New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[midegrou]

In theory that does look correct. 66 is a great temp for LAIII in my book. Brewer I know that’s won a bunch of GABF medals with it since 1995 does just that. Never even raises it above 66. I don’t really like fermenting these English ale strains warm. I know you get the additional fruity esters but I think they tend to trample the hops quite a bit. Plus there’s the theory that a warmer more rapid/intense ferment might actually blow off even more hop aromatics.

I don’t do many IPLs or really hoppy lagers but it always amazes me how strong the hops can come through fermentation with cold lager ferments. Even with no additions past 10 minutes left the hops are still very noticeable. You can ferment LAIII at 54 if you pitch enough yeast. I ferment Conan at 56 for a “Kolsch” I make and it finishes in 4 days. Got a pale ale going at 60 with it now just to see.

In regards to all the hops in the serving keg. There’s a chance that when you transfer to the hopped keg you won’t be able to leave it for just 2 days at room temp. The likelihood of you getting some refermentation is definitely there. I’d do a forced diacetyl test before cooling if you’re dry hopping at room temp. They’re super easy to do and a great way to make sure you’re not serving people bitter bombs. If you’re dry hopping at say 60 or below, the likelihood of refermentation is quite a bit less in my experience.

I’ve had the dip tube screen work and I’ve had it clog. Always with loose hops in the keg.

How are you purging the keg? The issue with keg hopping is the amount of Co2 you have to waste to purge the keg with the hops in it. Especially at the Homebrew level where Co2 ain’t cheap.

I’ve been happy with the results when using fermentation to purge the keg. That way you’re not wasting a ton of Co2. It only takes a few days of active fermentation to purge so it’s not like you need to leave it hooked up with whole time. Hook it up on day one throw the hops in and pull on day 4 and store it somewhere cold. When fermentation is done and beer has been soft crashed transfer to the keg with the hops already in it.

I’d transfer again personally. But that’s up to you. It’s not hard to purge a keg of all o2 when done correctly. Just don’t forget to purge the lines. If you do it correctly I think you’ll end up with a cleaner beer in the long run.

Sounds like a lot of work but making great beer is a lot of work and attention to detail.

Using an active fermentation to "pre-purge" a DH keg is a great idea! Thanks a ton!

Any concerns with just adding the dry hops prior to that ferm-purge process, to prevent any need to open the keg prior to closed transfer? I won't have a way of keeping it chilled, unfortunately. I use a beverage chiller for fermentation but can only fit one keg in there at a time.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Using an active fermentation to "pre-purge" a DH keg is a great idea! Thanks a ton!

Any concerns with just adding the dry hops prior to that ferm-purge process, to prevent any need to open the keg prior to closed transfer? I won't have a way of keeping it chilled, unfortunately. I use a beverage chiller for fermentation but can only fit one keg in there at a time.

I’ve played around with a ton of different techniques on my system, and do this all the time. I open up my dry hop keg, put my entire DryHop dosage in the bottom of it, and then seal it up. I’m use a floating dip tube in this keg and have been using the CO2 from the fermentation to purge it completely. I usually give it 2 to 3 cycles of about 20 psi from my tank as soon as I close it so the hops aren’t sitting out exposed to a ton of oxygen before the fermentation CO2 starts coming in. You can then soft crash your fermenter, transfer into your DryHop keg without ever opening the lid, DryHop for four days or so at 60, and then jump it into a liquid purged keg for conditioning and serving. I also like to crash it down to serving temp in the dry hop keg, to drop all the hops to the bottom, and then transfer from the top with the floating dip tube. Definitely takes a little bit more effort but it’s very worth it when done properly.

 

[Dgallo]

I’ve played around with a ton of different techniques on my system, and do this all the time. I open up my dry hop keg, put my entire DryHop dosage in the bottom of it, and then seal it up. I’m use a floating dip tube in this keg and have been using the CO2 from the fermentation to purge it completely. I usually give it 2 to 3 cycles of about 20 psi from my tank as soon as I close it so the hops aren’t sitting out exposed to a ton of oxygen before the fermentation CO2 starts coming in. You can then soft crash your fermenter, transfer into your DryHop keg without ever opening the lid, DryHop for four days or so at 60, and then jump it into a liquid purged keg for conditioning and serving. I also like to crash it down to serving temp in the dry hop keg, to drop all the hops to the bottom, and then transfer from the top with the floating dip tube. Definitely takes a little bit more effort but it’s very worth it when done properly.

Ever think of waiting to load the keg until fermentation already started so that you’re not wasting any of your purchased co2

 

[HopsAreGood]

Ever think of waiting to load the keg until fermentation already started so that you’re not wasting any of your purchased co2

I have, and in a lot of situations I’m sure that makes sense. For me usually when I brew I’m pitching my yeast around seven or 8 PM. It’s not uncommon for me to have visible and active fermentation the next morning when I come down to look at it. I just like to get everything set and done. While I may technically be wasting some of the CO2 in my tank, it doesn’t bother me too much. I get a little peace of mind knowing that it’s all set and I’m done.

 

[BeerFst]

on BeerCo, I checked and it was $22 to ship one pound to Long Island, NY and wen up to $25 for two pounds for "international direct". Not sure how long that it is. Definitely cheaper than expected, though if i was getting some stuff i'd otherwise have a hard time getting here i would probably try it

 

[Steven Barrett]

Brewed something similar to this and transferred the spunding beer to a CO2 purged dry hop keg to naturally carbonate (would have used the fermentation CO2 to purge if I had the foresight). Shout out to @Rainy @Dgallo and @Braufessor, and the rest of you for all the tips, especially on minimizing oxygen pickup on these heavily hopped beers.

 

[midegrou]

I’ve played around with a ton of different techniques on my system, and do this all the time. I open up my dry hop keg, put my entire DryHop dosage in the bottom of it, and then seal it up. I’m use a floating dip tube in this keg and have been using the CO2 from the fermentation to purge it completely. I usually give it 2 to 3 cycles of about 20 psi from my tank as soon as I close it so the hops aren’t sitting out exposed to a ton of oxygen before the fermentation CO2 starts coming in. You can then soft crash your fermenter, transfer into your DryHop keg without ever opening the lid, DryHop for four days or so at 60, and then jump it into a liquid purged keg for conditioning and serving. I also like to crash it down to serving temp in the dry hop keg, to drop all the hops to the bottom, and then transfer from the top with the floating dip tube. Definitely takes a little bit more effort but it’s very worth it when done properly.

Ever have a particularly active/aggressive fermentation spill some krausen (might be using the wrong terminology here) into the dry hop keg? If not, would that be a concern were it to happen?

 

[HopsAreGood]

Ever have a particularly active/aggressive fermentation spill some krausen (might be using the wrong terminology here) into the dry hop keg? If not, would that be a concern were it to happen?

I ferment in a 7 gallon vessel and can’t say I’ve ever once had that happen. It’s come close a few times, especially with 1318, but it’s never actually happened. I do have a built-in blowoff tube in my system so if I ever needed to use it, it would be as simple as moving a few tubes around. Would probably take me about 30 seconds.

If it did happen I suppose it would be an issue as the krausen/liquid would wet some of the hops, but It would probably be negligible as long as it was only a little bit.

 

[isomerization]

Ever have a particularly active/aggressive fermentation spill some krausen (might be using the wrong terminology here) into the dry hop keg? If not, would that be a concern were it to happen?

You don’t need to keep it connected the entire time, just wait a few days.

 

[HopsAreGood]

You don’t need to keep it connected the entire time, just wait a few days.

I agree that you don’t need to, however for these super hoppy beers I’ll go to whatever length possible to minimize oxygen pick up. There was a post on here a while ago by a member, if I recall correctly, that stated that the entire amount of CO2 created during a typical fermentation would be needed to fully Purge a keg of oxygen. He went through all of the advanced mathematical equations that I can only trust are correct because I have no idea, but after reading that thread I’ve always tried to use all of the fermentation CO2 to fully purge my kegs. I’ll see if I can find the post and share it. I believe it was by @doug293cz
Maybe he can jump in if he’s still around.

 

[midegrou]

I agree that you don’t need to, however for these super hoppy beers I’ll go to whatever length possible to minimize oxygen pick up. There was a post on here a while ago by a member, if I recall correctly, that stated that the entire amount of CO2 created during a typical fermentation would be needed to fully Purge a keg of oxygen. He went through all of the advanced mathematical equations that I can only trust are correct because I have no idea, but after reading that thread I’ve always tried to use all of the fermentation CO2 to fully purge my kegs. I’ll see if I can find the post and share it. I believe it was by @doug293cz
Maybe he can jump in if he’s still around.

I think I'm willing to take the gamble of a bit of goop landing in the dry hop keg. Worst case is that it serves as the "starter" for secondary ferm?

I guess another concern is whether or not it would degrade the dry hops in some way.

 

[Dgallo]

I guess another concern is whether or not it would degrade the dry hops in some way.

Any break down of the hops will be staying in your keg and you’ll be racking the beer on top of it making its way in the beer. I personally can’t see how degradation could occur

 

[midegrou]

Any break down of the hops will be staying in your keg and you’ll be racking the beer on top of it making its way in the beer. I personally can’t see how degradation could occur

Ok, I'm in. Will report back, friends.

 

[HopsAreGood]

Any break down of the hops will be staying in your keg and you’ll be racking the beer on top of it making its way in the beer. I personally can’t see how degradation could occur

The only possibility I could see would be if you got a bunch of Krausen/liquid In there fairly early on, and then a bunch of the CO2 from the remaining fermentation could scrub some of the aromatics out. Similar to why the majority of us stopped dry hopping during fermentation. We’re trying to preserve all of those aromatics. But this would be highly unlikely.

 

[isomerization]

I agree that you don’t need to, however for these super hoppy beers I’ll go to whatever length possible to minimize oxygen pick up. There was a post on here a while ago by a member, if I recall correctly, that stated that the entire amount of CO2 created during a typical fermentation would be needed to fully Purge a keg of oxygen. He went through all of the advanced mathematical equations that I can only trust are correct because I have no idea, but after reading that thread I’ve always tried to use all of the fermentation CO2 to fully purge my kegs. I’ll see if I can find the post and share it. I believe it was by @doug293cz
Maybe he can jump in if he’s still around.

I was thinking of purging a liquid filled keg, which doesn’t really apply here. I agree with what others are saying, low chance of something bad occurring.

 

[stickyfinger]

If u aren't putting hops into the receiving keg you can just rinse it out with star san. Push it in and purge through the cut off gas in dip tube. If you have hops in the receiving keg I guess you live with the yeast

 

[couchsending]

I don’t use a yeast that forms that much krausen. If I did I would worry about it potentially clogging a poppet and creating some sort of over-pressurized situation. In the past as a precaution I’ve used the “Krausen Catcher” from NorCal.

https://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/store/Krausen-Catcher-2-Nipples-Grommet.html
Run blow off into the jar then run a line to the keg off of that. No worry about krausen clogging a popper and exploding everywhere.

 

[Rainy]

New post from Scott Janish discussing in detail the "Survivables" concept that Yakima Chief talks about in their presentations: Survivables: Unpacking Hot-Side Hop Flavor - Scott Janish

Helps a lot in knowing which hops are more useful in whirlpool and mid ferm dry hop vs which hops should be used in the post ferm dry hop.

This is a bit independent from the discussions of to what extend whirlpool hops are useful, wherein I start to lean more towards moving more hops to the dry hop. But even then it's still nice to know which hops will give the most effect in the whirlpool.

 

[Steven Barrett]

New post from Scott Janish discussing in detail the "Survivables" concept that Yakima Chief talks about in their presentations: Survivables: Unpacking Hot-Side Hop Flavor - Scott Janish

Helps a lot in knowing which hops are more useful in whirlpool and mid ferm dry hop vs which hops should be used in the post ferm dry hop.

This is a bit independent from the discussions of to what extend whirlpool hops are useful, wherein I start to lean more towards moving more hops to the dry hop. But even then it's still nice to know which hops will give the most effect in the whirlpool.

Great article. Well worth the read.

Fascinatingly complex subject. Couple that with studies that show that concentration can also effect quality of aroma (herbal/tea overpowering citrus at very high concentrations).

Impact of static dry-hopping rate on the sensory and analytical profiles of beer

 

[Genuine]

My last NEIPA (Been carbing since last week, I'll pull a pint this thursday) was the first time I used a hop spider during the whirlpool and I couldn't believe how much wort I was able to transfer to my fermenter without all the hop material with it. 8oz in the whirlpool and 7 oz in the dry hop. Plus, I had no worries about getting my CFC clogged when chilling NEIPA's. It's been the best yield into keg so far. I was able to get a full 5 gallons and not leaving anything but the dry hops that were floating on top (and yeast on the bottom of course). I don't know why I didn't get a hop spider sooner.

 

[HopsAreGood]

New post from Scott Janish discussing in detail the "Survivables" concept that Yakima Chief talks about in their presentations: Survivables: Unpacking Hot-Side Hop Flavor - Scott Janish

Helps a lot in knowing which hops are more useful in whirlpool and mid ferm dry hop vs which hops should be used in the post ferm dry hop.

This is a bit independent from the discussions of to what extend whirlpool hops are useful, wherein I start to lean more towards moving more hops to the dry hop. But even then it's still nice to know which hops will give the most effect in the whirlpool.

Great read. Question...am I the only one that is seeing “CIT” on the survivables graph where he’s saying it’s columbus? I-7, mosaic, bravo, then it looks like Citra to me, but he’s saying Columbus.

 

[isomerization]

Great article. Well worth the read.

Fascinatingly complex subject. Couple that with studies that show that concentration can also effect quality of aroma (herbal/tea overpowering citrus at very high concentrations).

Impact of static dry-hopping rate on the sensory and analytical profiles of beer

I feel like a broken record on this subject, but note that the study you linked only used Cascade. As the very cool Yakima Chief study (summarized excellently by Janish) showed, there is quite a wide range in hop oil profiles across different hop cultivars!

 

[secretlevel]

My Imperial A24 dry hop has been over-attenuating lately. On the most recent batch I got:
OG: 1.071
FG: 1.010
85% attenuation
154F mash temp
A24 0.5L starter for 4 gallons, pitched at 68, fermented at 72-73F.

I'm planning on mashing at 160F so I can have a bit of body and end up at 1.020 FG next time, does anyone else do this? What's the highest FG that you guys have gotten?

I'm also getting a fresh pack of A24 to see if that makes a difference.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

My Imperial A24 dry hop has been over-attenuating lately. On the most recent batch I got:
OG: 1.071
FG: 1.010
85% attenuation
154F mash temp
A24 0.5L starter for 4 gallons, pitched at 68, fermented at 72-73F.

I'm planning on mashing at 160F so I can have a bit of body and end up at 1.020 FG next time, does anyone else do this? What's the highest FG that you guys have gotten?

I'm also getting a fresh pack of A24 to see if that makes a difference.

Interesting, when I was mashing at 152 with A24 as the yeast I was routinely finishing at 1.011-1.012. I upped the mash to 154 ever since and with an OG of 1.069-1.072 I always have been hitting 1.014 as the FG. Not sure whats the cause of this for you though. Are you confident of your mash temps hitting 154 and not a bit lower?

 

[Fergal]

My Imperial A24 dry hop has been over-attenuating lately. On the most recent batch I got:
OG: 1.071
FG: 1.010
85% attenuation
154F mash temp
A24 0.5L starter for 4 gallons, pitched at 68, fermented at 72-73F.

I'm planning on mashing at 160F so I can have a bit of body and end up at 1.020 FG next time, does anyone else do this? What's the highest FG that you guys have gotten?

I'm also getting a fresh pack of A24 to see if that makes a difference.

Hop Creep?

 

[Dgallo]

My Imperial A24 dry hop has been over-attenuating lately. On the most recent batch I got:
OG: 1.071
FG: 1.010
85% attenuation
154F mash temp
A24 0.5L starter for 4 gallons, pitched at 68, fermented at 72-73F.

I'm planning on mashing at 160F so I can have a bit of body and end up at 1.020 FG next time, does anyone else do this? What's the highest FG that you guys have gotten?

I'm also getting a fresh pack of A24 to see if that makes a difference.

i would say you’re experiencing hop creep. For reverence, I’ve used this A24 for easily 20+ batches and the max I’ve ever gotten was 79% at 150*f mash temp. At 154 I’m usually at 74 and haven’t been higher than 76%.

hop creep is the best answer. If it’s not hop creep, it could be an infection of a yeast that has the STA1 gene, wild or from a previous batch(could be in the fv or starter equipment) or a bacteria infection but you typically would’ve able to pick that out in the flavor. or it could be as easy as your thermometer failing. My thermometer actually just failed 2 days ago. I was using my wort chiller and kept checking the temp of the wort and it it wouldn’t fall below 93. After an hour I knew something was up so I check the prob in a Cup of ice water and it was reading 77. Just something to check

 

[Dgallo]

New post from Scott Janish discussing in detail the "Survivables" concept that Yakima Chief talks about in their presentations: Survivables: Unpacking Hot-Side Hop Flavor - Scott Janish

Helps a lot in knowing which hops are more useful in whirlpool and mid ferm dry hop vs which hops should be used in the post ferm dry hop.

This is a bit independent from the discussions of to what extend whirlpool hops are useful, wherein I start to lean more towards moving more hops to the dry hop. But even then it's still nice to know which hops will give the most effect in the whirlpool.

I don’t disagree with this info but take some of the big name breweries with some of the OG Alchemist, Lawson’s, and Russian River and now more relevant, Tree house (whom some consider the best) they are huge about using hotside hops. I read a quote from Kimmich recently where he said that heady topper is dryhopped with the equivalent of less than 4.5oz for a 5 gallon batch. I think hoping hotside vs. cold side has a lot to do with process and water chem verse blanket statesments of which is better, hit a cold hopping

 

[stickyfinger]

I was doing an extreme experiment with Dryhop trying for a very low abv neipa. Mashed at 170! 1.058 og. Fermented out and hit 1.035 for 2.9% abv! Chilled to 34F for two days. Warmed up to 70 to dry hop. Added dry hops and yeast kicked into overdrive due to massive hop creep. It actually started swirling currents of yeast and CO2 again like a fresh wort! Dropped it down to 1.010-1.011. I bet you have hop creep.

My Imperial A24 dry hop has been over-attenuating lately. On the most recent batch I got:
OG: 1.071
FG: 1.010
85% attenuation
154F mash temp
A24 0.5L starter for 4 gallons, pitched at 68, fermented at 72-73F.

I'm planning on mashing at 160F so I can have a bit of body and end up at 1.020 FG next time, does anyone else do this? What's the highest FG that you guys have gotten?

I'm also getting a fresh pack of A24 to see if that makes a difference.

 

[Rainy]

I don’t disagree with this info but take some of the big name breweries with some of the OG Alchemist, Lawson’s, and Russian River and now more relevant, Tree house (whom some consider the best) they are huge about using hotside hops. I read a quote from Kimmich recently where he said that heady topper is dryhopped with the equivalent of less than 4.5oz for a 5 gallon batch. I think hoping hotside vs. cold side has a lot to do with process and water chem verse blanket statesments of which is better, hit a cold hopping

I totally agree that it's not as clear cut as "more hops to the cold side" and that it's also depending on personal taste and the rest of your process.

Personally, I often find myself fighting with polyphenol astringency when adding too much hops in total to the beer. So I sort of have a maximum of hops I can put in total in the beer and then the question is how to divide those between whirlpool, mid ferm dry hop (which I stopped doing) and cold ferm dry hop.
I like more the raw hoppiness ("survivables" + less soluble non polar compounds ?) vs the generic fruitiness (coming from the "survivables" ?) of a hop addition, so moving the balance to more dry hop (and in general removing plant matter by using partly cryo) made sense to me.
To put things in perspective, I put around 1 pound per barrel or 4g/l in the whirlpool which is what a lot of professional brewers are doing. (1-2 pound per barrel in the whirlpool), My dryhop addition is then 2-3 times the amount from the whirlpool.

But I definitely agree that in the end it's all about the synergy of all your additions.

If you look at what's happening to the compounds, they indeed bring different things to the table
Whirlpool: non-polar compounds (e.g. myrcene) driven off + some hop compounds (e.g. geraniol) get biotransformed
=> survivables + biotransformation products from survivables (+polyphenols) stay in the beer
post ferm dry hop: mainly dissolving the original hop compounds into a mixture of water and alcohol
=> survivables + some of the non-soluble compounds (+polyphenols) stay in the beer

And indeed which compounds get extracted and stay in the final beer depends greatly on the specifics of both processes (whirlpool temp/time, dry hop temp/time, dry hop method (agitation vs no agitation), hop product (T90 vs cryo), soft crashing, conditioning time/temp) and what happened before the whirlpool (general recipe: protein content, ABV, yeast choice)

At least, that is how I understand it.

I read in an earlier post about your "all hops in dry hop" and "all hops in whirlpool" beers that you made to get a better idea of what both addition bring to the beer.
Did you see anything confirming the assumption that whirlpool hops bring a more generic fruitiness to the beer which is great as a base for the more raw hop character of the post ferm dry hop to interact with?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

My Imperial A24 dry hop has been over-attenuating lately. ....

I'm also getting a fresh pack of A24 to see if that makes a difference.

So you've been repitching A24? Given it's a blend of a Conan and A20 Citrus, which is their version of Sacc Trois, aren't you just seeing the blend skew with repitching? Imperial list the attenuation of A20 as 74-78%, but all the Sacc Trois are STA1+ and White Labs list the attenuation of WLP644 as 85-85%, so I suspect that's all you're seeing.