New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[aaronm13]

Would love to get my hands on some of that Cosmic Punch, looks wild. It'll never launch over here unfortunately with it being GMO, the EU will probably never go for it.

 

[TBA]

I was under the same impression as couchsending. Use hops in mash with high amount of precursors and GMO Cosmic Punch yeast. Then you get thiol production.

I know we all just got our hands on this stuff but wondering what the best temperature is to maximize the thiol production.

 

[couchsending]

I was under the same impression as couchsending. Use hops in mash with high amount of precursors and GMO Cosmic Punch yeast. Then you get thiol production.

I know we all just got our hands on this stuff but wondering what the best temperature is to maximize the thiol production.

True there is a difference between bound and free I guess... however 3MH doesn’t generally volatize during the boil, if anything it increases (which could be from malt??). So starting with hops high in 3MH (bound or free) on the hotside will leave you with more in the fermenter. You’re looking for yeast to convert 3MH to 3MHA which is the tropical/passion fruit thiol. If not 100% sure but I believe you’d have to add the Hops high in bound 3MH to the cold side during fermentation in order for them to be released?? Could be wrong on that.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

That presentation is a bit weird as it conflicts with the whole “survivable” chart that YCH released last year. They chart the 3MH precursor and cascade has very little. HBC520 has the most according to that chart, followed by Millenium, then maybe idaho7 and Comet.

I was screwing around with Mt Hood and Millenium on the hotside for a while. Not 100% sure I noticed any sort of additional tropical character or not but I wasn’t making the same exact beer over and over.

An interesting observation is the similarity of Mt Hood to Citra when it comes to “Survivability”. They’re incredibly similar and obviously Mt Hood is a lot cheaper.

I agree that the survivable data charts vs the brewers association link I posted appear at odds, but I don't think the survivable chart actually includes the precursor form of 3MH, it just includes "3MH" listed int he legend in addition to the fact that cascade is on the low end due to the lower alcohols, hop esters and acids as well, all of which contribute to the "survivable" chart. In contrast, the brewers association presentation separates out free vs precursor forms of 3MH in separate charts. While cascade and Simcoe are low in free 3mh thiols they are very high in precursor form. Cosmic Punch has marketed the yeast to biotransform the precursor form of 3MH to 3MH - primarily grapefruit with some passion fruit, but not as much passion fruit as 3MHA which is exclusively tropical/passion fruit. So the goal is to load up the wort in the fermenter with as much 3MH and 3MH precursors as possible for cosmic punch do do its job. Very interesting to say the least. Would really like to see other third party research on this topic rather than just the manufacturer too, but still fascinating.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

True there is a difference between bound and free I guess... however 3MH doesn’t generally volatize during the boil, if anything it increases (which could be from malt??). So starting with hops high in 3MH (bound or free) on the hotside will leave you with more in the fermenter. You’re looking for yeast to convert 3MH to 3MHA which is the tropical/passion fruit thiol. If not 100% sure but I believe you’d have to add the Hops high in bound 3MH to the cold side during fermentation in order for them to be released?? Could be wrong on that.

I can't find where I read it but agree that 3MH in any form increases in the boil. But I don't think that cosmic punch specifically was designed to convert 3MH to 3MHA - only "unlock" or convert the 3MH precursor to 3MH. I can't speak to whether the hops high in bound 3MH would "release" the other bound 3MH already present but Omega is banking on the fact that its their yeast doing the biotransforming from precursor form to thiol form. I'll be doing a couple of brews with this yeast (one at present is soft crashing) and considering doing one without the soft crash pre-dry hop in order to allow as much of the cosmic punch yeast to biotransform the precursors from the dry hops to their thiol compounds. Still don't know though if I want to try adding the DH to high Krausen though. Feels like we are living in the Wild West these days with figuring all this out especially when a GMO yeast comes our way. I will say though that my hydrometer sample after FG and pre-soft crash was REALLY good and had strong grapefruit followed by great tropical vibe when using only Columbus and cascade hot side. So there seems to be something to this stuff IMHO.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Fermcap!!!

The amount of people that dont use fermcap is astounding to me.

Why bother with blowoffs and all that nonsense?

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I can't find where I read it but agree that 3MH in any form increases in the boil. But I don't think that cosmic punch specifically was designed to convert 3MH to 3MHA - only "unlock" or convert the 3MH precursor to 3MH. I can't speak to whether the hops high in bound 3MH would "release" the other bound 3MH already present but Omega is banking on the fact that its their yeast doing the biotransforming from precursor form to thiol form. I'll be doing a couple of brews with this yeast (one at present is soft crashing) and considering doing one without the soft crash pre-dry hop in order to allow as much of the cosmic punch yeast to biotransform the precursors from the dry hops to their thiol compounds. Still don't know though if I want to try adding the DH to high Krausen though. Feels like we are living in the Wild West these days with figuring all this out especially when a GMO yeast comes our way. I will say though that my hydrometer sample after FG and pre-soft crash was REALLY good and had strong grapefruit followed by great tropical vibe when using only Columbus and cascade hot side. So there seems to be something to this stuff IMHO.

What did your hotside schedule look like?

 

[beervoid]

The amount of people that dont use fermcap is astounding to me.

Why bother with blowoffs and all that nonsense?

I tried it and still got blowoffs, some of those british strains dont give a f about antifoam hehe.
Lower ferm temps do help though

 

[wepeeler]

I tried it and still got blowoffs, some of those british strains dont give a f about antifoam hehe.
Lower ferm temps do help though

It doesn't necessarily help with blowouts during fermentation, but it's a must for big starters and boiling absurd amounts of wort in a kettle that's technically too small to do so.

 

[couchsending]

It can also help the foam in your glass

 

[ThatVideoKid]

I tried it and still got blowoffs, some of those british strains dont give a f about antifoam hehe.
Lower ferm temps do help though

So far i've yet to have an issue, and I don't always have a ton of headspace. I'm sure it'll happen at some point though. I've got my IPAs going with a little pressure now though, which will also suppress foaming.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Simet(h)icone in all its forms (doesn't have to be Fermcap) is also useful insurance against any upset that might be caused by getting boiling wort all over the kitchen.

My homebrew "career" almost ended after brew 1...

 

[R.A.I.D]

How long do you wait for the hops and the kettle trub to settle out before transferring to the fermentation tank?
The hops seem to settle within 10 minutes while the proteins take a lot more time. (Using protafloc)

Normally I just wait 10 min and then transfering everything except the lower 0.5 gal, which hopefully leaves all the hops and some of the proteins.

 

[R.A.I.D]

Any you noticed a drop in brew house efficiency after switching to spelt malt?
My dropped consistently 10 percentage point over the last two brews.

 

[Shenanigans]

It can also help the foam in your glass

Help reduce or increase it?

Never had problems myself BTW.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Help reduce or increase it?

Never had problems myself BTW.

Increase it.

Foam retention proteins can only been used once, so the less foam produced in the production of the beer, the more proteins available for head retention in the finished product.

 

[TheMadKing]

Any you noticed a drop in brew house efficiency after switching to spelt malt?
My dropped consistently 10 percentage point over the last two brews.

Couple possibilities, you need to reduce your crush size for the spelt to about.030.

Spelt (wheat in general) also has a DI pH value of about 6.1 so you need to acidify your mash more when using wheat then you ordinarily would. Mash Made Easy predicts this accurately

Wheat also gelatinizes at a higher temp than barley so you can mitigate that to some extent by doing a long slow sparge (45-60 mins) with 170F acidified sparge water

So the drop in efficiency is probably a combination of all those things working against you

I brewed with 20% spelt this past weekend and hit 1.080 at 73% brewhouse efficiency doing all those things, which was actually higher than my predicted 68% for an OG that high.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

What did your hotside schedule look like?

For this batch with cosmic punch, I went with:

Mash Hops: 3oz cascade
Boil Hops: 0.5oz Columbus at 15, 10, and 5 min and 0.5oz cascade at 5min (2oz total in boil)
HopSteep/Whirlpool: 155 degree temps; 1oz Columbus & 1oz Cascade at 45minutes, 1oz Columbus & 1oz Cascade at 30 minutes.(4oz total for hop steep).

I honestly wasn't sure how much hops to mash with so this seemed like a "middle of the road" amount. Put them in 20minutes into the mash (90minute mash total).

The hydrometer sample after FG had a nice earth and little dankness to it that I like along with surprisingly more citrus/tropical than I was expecting with the citrus/tropical hitting the palate first followed by the depth of the earthy type character. Ive used this hop combo hot side before but on a different schedule with different yeast before and it wasn't this tropical with these hops. Got the idea for the hop combo from one of @Dgallo brews and I think its a really nice combo as a "base" which allows you to DH however you want depending on the profile you are going for. This hot side hop combo also seemed to be perfect for cosmic punch based on what Ive read for "thiol driving".

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Any you noticed a drop in brew house efficiency after switching to spelt malt?
My dropped consistently 10 percentage point over the last two brews.

wow 10 points is a lot. I have not experienced this type of drop myself but considering spelt malt is huskless (at least what I have - bestmaltz) and in the wheat family, I bring rice hulls to the party to help out AND I take my time with the "manual" poor man's fly sparging i.e. pouring spare water 1 qt at a time to keep about 1inch liquid above the grain bed. With about ~18% spelt comprising my grain bill Im averaging about 78% mash/lauter efficiency overall.

EDIT: I also have my grain mill set to .030" to ensure a good grain crush for wheat and/or spelt.

 

[Dgallo]

wow 10 points is a lot. I have not experienced this type of drop myself but considering spelt malt is huskless (at least what I have - bestmaltz) and in the wheat family, I bring rice hulls to the party to help out AND I take my time with the "manual" poor man's fly sparging i.e. pouring spare water 1 qt at a time to keep about 1inch liquid above the grain bed. With about ~18% spelt comprising my grain bill Im averaging about 78% mash/lauter efficiency overall.

It may not be a true drop in efficiency. Your program may not have the correct yield potential set for spelt grain. Should be around 35ppg Could even be less. Oats are a 32ppg, I believe.

 

[Fergal]

Anyone here tried to dip hop their beers either in addition to or in replacement of the whirlpool?
Had a local WCIPA that was dip hopped and it was exceptional. Ekuanot incognito & mosaic cryo.
Might give it a go in an all strata hazy this weekend..

 

[Fergal]

Couple of links with no affiliation:

Local to me supplier of Nectaron: Nectaron Hop Pellets T-90 (Formerly Hort 4337) - Hoppy Days Brewing Supplies

Local to my homeland supplier of incognito & spectrum in homebrew sizes: Advanced Hop Products

Looks like Get Er Brewed are an affiliated distributer of the J Haas stuff too going by their youtube video.

 

[Shenanigans]

Increase it.

Foam retention proteins can only been used once, so the less foam produced in the production of the beer, the more proteins available for head retention in the finished product.

OK, thanks for the details.
I learn something new here almost every day

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Looks like Get Er Brewed are an affiliated distributer of the J Haas stuff too going by their youtube video.

The Malt Miller in the UK (no affiliation other than as customer) seem to lead the way on retail versions of these kinds of thing - they had Incognito at the last in-person Brewcon nearly 2 years ago. And eg they have stuff like Brewtan, and Nectaron (except currently out of stock, presumably will have some once the new harvest arrives). They are typically a bit more expensive than GEB but eg have HBC472 in Incognito which GEB don't, and their pack sizes on Spectrum are a more wallet-friendly 15ml not 50ml.

 

[Dwaynehaze]

Can confirm this second batch of cosmic punch laughed at my fermcap and blew out on day 2 a bit

 

[ihavenonickname]

Curious about what fermentor y’all use for these beers? And what would be a worthy purchase for these beers.

I’ve had good success fermenting in 10g kegs but I’m looking to upgrade as a gift to myself. Im thinking about the grainfather conical - I really like that it’s jacketed and also has very few parts for easy cleaning and simplicity. Whats Holding me back is it’s not rated for pressure. I’ve really relied on a few PSI to ensure I have a good deal, closed cold crash and closed transfers, previously I had an anvil bucket fermenter and had a bunch of trouble trying to pressure transfer and prevent suckback through the leaky lid (even with a co2 bruloon trick). So can I make greatcersions Of these beers without a pressure rated FV?

The Fermonster, like dgallo uses would be a nice side step for me but can’t dump yeast trub and I question it’s durability. A spike conical seems nice but that extra hassle of cleaning all those parts or dealing with a CIP pump seems like a hassle.

 

[Dgallo]

Increase it.

Foam retention proteins can only been used once, so the less foam produced in the production of the beer, the more proteins available for head retention in the finished product.

Do you have literature to support this? I’ve done quite a bit of research on head retention over the years and cant say I’ve ever heard that.

 

[Dgallo]

The Fermonster, like dgallo uses would be a nice side step for me but can’t dump yeast trub and I question it’s durability. A spike conical seems nice but that extra hassle of cleaning all those parts or dealing with a CIP pump seems like a hassle.

You can always get a second fermonster, purge it and then close transfer to it. You’ll get it off the trub after the softcrash and then dryhop in that one. - just a thought if you go that route.

on durability, I wouldn’t be concerned. I’ve had 2 of my fermonsters for probably 3.5-4 years with out any issue. Use not abrasive sponge and keep metal out of it. Other than that, don’t be a barbarian and slam it around lol

 

[ThatVideoKid]

Do you have literature to support this? I’ve done quite a bit of research on head retention over the years and cant say I’ve ever heard that.

I’ll try to find the source on it.

The gist though is that once the bubble forms, the LTP1 changes it’s structure and doesn’t go back into solution the same way as before. It’s often deposited on the sides of the fermenter, and in the glass as lacing.

 

[ThatVideoKid]

It may be less that they can only be used once, and more that more will make it to the finished product if you aren’t losing it to the walls of the FV and BK.