New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[BeerFst]

@Noob_Brewer ypure right the abv has something to do with it. Alcohol is lower gravity, so your apparent attenuation is based on what your hydro measures. But in reality the abv is actually offsetting the measurement down. Read up on Real Extract, which would be the corrected value of your beer if you removed all the alcohol from it. Your actual fg would be above 1.02. Compared to your 5% beer that finished at 1.012 which would be much closer to 1.012 after the same correction

 

[eugles]

So last weekend, Brulosophy did a patreon live q and a with Noah Bissell of Bissell Brothers - one of my favorite breweries. He mentioned something again which has been totally confusing me and I haven’t been able to get a good answer to. He said they’ve experimented a bit with cooling wort down before whirlpool hopping, but haven’t done it much and didn’t notice anything significant.
So my question for you folks, why do most of the homebrew neipa recipes here and other places have whirlpools at 160 or well below isomerization temps? I understand the thought of keeping all the oils from being lost, but why is this the trend in homebrewing neipa communities when the breweries we try to replicate are throwing the hops in after flame out? With their large wort volumes, their utilization will actually be higher than anything we have at home, so they in fact stay hotter longer.
I’ll try to transcribe some bullet points from the session with other interesting info later today and post em here.

 

[Dgallo]

So last weekend, Brulosophy did a patreon live q and a with Noah Bissell of Bissell Brothers - one of my favorite breweries. He mentioned something again which has been totally confusing me and I haven’t been able to get a good answer to. He said they’ve experimented a bit with cooling wort down before whirlpool hopping, but haven’t done it much and didn’t notice anything significant.
So my question for you folks, why do most of the homebrew neipa recipes here and other places have whirlpools at 160 or well below isomerization temps? I understand the thought of keeping all the oils from being lost, but why is this the trend in homebrewing neipa communities when the breweries we try to replicate are throwing the hops in after flame out? With their large wort volumes, their utilization will actually be higher than anything we have at home, so they in fact stay hotter longer.
I’ll try to transcribe some bullet points from the session with other interesting info later today and post em here.

160 is well below isomerization temps, going below 150 opens up greater risk of infection since some wild yeast/bacteria can survive in those environments.

many breweries that we are trying to replicate do boil, flameout, whirlpool hot, whirlpool cooler, dryhop during fermentation, dryhop post fermentation and after yeast are dropped and all in between. They all choose what gives the best result for their system.

industrial arts (who just won best brewery in NY, obviously debatable) does Their first addition at 180ish.

 

[anteater8]

Brewing this up today, looking forward to something a little bit different.

14 lb 2 row
3 lb flaked oats
0.75 lb wheat
0.25 lb honey malt

0.5 oz Warrior (19 IBU)
1 oz Citra whirlpool (4 IBU)
2 oz Motueka whirlpool (4 IBU)
3 oz Citra dry hop
6 oz Motueka dry hop

Imperial Barbarian gen 3

 

[crusader1612]

Brewing this up today, looking forward to something a little bit different.

14 lb 2 row
3 lb flaked oats
0.75 lb wheat
0.25 lb honey malt

0.5 oz Warrior (19 IBU)
1 oz Citra whirlpool (4 IBU)
2 oz Motueka whirlpool (4 IBU)
3 oz Citra dry hop
6 oz Motueka dry hop

Imperial Barbarian gen 3

Citra motueka is awesome

 

[anteater8]

Citra motueka is awesome

Glad to hear it! I haven't used Motueka in a NEIPA and I wanted to highlight it, but I also didn't want it to be boring so I figured bringing some Citra in could only help.

 

[Dgallo]

Glad to hear it! I haven't used Motueka in a NEIPA and I wanted to highlight it, but I also didn't want it to be boring so I figured bringing some Citra in could only help.

Motueka can be delicate so I think it was a good call to crush it in the dryhop

 

[Frieds]

Would anyone know approximately how many cells I would have in a 60ml slurry of LA3?

 

[Dgallo]

Would anyone know approximately how many cells I would have in a 60ml slurry of LA3?

http://www.mrmalty.com/calc/repitch.html
it’s going to be a pretty rough estimate but better than shooting blind

 

[TheMadKing]

Brewing my version of this next weekend. I prefer a little more malt and a little more orangy color so I substitute golden naked oats for the flaked oats. I also think their mouthfeel contribution is superior to flaked oats as well.

I'm using Apollo for bittering, then a Citra, Simcoe, Mosaic hop combo with a 5 minute addition of Apollo as well for a background grapefruit punch. I like a littler more bitterness in mine than most.

 

[Genuine]

I picked up a lb of Galaxy during YVH's flash sale last friday. Thinking of throwing in an oz in the dry hop along with Citra, Mosiac and El Dorado.

 

[emr25]

Glad to hear it! I haven't used Motueka in a NEIPA and I wanted to highlight it, but I also didn't want it to be boring so I figured bringing some Citra in could only help.

In 20+ batches of NE IPA, the single-hopped Motueka is still my favorite. Dual-hopped Citra / Nelson combo is a close second.

 

[stickyfinger]

In 20+ batches of NE IPA, the single-hopped Motueka is still my favorite. Dual-hopped Citra / Nelson combo is a close second.

Motueka seemed a little understated to me. Maybe i’ll try it again with MOAR

 

[emr25]

Motueka seemed a little understated to me. Maybe i’ll try it again with MOAR

This was 2019 YVH Motueka (6.2% AA). Predicted IBUs around 35 in a 6.7% ABV recipe.

30 Min - 3 mL Hop Extract
10 Min - 1 oz Motueka
160* WP - 6 oz Motueka
DH (Keg) - 6 oz Motueka

 

[kevink]

In 20+ batches of NE IPA, the single-hopped Motueka is still my favorite. Dual-hopped Citra / Nelson combo is a close second.

Cool, I just brewed one with Nelson, Citra, and a touch of Columbus.

 

[Dgallo]

Cool, I just brewed one with Nelson, Citra, and a touch of Columbus.

Great combo

 

[Frieds]

I am in the process of creating my next recipe which will be an all citra imperial ipa but I will be using Cryo hops for the first time alongside t90. I have 100g of Cryo to work with but having never used it before I’m not sure the best way to utilise it. Should I use the whole amount in the dry hop to negate losses?

 

[Rainy]

I just did a 5 gal batch of citra pale ale of 5.5% with 20g of T90 at 10min, 100g gram T90 in the Whirlpool and 100g T90 + 100g Cryo in the dry hop and it has a great balance between fruitiness and hop complexity. I think I also heard in a CBB podcast with Pinthouse Pizza that they use 50:50 T90 and cryo in the dry hop on some of their beers. For me, cryo lets you cram some more flavour into the beer without having too much problems with polyphenol astringency. And I think using T90 in the whirlpool makes more sense for us homebrewers as there are some compounds in the leafy matter op the hops that might biotransform (hence introducing some in the whirlpool) and volume loss in the kettle is not a big problem for us, so no need to use cryo in the whirlpool. But that's just my experience.

I think it's all about finding a balance between introducing enough leafy material to get some extra hop complexity but not too much to avoid polyphenol astringency.

Edit: The Pinthouse Pizza CBB podcast has a lot of information about when to use cryo and when T90 and what results you can expect

Edit2: I also heard on some other podcast that for cryo often better hop lots are used. So in the philosophy of using your best hops in the after terminal dry hop, adding cryo in the dry hop sort of assures you that you are adding the best hops at the end.

 

[Frieds]

I just did a 5 gal batch of citra pale ale of 5.5% with 20g of T90 at 10min, 100g gram T90 in the Whirlpool and 100g T90 + 100g Cryo in the dry hop and it has a great balance between fruitiness and hop complexity. I think I also heard in a CBB podcast with Pinthouse Pizza that they use 50:50 T90 and cryo in the dry hop on some of their beers. For me, cryo lets you cram some more flavour into the beer without having too much problems with polyphenol astringency. And I think using T90 in the whirlpool makes more sense for us homebrewers as there are some compounds in the leafy matter op the hops that might biotransform (hence introducing some in the whirlpool) and volume loss in the kettle is not a big problem for us, so no need to use cryo in the whirlpool. But that's just my experience.

I think it's all about finding a balance between introducing enough leafy material to get some extra hop complexity but not too much to avoid polyphenol astringency.

Edit: The Pinthouse Pizza CBB podcast has a lot of information about when to use cryo and when T90 and what results you can expect

Edit2: I also heard on some other podcast that for cryo often better hop lots are used. So in the philosophy of using your best hops in the after terminal dry hop, adding cryo in the dry hop sort of assures you that you are adding the best hops at the end.

Thanks, I’ll have to give that episode another listen again.

 

[Rainy]

These are my notes from that podcast (sorry, too lazy to write full sentences ):
Citra: early dry hop: Mango; after fermentation: more pungent and dank
Control contribution of hop by when you add it or how you use it
Increase aroma with higher dry hop
Cryo cleans up the hop profile and drives up intensity
Dryhop: 50% Cryo, 50% T90
Design beer for full cryo dryhop by having more pellets in whirlpool -> need polyphenols
Cryo allows adding more hops at different places -> more during fermentation while still avoiding the problems due to interaction of yeast with hop leafy material.
Dry hop multiple times to add more complexity.
More (still quite small addition)hot side hops (FWH, mash hopping, low temp whirlpool 185F-200F (85C-93C))for more backbone, stability and complexity
Low temp whirlpool (85C-90C)-> add more flavour without adding more bitterness
Less polyphenols with cryo -> bigger dry hop possible.
Too much cryo -> hop burn
DRINKABILITY!
Longer conditioning times for higher hopped beers
Use Kölsch yeast???? (“somewhere between an ale and a lager”) -> not diacetyl producer

Edit: put everything relating to cryo in bold.

 

[Dgallo]

I am in the process of creating my next recipe which will be an all citra imperial ipa but I will be using Cryo hops for the first time alongside t90. I have 100g of Cryo to work with but having never used it before I’m not sure the best way to utilise it. Should I use the whole amount in the dry hop to negate losses?

Cryo certainly has its part in hopbills and I like cryo in both dryhop and Whirlpool. What’s also nice about cryo is there are far less polyphenols than in t90 pellets because they come from plant material not lupulin glands.

There was a review of Skaasdoosh by John Kimmich himself that touched upon how he likes to use cryo In combination with pellets. It’s was some where along the lines of about 20%-40% both hotside and cold side additions.

If you double dryhop, what I found to be best is to save your cryo for your second addition. This seems to really keep the character as bright as possible. Also don’t overlook using cryo cascade. It really adds some great “true” hop flavor to your beers

 

[crusader1612]

Cryo certainly has its part in hopbills and I like cryo in both dryhop and Whirlpool. What’s also nice about cryo is there are far less polyphenols than in t90 pellets because they come from plant material not lupulin glands.

There was a review of Skaasdoosh by John Kimmich himself that touched upon how he likes to use cryo In combination with pellets. It’s was some where along the lines of about 20%-40% both hotside and cold side additions.

If you double dryhop, what I found to be best is to save your cryo for your second addition. This seems to really keep the character as bright as possible. Also don’t overlook using cryo cascade. It really adds some great “true” hop flavor to your beers

When it comes to cryo for me - my go to for these beers (this include West Coast IPA's). is 150g of cryo in the dryhop. which in the end equates to 300g if it was pellets approx.

love cryo cascade, it is significantly different to pellets, its so much brighter and fresher.

 

[marjen]

Quick PH question. What should ph look like for these beers, post mash, post boil? Also if adding lactic acid, when is the best time to add it?

 

[Dgallo]

Quick PH question. What should ph look like for these beers, post mash, post boil? Also if adding lactic acid, when is the best time to add it?

Most important ph is your mash ph. IMHO you should Target 5.3-5.4 and depending on how much bicarbonate is in your brewing water, will determine if you need to use acid or not.

Your water volumes aind how much hops you add will Effect your knock out ph.

Yeast strain and amount of dryhops will effect finished ph

 

[Rainy]

Most important ph is your mash ph. IMHO you should Target 5.3-5.4 and depending on how much bicarbonate is in your brewing water, will determine if you need to use acid or not.

Your water volumes aind how much hops you add will Effect your knock out ph.

Yeast strain and amount of dryhops will effect finished ph

Any ideas about pre-boil or post-boil pH?
I vaguely remember multiple brewers (Dan Suarez, Henry Nguyen: "Tareget knock out pH, pre-fermentation of about 5" (at what temp?)) targeting less than 5.2 for preboil pH to get a softer bitterness from the hot side hops.

 

[Rainy]

This is the post from @couchsending that I still vaguely remembered talking about pH for hoppy beers: Isolated Yeast (Tree House): How to Identify and Characterize?

Quoting couchsending:
"I adjust along the way as necessary. Mash pH for hoppy beers is generally targeted at around 5.3 room. I acidify sparge water to 5.4-5.5 and kettle full pH will generally fall around 5.4. Most of the time I leave it there for at least 30 if not 60 (it will fall incrementally on its own throughout the boil) as I have to boil for 90 and I get better DMS reduction at 5.4. Just depends on when I’m adding hops and how much as to when I’ll add acid to lower it.

I haven’t done many experiments testing one vs the other it’s just based on research I’ve done over the last year or so on pH throughout the process. A quote from Shaun Hill sparked my curiosity.

“Every beer I brew. Constant surveillance on brew day throughout production. Especially pre and post boil. “

Got me looking into pH more outside of Mash and Sparge and the effect it has. If mash and sparge fall into spec and you boil for long enough without a ton of hops the pH into the Fermenter will generally be fine. You’re generally going to want below 5.2 for lighter beers at KO and obviously the hot break is maximized at a certain pH. But if you’re adding a ton of hops I’ve found it can get out of whack. I’ve heard Henry from Monkish talk about getting pH as close to 5.0 at KO, I’ve heard Dan Suarez mention it needing to be below 5.2 for hoppy beers. The brew log for Pliney you can find online has mash pH spec at 5.3-5.5, Kettle Full pH at 5.24, and KO pH at 5.07.

Also Nate’s comments on adding plenty of hops in the boil and obviously TH beers have rather low bitterness. Only way to get less bitterness out of hops is to have a lower pH, at least that I know of.

There are supposedly hop oil conversions that happen within a narrow PH band as well, although I need to do more research on this. "

 

[braindead]

Carbonation Question.
The difference I find between the American NEIPAs and our UK ones is the carbonation.
The Americans ones seem much finer more spritz like bubbles, you can feel each bubble of carbonation.
I keg my beers but still not nailed the carbonation on them like this.

Any recommendations ow you guys do this?

 

[beervoid]

Carbonation Question.
The difference I find between the American NEIPAs and our UK ones is the carbonation.
The Americans ones seem much finer more spritz like bubbles, you can feel each bubble of carbonation.
I keg my beers but still not nailed the carbonation on them like this.

Any recommendations ow you guys do this?

Use a carbonation chart and dial in your carbonation volumes. Aim for 2.6 if u want more spritz

 

[braindead]

Use a carbonation chart and dial in your carbonation volumes. Aim for 2.6 if u want more spritz

Thats what I usually aim for, just set it and forget it.
Wonder if a carbonation stone would make a difference

 

[Dgallo]

Any ideas about pre-boil or post-boil pH?
I vaguely remember multiple brewers (Dan Suarez, Henry Nguyen: "Tareget knock out pH, pre-fermentation of about 5" (at what temp?)) targeting less than 5.2 for preboil pH to get a softer bitterness from the hot side hops.

I generally fall around 5.1-5.2 without any other adjustments. I’ve only ever adjusted ph at this point for sours when using grains for the culture, so I can’t personally speak on the difference of targeting 5.0. My post fermentation tends to range a little but typically is 4.3-4.5 but I’ve had it fall as low at 4.1 and as high as 4.7