m after. Other Half, too, they’ve got an brewery near my office in DC.
I’ve always used either Conan (gigayeast at first then white labs) or the mix of s04/wb06/t58 from the treehouse yeast thread. I think the mix has given me the best results but I probably use WLP095 the most out of convenience. I get big hop flavor and aroma, but I’ve always been chasing the mouthfeel and appearance of those breweries I mentioned.
Anyway, it’s been about a year since I last brewed as I’ve renovated my basement brewery. I made one 3 weeks ago with 1318. Mashed a bit higher than usual at 158. Finished pretty high, around 1.021. I usuallly finish around 1.014 with other yeasts. It tastes a bit sweeter and heavier than I’d like.
As for mouthfeel, this is clearly better than my past attempts. It’s smooth and soft and full.
As for the appearance, it is exactly what I wanted. At least in the sun. It’s a bit murkier inside, but I think that’s pretty typical. I’ll have to pay attention to the lighting next time I get up to NE.
As for flavor, I’m torn. The hops just don’t pop like they did with my previous brews. I think the flavor is more yeast than hops? It’s a familiar taste that reminds me of commercial NEIPAs at places that don’t quite stack up to treehouse/trillium, at least to my taste.
I may try a hochkurz mash next time to make it a bit more fermentable. Hopefully that won’t detract from the mouthfeel.
Ive been step mashing my NEIPAs for quite some time now and I think its helped me control for hitting my target FG as well as enhance the foam retention overall. My step mashes are hochkurz-like but not exact. From what Ive read, this step mashing is about 145F for 30min and then ~160F for another 30 minutes. Ive been doing 150F for 30-40minutes and then 162 for 20-30min followed by a mashout at 170 for 10. Obviously the longer you stay low the lower the FG will be and when considering the yeast you are using with it you can get a good idea on what the target FG will be. Im still tinkering with this step mash schedule as well. I've more recently done 150 for 30 and 162 for 30 and 170 for 10 and liked the results overall.I’ve made a lot of NEIPAs that I think are pretty good. I get to Treehouse once a year and regard them as the pinnacle (and places like trillium and Bissell bros.) and the sort of character I’m after. Other Half, too, they’ve got an brewery near my office in DC.
I’ve always used either Conan (gigayeast at first then white labs) or the mix of s04/wb06/t58 from the treehouse yeast thread. I think the mix has given me the best results but I probably use WLP095 the most out of convenience. I get big hop flavor and aroma, but I’ve always been chasing the mouthfeel and appearance of those breweries I mentioned.
Anyway, it’s been about a year since I last brewed as I’ve renovated my basement brewery. I made one 3 weeks ago with 1318. Mashed a bit higher than usual at 158. Finished pretty high, around 1.021. I usuallly finish around 1.014 with other yeasts. It tastes a bit sweeter and heavier than I’d like.
As for mouthfeel, this is clearly better than my past attempts. It’s smooth and soft and full.
As for the appearance, it is exactly what I wanted. At least in the sun. It’s a bit murkier inside, but I think that’s pretty typical. I’ll have to pay attention to the lighting next time I get up to NE.
As for flavor, I’m torn. The hops just don’t pop like they did with my previous brews. I think the flavor is more yeast than hops? It’s a familiar taste that reminds me of commercial NEIPAs at places that don’t quite stack up to treehouse/trillium, at least to my taste.
I may try a hochkurz mash next time to make it a bit more fermentable. Hopefully that won’t detract from the mouthfeel.
FYI Verdant is great, but it drops out pretty clear. Made my first Verdant NEIPA and within 2 weeks it's not thick and hazy. Plenty fruity and tasty, just not thick like all my past neipas.Thanks. I’ll try both the step mash and the lower fermentation temps. I have a pack of verdant that I might try next, too.
I dropped all flaked adjuncts from my recipe around 6 months ago and was still getting nice stable haze and mouthfeel, but I switched to Mecca Grade malts. They must be higher in protein content (also more $$). Their 2 Row (Lamonta) and White Wheat (Shaniko) create a deep orange and THICK beer. Super tasty too. Only disadvantage is my local HB shop doesn't carry them, so it's hard to plan an impromptu brew day.I’ve always used 10-15% each of flaked wheat and oats for haze, mouthfeel, and foam. But I’ve always been a bit skeptical. Treehouse claims not to use any. It looks like trillium does sometimes, like with Vicinity, but not in Melcher Street. Both are favorites of mine. So that suggested to me that it’s not necessary. But I also follow a lot of what Janish writes and his brewery is right by my LHBS so I stop in every now and then. Their stuff is really good, but different from Treehouse/Trillium.
This time I used 2 row, malted wheat, c20 (going for orange color), and chit. I made 2 batches over back to back weeks. The one pictured above has spelt instead of malted wheat. The one with wheat is transferring to a keg right now. (Both finished around 1.021).
I was surprised that I got the appearance and mouthfeel I’ve been striving for without any oats and without any flaked adjuncts. I assume it’s bc of 1318. I think I’ll split my next batch and ferment one with conan and one with 1318 or verdant.
I dropped all flaked adjuncts from my recipe around 6 months ago and was still getting nice stable haze and mouthfeel, but I switched to Mecca Grade malts. They must be higher in protein content (also more $$). Their 2 Row (Lamonta) and White Wheat (Shaniko) create a deep orange and THICK beer. Super tasty too. Only disadvantage is my local HB shop doesn't carry them, so it's hard to plan an impromptu brew day.
They have some fantastic malts. Sometimes they have deals on them, I'd just get a bag of 2-row and their wheat for NEIPA's for more casual brewing needs.
On the subject of their Shaniko, they actually have another Wheat malt that they created specifically for Alvarado street. Apparently it's the highest protein content of any wheat on the market...
Would love to try it, but I live in Illinois
Awesome. They ship sacks, but it gets crazy expensive. That's for 1 50# 2 Row and 1 50# Wheat.View attachment 771229 Ridiculous.
I do NB too. I have a shipment on the way! But it would be nice to have it in bulk. I'll see if my local shop can order me a few sacks.Yeah, it's pretty intense. I would try and chat with your local LHBS's or a local brewer that you think may use the malt and see if they'd want to place an order together. I think it's much cheaper to order these in bulk.
I personally get Mecca from Northern Brewer right now, it's free shipping on orders over $50.
That's going to be a THICC beerI’ve done it both ways and it comes out pretty even. The prices that Northern Brewer charges are so high that even with the free shipping, you’re going to spend just around $50 on the grains For approximately 15 pounds. The prices direct from Mecca are pretty comparable to any other grain. But the shipping basically doubles it and makes it about $50. Group buys are definitely the way to go if possible.
I currently have 11 pounds of Lamonta, 3 pounds of Shaniko, and 2 pounds of Alvarado ready for my next brew day.
I’ve done it both ways and it comes out pretty even. The prices that Northern Brewer charges are so high that even with the free shipping, you’re going to spend just around $50 on the grains For approximately 15 pounds. The prices direct from Mecca are pretty comparable to any other grain. But the shipping basically doubles it and makes it about $50. Group buys are definitely the way to go if possible.
I currently have 11 pounds of Lamonta, 3 pounds of Shaniko, and 2 pounds of Alvarado ready for my next brew day.
@Whalewang I mean there are so many options and everything has its pros and cons. I think for this style the critical feature is some pressure capabilities so you can cold crash and transfer easily without o2 exposure. For full 15g in one vessel you are probably looking at the spike or the SSBT conicals. I have a spike CF10 and it’s great and as advertised and you can’t go wrong… BUT I’m not totally convinced big concials are the way to go and it’s certainly not necessary - it’s just a lot of stuff to deal with and clean, it doesn’t make better beer than when I fermented in kegs, that big of volume is so heavy you can’t carry it anywhere. So I’d split my vote for getting a CF15 or just getting three 7 gallon kegmenters with floating dip tubes and filters. It would let you split batches for yeast and dry hop trials. This is a pretty alternative position I’ll admit. Of course it’s not as sexy and you can’t dump yeast or trub. The other obvious choice would be three CF5s and glycol to run them all but that’s gonna cost you an arm and a dik.
@Whalewang I mean there are so many options and everything has its pros and cons. I think for this style the critical feature is some pressure capabilities so you can cold crash and transfer easily without o2 exposure. For full 15g in one vessel you are probably looking at the spike or the SSBT conicals. I have a spike CF10 and it’s great and as advertised and you can’t go wrong… BUT I’m not totally convinced big concials are the way to go and it’s certainly not necessary - it’s just a lot of stuff to deal with and clean, it doesn’t make better beer than when I fermented in kegs, that big of volume is so heavy you can’t carry it anywhere. So I’d split my vote for getting a CF15 or just getting three 7 gallon kegmenters with floating dip tubes and filters. It would let you split batches for yeast and dry hop trials. This is a pretty alternative position I’ll admit. Of course it’s not as sexy and you can’t dump yeast or trub. The other obvious choice would be three CF5s and glycol to run them all but that’s gonna cost you an arm and a dik.
5) they are working on a “hazy” strain that will up the Thiol releasing to 300x just as starparty does. Moreover the strain is also cable of making its own linalool, geraniol, and Myrcene
The cosmic punch yeast is amazing at my brewery we’re only dry hopping at a pound per barrel using it and there is so much aroma and flavoreJust wanted to share a few things back to back.
This past Wednesday, my Homebrew club (The Albany Brew Crafters) was fortunate enough to have Omega yeast give us a presentation on bioengineered yeast, which genes they select, the process of hybridizing, exactly what their strains can do, and projects currently in RD and trials. The coolest part is that Lance Shaner himself gave us the presentation.
Anywho some fun facts from the presentation.
1) The gene that thiolizes actually comes from a bacteria that lives in our armpits, behind our knees, and in the nether regions lol. They are responsible for body odor, which is actually a Thiol very related to the hop Thiol 4mhp, hence why sometimes you get BO/cat piss from certain hop varieties.
2) Cosmic Punch has the bio availability to release thiols to 10x the sensory threshold, but Starparty far exceeds that at 300x the threshold
3) mash hoping can up the Thiol production between 2-5x the threshold. He suggested mashhopping is beneficial for cosmic punch, but not necessary for starparty.
4) they currently have trials going at some big name breweries using a thiolized Lager Strain
5) they are working on a “hazy” strain that will up the Thiol releasing to 300x just as starparty does. Moreover the strain is also cable of making its own linalool, geraniol, and Myrcene
6) lance highly suggested making a simple blonde ale using starparty so you can see how efficient it is and the profile it creates
It was one of the best things I’ve attended. Great experience.
Going with @Noob_Brewer hopping schedule for today’s unscheduled brew day. I have a ton of Columbus and Columbus Lupomax and got a pound of Galaxy a couple months ago from the YVH hop sale. My homebrew shop was out of spelt (and Chit malt which would have been my sub) so I went with white wheat and malted oats. Fermenting with Juice and hoping all turns out well.Thanks man! I don't think that Ive posted this hop schedule before but I will say its "trilliumesque" i.e. congress street style (which is still one of my favorites from trillium. So its primarily Columbus on the hot side with primarily galaxy on the cold side dry hop. While I have done this hop combo several times, Ive always tweaked it and this latest one is my favorite.
Boil: All Columbus - 0.75oz @15min, 0.5oz @10min, 0.5oz @5min
WP: All at 155F - 1.5oz Columbus Lupomax for 45min, 1.5oz Columbus & 1.0oz Galaxy for 30min.
DH1: 1.5oz Columbus Lupomax, 3.0oz Galaxy
DH2: 4.0oz Galaxy
*DH2 is 24 hrs after DH1. I soft crash to 53F for ~36hrs and then do DHs. I typically start hard crash to 38F 24hrs post DH2 and hold until kegging. So essentially Im kegging ~4-5days (depending on my life schedule) after the first DH.
I absolutely LOVE Columbus and Columbus Lupomax is the bomb. Columbus, for me, gives "authentic" fresh hop out of the bag vibe and adds nice dank/resin with grapefruit balance to the intense sweet fruit/passionfruit citrus that galaxy gives. So they balance each other out VERY well resulting in a multi-dimensionally hopped beer experience. I THINK trillium goes exclusively with Columbus on hot side and galaxy on cold side for congress street but not for sure. But when I tasted the sample pre-dryhop, with a touch of galaxy on hot side and mostly all Columbus, the flavor is fantastic as the galaxy balances the dankness/fresh earthy hop that Columbus gives. This hop combo IMHO reminds me of a magical "Sweet & Sour" asian mixture. They balance each other VERY well.
Cheers!
Jeez... I need a lot of catching up to do then! No "biotransformation" dry hopping on the 2-3rd day of fermentation anymore?Trend here seems to be dry hopping in one charge post-fermentation.
I'm not yet convinced. Still experimenting myself. But I'd either do half and half or all post-fermentation. I wouldn't do all during active fermentation.Jeez... I need a lot of catching up to do then! No "biotransformation" dry hopping on the 2-3rd day of fermentation anymore?
If you are doing a proper whirlpool the assumption is that there's already a significant amount of hop matter already in suspension for those first few days and biotransformation is happening to a certain degree anyway.Jeez... I need a lot of catching up to do then! No "biotransformation" dry hopping on the 2-3rd day of fermentation anymore?
Totally agreeIf you are doing a proper whirlpool the assumption is that there's already a significant amount of hop matter already in suspension for those first few days and biotransformation is happening to a certain degree anyway.
Hey mate, any chance you can elaborate on the break / clean wort topic a bit. Always a lot of differing views on this and haven't really been able to find any good online articles. Cheers.High protein malted grain, step mashing, getting a good hot/cold break, transferring as clean as posssible wort from the kettle to the fermenter, and crashing well. This should keep a lot of the foam positive proteins in suspension and leave all of the high molecular weight proteins out.
After that, setting a proper carb level and using the “slow pour method”. it’s used primarily for lagers but If you love foam, you should pour all your beers this way
What brewery? And are you a brewer there?The cosmic punch yeast is amazing at my brewery we’re only dry hopping at a pound per barrel using it and there is so much aroma and flavore
I start by planning to leave 1.5 gallons in the kettle. I’ll then sift all foam off the top of the wort as it’s heating/starting to boiling. I don’t personally use whirlfloc in my NEIPA but you could. After your knock out and whirlpool, chill as quickly as you can so you get a cold break and your wort is nearly clear. Then try to transfer the clearest wort info your fermenter. This should improve foam and head retentionHey mate, any chance you can elaborate on the break / clean wort topic a bit. Always a lot of differing views on this and haven't really been able to find any good online articles. Cheers.
Just to touch on this again, Roaring Table, which has won awards for their hazy beers, dry hops during fermentation and afterwards. This morning, I listened to a podcast with the head brewer from Surly who says that for their core hazys, they use two dry hop charges--one at the same time they pitch yeast and the other just before it reaches terminal gravity. I've been reading and listening to the brewer from Wayfarer a bit lately, too, and he dry hops during fermentation.Jeez... I need a lot of catching up to do then! No "biotransformation" dry hopping on the 2-3rd day of fermentation anymore?
Just a reminder that his book came out in 2019 (3 years ago) and his research and processes he discusses from big name breweries were from even before that, assuming it took him atleast the 2 years to write the book so we can assume it’s 5 years or older. Thiols are not discussed and the researched that proved which hop compounds that can actually be biotransformed and the strains that can do it were also not solidified yet.Just to touch on this again, Roaring Table, which has won awards for their hazy beers, dry hops during fermentation and afterwards. This morning, I listened to a podcast with the head brewer from Surly who says that for their core hazys, they use two dry hop charges--one at the same time they pitch yeast and the other just before it reaches terminal gravity. I've been reading and listening to the brewer from Wayfarer a bit lately, too, and he dry hops during fermentation.
There are a lot of people here that are heavily influenced by the writings of Scott Janish. And rightfully so. I am one myself. I read all his stuff and occasionally make it out to his brewery. My understanding, and this might be wrong, is that his work sort of sent a lot of the people here on the post-fermentation dry hop route. He certainly planted that idea in my head. But if I remember right, toward the end of his book, he talks about the processes used by a bunch of different breweries and they're all different. Some dry hop during fermentation, some after.
Ultimately, I very strongly believe that there is a huge divergence in what people think NEIPAs are/should be. I still remember the first NEIPA I had--a growler of Haze from their Monson Brewery, opened at a nearby byo bbq place because Treehouse didn't have a license to drink on premises. From that moment, their beers have been cemented in my head as what a NEIPA "should" be (more accurately, what I want in a NEIPA). But there's probably 20 breweries in my area that make NEIPAs and only three that I think are worth emulating. Two of those make NEIPAs that are very different from Treehouse but still delicious (Astrolab & Janish's Sapwood). Other Half dc is the other, which is in line with what I have cemented in my mind of what a NEIPA "should" be (subjectively!).
I've never had NEIPAs from Roaring Table, Surly, or Wayfarer. So I can't say whether their process is more or less likely to achieve what I want than what those here advocate. Its not quite like brewing an American Pale Ale where we all have Sierra Nevada Pale Ale in mind as the traditional example. It makes comparing notes a lot more challenging, IMO. So we've all got to experiment and see for ourselves!
What podcast was that? I'd like to give it a listen.This morning, I listened to a podcast with the head brewer from Surly
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