New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[HopsAreGood]

In my opinion lactose doesn’t really provide any sweetness, it just gives a bit of a smoothness or creaminess to the beer.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

hmmm, not sure if lactose dissolves well in cold liquid, but might have to try a pseudo experiment to find out what lactose brings to the table. Thinking of three small tasters: 1) lactose in water (might be gross lol), 2) lactose in a finished beer I have in keg, 3) same finished beer but without lactose. So would scale down normal lactose addition for a 5g finished batch to add it to two small glasses. Mix em and try em. I have some lactose so might be worth a try and even though might not be the same as using lactose on hot side, it should give me some idea of what it brings to a beer.

 

[tld6008]

hmmm, not sure if lactose dissolves well in cold liquid, but might have to try a pseudo experiment to find out what lactose brings to the table. Thinking of three small tasters: 1) lactose in water (might be gross lol), 2) lactose in a finished beer I have in keg, 3) same finished beer but without lactose. So would scale down normal lactose addition for a 5g finished batch to add it to two small glasses. Mix em and try em. I have some lactose so might be worth a try and even though might not be the same as using lactose on hot side, it should give me some idea of what it brings to a beer.

IMO lactose definitely adds sweetness to beer, put 1 lb in a 5 gal batch and see what happens

 

[HopsAreGood]

I have done it and even gone higher. For me I really don’t get sweet, but I certainly can see how others might. It just adds a very noticeable difference to the mouthfeel and texture.

 

[isomerization]

IMO lactose definitely adds sweetness to beer, put 1 lb in a 5 gal batch and see what happens

It’s not like it’s got zero sweetness, but I’d bet your mind is playing tricks on you.

 

[RCope]

I've used lactose in a few batches. Mostly milk stouts, of course. The three NEIPA's that I've added 1lb of lactose finished at 1.012(2), and 1.013. The stouts around 1.021 to 1.016. So the IPA's just seem to have a softer mouthfeel, the stouts seem to have some sweetness. Probably the difference in FG is the more important variable. I'm not afraid of adding lactose to a NEIPA, but honestly, all of those that I have tried were recipes from others .

The ones that I have designed don't have lactose and I don't miss it in any way..

 

[Rainy]

Did anyone catch the Instagram Live between JC from Trillium and Sam from Other Half today? I missed it but apparently they were taking about the recipe formulations of the beers they brewed for each other recently.

Just watched it, but there was not too much brewer information. More about how they evolved as breweries and a bit about shelf stability of NEIPAs
Great though to see again the confirmation that for hoppy beers temperature is a lot more important than oxygen.
They mention near the end of the instagram webcast that a well packed beer with low TPO sitting at room temperature for two weeks, will oxidise way faster than a medium well packaged beer sitting cold the whole time.

Saw something similar mentioned a while ago on a mbaa workshop about making hoppy beers and there's even a a scientific paper about it.
I wrote about this a while ago on beeradvocate, so just copy pasting what I wrote there:

They discuss it shortly in this podcast: Juicy Dry Hopping
And I think the research might be this one: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/03610470.2019.1603002
It's also discussed in the slides of Daniel Sharp for the juicy dry hopping workshop at the master brewers conference 2019.

Quoting the abstract of the paper talking about this issue:

"It is generally recognized within the brewing industry that hop aroma and flavor in beer changes as beer ages post-packaging. Lager beer staling has been studied extensively, while dry-hopped beer has received limited attention. This study evaluated the impact of dissolved oxygen on the sensory and hop volatile profiles of dry-hopped beer during storage. Commercially-brewed dry-hopped beer was dosed with oxygen in a controlled fashion to create beers with a range of dissolved oxygen concentrations from approximately 40 to 250 μg/L 40 to 250 µg/L and then stored under chilled (3 °C) or accelerated (30 °C) storage conditions. ... Sensory results identified storage temperature, used as a proxy for aging duration, as having the greatest effect on aroma during storage. Dissolved oxygen concentration was observed to have a lesser, but significant, impact at both high and low storage temperatures after only two weeks of aging. Higher temperature and dissolved oxygen concentrations resulted in decreased tropical, citrus, and hoppy characteristics and the expression of malty, dried fruit, and cardboard aromas. Hop derived monoterpenes were not significantly affected by treatment temperature or dissolved oxygen, suggesting stale character expression from alternate sources such as lipid oxidation or Strecker aldehydes formation."

Further on in the paper: "Sensory results clearly indicated that accelerated storage conditions (i.e., temperature at 30 °C versus 3 °C) had a greater effect than DO (dissolved oxygen) levels on hoppy aromatic characteristics during storage. All high temperature stored samples exhibited higher perceived sweetness than the low temperature stored samples. "

 

[Dgallo]

Just watched it, but there was not too much brewer information. More about how they evolved as breweries and a bit about shelf stability of NEIPAs
Great though to see again the confirmation that for hoppy beers temperature is a lot more important than oxygen.
They mention near the end of the instagram webcast that a well packed beer with low TPO sitting at room temperature for two weeks, will oxidise way faster than a medium well packaged beer sitting cold the whole time.

Saw something similar mentioned a while ago on a mbaa workshop about making hoppy beers and there's even a a scientific paper about it.
I wrote about this a while ago on beeradvocate, so just copy pasting what I wrote there:

Well there is a correlation between the two, so you really can't say temperature is more important than oxygen. Oxidation occurs faster at warmer temps but the limiting factor is how much oxygen is present and available to oxidize compounds.

take the two beers you mentioned and put them through the same testing. Take the lowest dissolved oxygen beer at canning and then take a mediocre processed canned beer and see which one is impacted worse by oxidation in both the warm and cold environment. Would bet my paycheck that the better packaged beer will be effected far less by o2 than the other beer in both environments

 

[Noob_Brewer]

"Dissolved oxygen concentration was observed to have a lesser, but significant, impact at both high and low storage temperatures after only two weeks of aging. Higher temperature and dissolved oxygen concentrations resulted in decreased tropical, citrus, and hoppy characteristics and the expression of malty, dried fruit, and cardboard aromas."

Thanks for this paper @Rainy ! I think the paper was actually quite transparent in stating that both temp and oxygen matter. Whether temp matters more than oxygen though doesn't really matter to me as much at this time though. Why? Because I keg and the keezer maintains nice cool temps. But oxygen? there are many places along my processes where I could screwup and oxygen enters the beer. I am lucky thus far though that while my kegs have lasted 3-4 weeks on average, none have had these oxidation/aging descriptors after two weeks that I or other friends could detect.

From another personal perspective, it would have been nice to see the effect of ambient room temps (68-70ish) on aging rather than the 86degrees they used as a high temp to accelerate aging. For me this would have been helpful because I always ask the question to myself of how fast would a nice canned commercial beer degrade in hoppy character if I didn't put it in the fridge (because its full) and just put it in my cabinet.

 

[emr25]

Latest NE IPA brewed last night. The Galaxy / Strata / Idaho 7 combination is a new one for me, looking forward to tasting it in a few weeks.

OG - 1.067
FG - 1.016
ABV - 6.7%
~35 IBU

This one turned out really good, heavy on Idaho 7 in the whirlpool and heavy on Galaxy in the dry hop!

 

[Noob_Brewer]

This one turned out really good, heavy on Idaho 7 in the whirlpool and heavy on Galaxy in the dry hop!
View attachment 685133

Pic looks great! Like the light color. What was the grain bill like? I too love I7 but haven’t actually used with galaxy yet. What’d ya use for boil/bittering?

 

[emr25]

Pic looks great! Like the light color. What was the grain bill like? I too love I7 but haven’t actually used with galaxy yet. What’d ya use for boil/bittering?

OG - 1.067
FG - 1.016
ABV - 6.7%
~35 IBU

Malts
(50%) Weyermann Pilsner
(25%) Weyermann Pale Ale
(10%) Oat Malt
(8.75%) White Wheat
(2.5%) Golden Naked Oats
(2.5%) Acidulated
(1.25%) Gambrinus Honey

1 lbs Lactose at Flameout (7.7 Gallons Volume)

Hops
30 Min - 2mL Hop Extract
5 Min - 0.5oz Galaxy / 0.5oz Strata / 1.0oz Idaho 7
160* WP - 1.5oz Galaxy / 1.5oz Strata / 3.0oz Idaho 7
DH (Keg) - 4.0oz Galaxy / 1.0oz Strata / 1.0oz Idaho 7

Yeast
London Ale III (WY1318) Fermented at 66*F

 

[Rainy]

Well there is a correlation between the two, so you really can't say temperature is more important than oxygen. Oxidation occurs faster at warmer temps but the limiting factor is how much oxygen is present and available to oxidize compounds.

take the two beers you mentioned and put them through the same testing. Take the lowest dissolved oxygen beer at canning and then take a mediocre processed canned beer and see which one is impacted worse by oxidation in both the warm and cold environment. Would bet my paycheck that the better packaged beer will be effected far less by O2 than the other beer in both environments

I think I did not express myself properly.

Maybe it is good to keep in mind that the research I referenced is aimed at professional brewers that look at this from a different perspective. They want to see how long the flavour stays stable in a well packaged beer. (DO 20-30ppb)
And for them the most important conclusion from these studies is that maintaining cold temperatures (3C) between packaging and consumption is really important.

It is also very clear that keeping DO low for all beers and definitely these kind of beers is very important.
In all the brewers's podcasts and webinars I've been listening to/watching lately, "keep DO low" is always the answer when there's a question about how to maintain hop character in hoppy beers.

The way I understand the Barnette/Shellhammer study (check the podcast talking about the study around 20:00) is that if you would purely look at a modeled equation for "rate of reduction in hoppy character":
(rate of reduction in hoppy character)= A*Temp^b*DO^c (with A, b and c being constants in your model)
,that then b>c, meaning that reducing temperature by an order of magnitude will have a bigger impact than reducing oxygen by an order of magnitude. (in the podcast Daniel Sharp mentions that the Barnette/Shellhammer study shows that DO is only of secondary importance compared to Temperature)

What makes this a bit misleading is that, in practice, it is a lot easier to reduce the temperature by an order of magnitude (30C -> 3C) then reducing the DO (300ppb -> 30ppb) by an order of magnitude, even more so for home brewers.
I also don't know how low we can get our DOs as home brewers. (maybe closer to 300ppb than 30ppb????)

What also makes this study more complicated to interpret is that the tasting panel notices a change in flavour, but analytically they don't really see a big reduction in monoterpene alcohols, and therefore they speculate in the conclusion that it might be more a case of staling compounds (produced by oxidation) masking the hoppy flavour compounds. (Maybe Thiols are affected by oxidation, but who knows?)

I think I also misinterpreted the Daniel Sharp presentation about flavour stability in IPAs, in that it was more about temperature vs time.
And that was also the message in the Trillium/OH instagram webcast. That if you keep these beers cold and DO is low (<80ppb for the Sharp study, but I'm guessing OH is more at <30ppb), that you can keep these beers for at least 2-3 months while maintaining a strong hoppy character, while keeping the same beer with low DO warm for 2 weeks will give you a way quicker drop off in flavour. Keep in mind that this conclusion applies more to a well packaged can from a professional brewery than to our home brews. So it mainly means that if you buy a can of Treehouse/OH/Trillium, you should be fine keeping it in a fridge at 3C for 2 months compared to storing it at 30C and drinking it in 2 weeks. It's more important to keep that beer cold than to drink it as fast as possible.

In the webcast Sam from OH even mentioned that if you keep one of their beers cold for 6 months, that even then you would still have a good hoppy beer. The flavour will have evolved over those months (from more raw character to smoother), but you will still have a hoppy beer that you can enjoy. Of course he recommends to consume within 2 months.

The main conclusion from all of this is thus "keep your well packaged beers cold at all times" rather than "don't worry about DO as long as you keep your temp low".

Also for professional brewers making hoppy beers, keeping DO as low as possible is standard practice and something they have control over, so they are looking for other parameters where they can still improve, meaning how to keep temperature as low as possible between canning and consumption (by ensuring cold chain and educating customers, things brewers have less control over)
For us home brewers keeping temperatures low at all times is easy if you keg. Keeping DO as low as possible is a lot harder, so that's where our main focus should go.

 

[beervoid]

I think I did not express myself properly.

Maybe it is good to keep in mind that the research I referenced is aimed at professional brewers that look at this from a different perspective. They want to see how long the flavour stays stable in a well packaged beer. (DO 20-30ppb)
And for them the most important conclusion from these studies is that maintaining cold temperatures (3C) between packaging and consumption is really important.

It is also very clear that keeping DO low for all beers and definitely these kind of beers is very important.
In all the brewers's podcasts and webinars I've been listening to/watching lately, "keep DO low" is always the answer when there's a question about how to maintain hop character in hoppy beers.

The way I understand the Barnette/Shellhammer study (check the podcast talking about the study around 20:00) is that if you would purely look at a modeled equation for "rate of reduction in hoppy character":
(rate of reduction in hoppy character)= A*Temp^b*DO^c (with A, b and c being constants in your model)
,that then b>c, meaning that reducing temperature by an order of magnitude will have a bigger impact than reducing oxygen by an order of magnitude. (in the podcast Daniel Sharp mentions that the Barnette/Shellhammer study shows that DO is only of secondary importance compared to Temperature)

What makes this a bit misleading is that, in practice, it is a lot easier to reduce the temperature by an order of magnitude (30C -> 3C) then reducing the DO (300ppb -> 30ppb) by an order of magnitude, even more so for home brewers.
I also don't know how low we can get our DOs as home brewers. (maybe closer to 300ppb than 30ppb????)

What also makes this study more complicated to interpret is that the tasting panel notices a change in flavour, but analytically they don't really see a big reduction in monoterpene alcohols, and therefore they speculate in the conclusion that it might be more a case of staling compounds (produced by oxidation) masking the hoppy flavour compounds. (Maybe Thiols are affected by oxidation, but who knows?)

I think I also misinterpreted the Daniel Sharp presentation about flavour stability in IPAs, in that it was more about temperature vs time.
And that was also the message in the Trillium/OH instagram webcast. That if you keep these beers cold and DO is low (<80ppb for the Sharp study, but I'm guessing OH is more at <30ppb), that you can keep these beers for at least 2-3 months while maintaining a strong hoppy character, while keeping the same beer with low DO warm for 2 weeks will give you a way quicker drop off in flavour. Keep in mind that this conclusion applies more to a well packaged can from a professional brewery than to our home brews. So it mainly means that if you buy a can of Treehouse/OH/Trillium, you should be fine keeping it in a fridge at 3C for 2 months compared to storing it at 30C and drinking it in 2 weeks. It's more important to keep that beer cold than to drink it as fast as possible.

In the webcast Sam from OH even mentioned that if you keep one of their beers cold for 6 months, that even then you would still have a good hoppy beer. The flavour will have evolved over those months (from more raw character to smoother), but you will still have a hoppy beer that you can enjoy. Of course he recommends to consume within 2 months.

The main conclusion from all of this is thus "keep your well packaged beers cold at all times" rather than "don't worry about DO as long as you keep your temp low".

Also for professional brewers making hoppy beers, keeping DO as low as possible is standard practice and something they have control over, so they are looking for other parameters where they can still improve, meaning how to keep temperature as low as possible between canning and consumption (by ensuring cold chain and educating customers, things brewers have less control over)
For us home brewers keeping temperatures low at all times is easy if you keg. Keeping DO as low as possible is a lot harder, so that's where our main focus should go.

Right so to sum it all up. Drink the beer fresh and cold
Jk

 

[Rainy]

Right so to sum it all up. Drink the beer fresh and cold
Jk

Yeah, I sometimes get a bit too caught up in trying to understand why things work the way they do rather than focusing on how that knowledge can be used in practice. But I love digging through all the hop research and trying to see the connections.

Small addendum though: It was also nice to hear both from the brewer from Green Cheek (CBB podcast) and Sam from OH (Instagram) that basically shelf stability of West Coast IPAs and New England IPAs are actually quite similar. I guess they mean that in the sense that if you store a West coast IPA or a NEIPA at cold temperatures, that both will still taste fresh as the brewer intended after 2 months.

 

[couchsending]

Got a new experimental variety from Australia to try out that I’m really excited about. HPA-016 is it’s experimental name. Supposedly even fruitier than Galaxy, but more orange with some pine.

Can’t decide if I want to do a single hop beer or pair it with something. Leaning towards a little Idaho 7 maybe.

Going to brew this same beer twice in a row. Tomorrow with ECY10 and the next day with VT Ale to see how the yeast/hop interactions differ.

Be on the lookout for Experimental variety 4337 from NZ as well. The most expressive NZ hop outside of Nelson I’ve run across. Zero diesel or weird earthy aspects typical of a lot of NZ hops. It’s almost more Australian than NZ witch is odd.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Supposedly even fruitier than Galaxy, but more orange with some pine.

Can’t decide if I want to do a single hop beer or pair it with something. Leaning towards a little Idaho 7 maybe.

If doing this twice in a row - do one with I7 and one without! At least with the current packs of I7 I have from 2019 (YVH), I gets nice orange and smooth pine with I7 already. So if your description of the experimental hop holds true, these two hops could be a nice combo but the I7 could mask what you are looking for in the experimental hop as well. So my vote: do both! lol

 

[Dgallo]

Got a new experimental variety from Australia to try out that I’m really excited about. HPA-016 is it’s experimental name. Supposedly even fruitier than Galaxy, but more orange with some pine.

Can’t decide if I want to do a single hop beer or pair it with something. Leaning towards a little Idaho 7 maybe.

Going to brew this same beer twice in a row. Tomorrow with ECY10 and the next day with VT Ale to see how the yeast/hop interactions differ.

Be on the lookout for Experimental variety 4337 from NZ as well. The most expressive NZ hop outside of Nelson I’ve run across. Zero diesel or weird earthy aspects typical of a lot of NZ hops. It’s almost more Australian than NZ witch is odd.

I say single hop it. You’ll get a great idea how it works doing it twice and we will be the beneficiaries of your experiment lol

 

[beervoid]

Got a new experimental variety from Australia to try out that I’m really excited about. HPA-016 is it’s experimental name. Supposedly even fruitier than Galaxy, but more orange with some pine.

Can’t decide if I want to do a single hop beer or pair it with something. Leaning towards a little Idaho 7 maybe.

Going to brew this same beer twice in a row. Tomorrow with ECY10 and the next day with VT Ale to see how the yeast/hop interactions differ.

Be on the lookout for Experimental variety 4337 from NZ as well. The most expressive NZ hop outside of Nelson I’ve run across. Zero diesel or weird earthy aspects typical of a lot of NZ hops. It’s almost more Australian than NZ witch is odd.

Nice, I have some 4337 here as well, cant wait to try it out. I vote single hop as well. Idaho7 influences character quiet alot imho.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

What makes this a bit misleading is that, in practice, it is a lot easier to reduce the temperature by an order of magnitude (30C -> 3C) then reducing the DO (300ppb -> 30ppb) by an order of magnitude, even more so for home brewers.
I also don't know how low we can get our DOs as home brewers. (maybe closer to 300ppb than 30ppb????)

Except when you're talking about chemical reactions, you should be using an absolute scale of temperature like kelvin, rather than centrigrade or farenheit.

30°C to 3°C is not a reduction of an order of magnitude, as it's really 303 kelvin going to 276K, a reduction of 9%.

However, enzymes are very sensitive to temperature, and typically their activity increases 50-100% with every 10°C closer to their optimum temperature (which is often around 30°C). So it's possible that if you are lucky enough to be at an ambient of 33°C (91°F) then going 3x10°C =30°C below that will reduce the more temperature-sensitive enzyme-driven staling reactions by 2^3=8 times, but equally you could be looking at a less sensitive reaction that only decreases 1.5^3 = 3.4 times, and if that reaction is starting at an ambient of 23°C (73°F, so a 2x10°C drop) then the reduction is only 1.5^2 = 2.3 times.

So the benefits of cooling do vary depending on what reaction you're talking about, and what your ambient temperature is like.

 

[Rainy]

Except when you're talking about chemical reactions, you should be using an absolute scale of temperature like kelvin, rather than centrigrade or farenheit.

30°C to 3°C is not a reduction of an order of magnitude, as it's really 303 kelvin going to 276K, a reduction of 9%.

However, enzymes are very sensitive to temperature, and typically their activity increases 50-100% with every 10°C closer to their optimum temperature (which is often around 30°C). So it's possible that if you are lucky enough to be at an ambient of 33°C (91°F) then going 3x10°C =30°C below that will reduce the more temperature-sensitive enzyme-driven staling reactions by 2^3=8 times, but equally you could be looking at a less sensitive reaction that only decreases 1.5^3 = 3.4 times, and if that reaction is starting at an ambient of 23°C (73°F, so a 2x10°C drop) then the reduction is only 1.5^2 = 2.3 times.

So the benefits of cooling do vary depending on what reaction you're talking about, and what your ambient temperature is like.

You are totally right about Kelvin vs Celcius! I feel a bit embarrassed not think of the fact that temperatures should be in Kelvin. Same for ideal gas law and almost if not all equations in SI units.

Thanks also for the great insight on the sensitivity to temperature in enzyme driven reactions. It's not really my field of expertise. I did not even know that staling reactions are enzyme driven.
The big problem is that for now we don't really know what causes the reduction/change in hoppy character (maybe you have an idea?). In the conclusion of the paper they speculate more about a masking effect due to stalling compounds being created rather than specific hop compounds (e.g. monoterpene alcohols) oxidising. So it might all be a bit counter-intuitive and highly non-linear behaviour, which is what I have come to expect from flavour and aroma.

A further question. Is the browning effect in some NEIPAs related to polyphenol oxidation like what one sees with an apple of an avocado being exposed to air, or that has not been confirmed yet? Also a browned apple can taste quite similar (this "weird sweet flavour") to the flavours you get in an oxidised NEIPA. Is that due to similar staling compounds being formed?

In that regard, I made an interesting observation in the past months. Whenever I want to take a gravity reading from a NEIPA I drank in the evening, I let the sample stand overnight to then measure it in the morning. Over the past months I've seen very different degrees of this browning with some NEIPAS not having browned much at all over night. So it seems that brewing process (dry hop timing, centrifuging,...) or ingredients that certain breweries use, might have an effect an the concentration of compounds in the final beer that are responsible for this browning effect.

 

[beervoid]

You are totally right about Kelvin vs Celcius! I feel a bit embarrassed not think of the fact that temperatures should be in Kelvin. Same for ideal gas law and almost if not all equations in SI units.

Thanks also for the great insight on the sensitivity to temperature in enzyme driven reactions. It's not really my field of expertise. I did not even know that staling reactions are enzyme driven.
The big problem is that for now we don't really know what causes the reduction/change in hoppy character (maybe you have an idea?). In the conclusion of the paper they speculate more about a masking effect due to stalling compounds being created rather than specific hop compounds (e.g. monoterpene alcohols) oxidising. So it might all be a bit counter-intuitive and highly non-linear behaviour, which is what I have come to expect from flavour and aroma.

A further question. Is the browning effect in some NEIPAs related to polyphenol oxidation like what one sees with an apple of an avocado being exposed to air, or that has not been confirmed yet? Also a browned apple can taste quite similar (this "weird sweet flavour") to the flavours you get in an oxidised NEIPA. Is that due to similar staling compounds being formed?

In that regard, I made an interesting observation in the past months. Whenever I want to take a gravity reading from a NEIPA I drank in the evening, I let the sample stand overnight to then measure it in the morning. Over the past months I've seen very different degrees of this browning with some NEIPAS not having browned much at all over night. So it seems that brewing process (dry hop timing, centrifuging,...) or ingredients that certain breweries use, have an effect an the concentration of compounds in the final beer that are responsible for this browning effect.

Did you note which beers (breweries) got darker or lighter?

 

[Rainy]

Also wanted to recommend the Barth Hass dry hopping booth camp that's going on the past and next weeks: Dry-Hopping Bootcamp | BarthHaas

It's a free webinar series about all aspects of dry hopping, done by one of the most important hop companies in the world.
Barth/Haas for example developed INCOGNITO (discussed earlier in this thread), which is used by Other Half in their HDHC treatment of their ipas.

The first two webinars have already passed, with the first one being about dry hop timing and the second one about different hop products. I think at one point they will post the videos online, so you can rewatch. At each webinar you can also download the handouts ind pdf format.

There was no earth shattering information in there for people that follow this thread, but it was nice to have an oversight about pros and cons of different timings of hopping with different kinds of products and how to get good hop extraction and avoid polyphenol astringency. I think in general it's more aimed at professional brewers, which makes it quite interesting for all of us, as sometimes there's information in there that you would read more on e.g. the probrewer forum than in this thread.

In the one about hop products today, they described INCOGNITO as a product you add in the whirlpool but it has the effect of a dry hop, so adding aroma. I found that quite interesting as I always saw a whirlpool addition with pellets as a taste addition. So quite an interesting way to add more aroma to the beer without having to add more hops to the fermenter.

It's also cool to see that a traditional German company with a lot of history is really up to date if you see them talking about brewing new england ipas.

Another series of free webinars that I can recommend is the Yakima chief ones: Webinars | Yakima Chief Hops

I've only watched the one about "Designing efficient beers: Maximizing dry hopping" and that was a nice explanation of how and when to use cryo in combination with pellets.

 

[Rainy]

Did you note which beers (breweries) got darker or lighter?

No, I should have done that. I don't even know if it is brewery specific of beer specific.
I think I never saw any of the DEYA beers brown significantly. Could also be because their malt bill is always so light in colour that the browning is less apparent.
So take it with a grain of salt, but there was definitely a difference in rate of browning between some beers that was large enough for me to notice it without paying attention to it.

 

[Genuine]

I'm excited for my current batch. Imperial's Dryhop is a beast. Brewed this past Friday, Yeast took off Saturday and fermentation started to slow down on Monday. First dry hop during fermentation used 1oz each of Citra, Mosiac, Galaxy and El Dorado. 2nd dry hop will be 1oz each of Citra, Mosiac and El Dorado. Should come out to be 6.8%.

 

[marjen]

Anyone used South African SA blend or South African Southern Passion in a NE IPA? Got a pound of each. Wondering if I should mix or just do single hop brews to see what they bring to the table.

 

[isomerization]

You are totally right about Kelvin vs Celcius! I feel a bit embarrassed not think of the fact that temperatures should be in Kelvin. Same for ideal gas law and almost if not all equations in SI units.

Thanks also for the great insight on the sensitivity to temperature in enzyme driven reactions. It's not really my field of expertise. I did not even know that staling reactions are enzyme driven.
The big problem is that for now we don't really know what causes the reduction/change in hoppy character (maybe you have an idea?). In the conclusion of the paper they speculate more about a masking effect due to stalling compounds being created rather than specific hop compounds (e.g. monoterpene alcohols) oxidising. So it might all be a bit counter-intuitive and highly non-linear behaviour, which is what I have come to expect from flavour and aroma.

A further question. Is the browning effect in some NEIPAs related to polyphenol oxidation like what one sees with an apple of an avocado being exposed to air, or that has not been confirmed yet? Also a browned apple can taste quite similar (this "weird sweet flavour") to the flavours you get in an oxidised NEIPA. Is that due to similar staling compounds being formed?

In that regard, I made an interesting observation in the past months. Whenever I want to take a gravity reading from a NEIPA I drank in the evening, I let the sample stand overnight to then measure it in the morning. Over the past months I've seen very different degrees of this browning with some NEIPAS not having browned much at all over night. So it seems that brewing process (dry hop timing, centrifuging,...) or ingredients that certain breweries use, might have an effect an the concentration of compounds in the final beer that are responsible for this browning effect.

From personal experience, I have seen different yeast strains have a great effect on how fast a beer will oxidize when left out (similar grain bills but different hops, so confounding factor there).

 

[couchsending]

Anyone used South African SA blend or South African Southern Passion in a NE IPA? Got a pound of each. Wondering if I should mix or just do single hop brews to see what they bring to the table.

My experience with the South African hops is especially the ones homebrewers have access to haven’t been that great. I’ve bought them from four different sources. I haven’t been impressed upon opening any of the bags. Who knows yours might be different? I know SA has had horrible drought the last few years, not sure of that’s contributing to the quality or not? Southern Passion is supposedly the most desirable. I will say they do bring some crazy flavors and aromas that you won’t experience anywhere else. They definitely have a unique “terroir” aspect to them. However they just don’t seem that punchy to me? At least the stuff I’ve purchased.

I’d say open the bag. Rub them, smell them. If they’re decent try a single hop Pale Ale or something. If they’re kinda boring or just don’t have much to offer blend them in the WP any maybe a little in the DH?

 

[skleice]

Anyone want to share their 'goto' hopping schedule? I've been playing with bittering additions, whirlpool only, 10 minute additions, flameout, etc, but I'm just not finding that right combo to bring out the juiciness of these hops.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Anyone want to share their 'goto' hopping schedule? I've been playing with bittering additions, whirlpool only, 10 minute additions, flameout, etc, but I'm just not finding that right combo to bring out the juiciness of these hops.

Opinions on this will vary wildly lol. For me, I like about 7-9% in boil, 36-40%ish in the whirlpool, and 50-55%ish in the dry hops. I like to have a 60min bittering and then another boil addition at 5 or 10minutes left. For whirlpool, I like to stagger my additions out rather than dump them all in. So I stagger them at 60,45,30,15minutes. For dry hop I like to do a 3day dose and a second DH at 2 days prior to cold crashing. Id say if your percentages are close to mine, it will get you in the neighborhood of a good finished beer that isn't one dimensional. Of course, as you read in this thread, there are some who prefer to put a lot less in the whirlpool than me and ramp up the DH rates. So opinions will vary.