New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Noob_Brewer]

I run Barbarian between 72-74 and pitch about .5-.6, I get a solid stone fruit character that way. I don’t use it by itself very often though. Both are great yeast though. Would have been cool if you did a side by side.

OK rookie question here as Ive brewed a bunch (n=14) of these NEIPAs in a relatively short time. Since I am new, I haven't really done any under pitching of yeast as I just wanted to ensure good attenuation. My pitch rates have always been the traditional 0.75 or 1.0 pitch rates with only using the higher pitch rate for most of my double NEIPAs. I have though pushed towards the upper end of temp range (73 degrees) for A24, A04, GY054 and 95 degrees for Voss Kviek. So given that Ive always assumed that esters really shine by going high temp AND under pitching, I am thinking that under pitching is the bigger factor here for ester formation. Is this correct? My favorite yeasts so far have been A24 and Voss Kviek (Omega) but I don't think I have really expressed the esters as much as I could have by under pitching. I also haven't wanted esters overpowering my hop combos. I have a fresh pack of A24 so thinking I might try under pitching the next one.

 

[crusader1612]

OK rookie question here as Ive brewed a bunch (n=14) of these NEIPAs in a relatively short time. Since I am new, I haven't really done any under pitching of yeast as I just wanted to ensure good attenuation. My pitch rates have always been the traditional 0.75 or 1.0 pitch rates with only using the higher pitch rate for most of my double NEIPAs. I have though pushed towards the upper end of temp range (73 degrees) for A24, A04, GY054 and 95 degrees for Voss Kviek. So given that Ive always assumed that esters really shine by going high temp AND under pitching, I am thinking that under pitching is the bigger factor here for ester formation. Is this correct? My favorite yeasts so far have been A24 and Voss Kviek (Omega) but I don't think I have really expressed the esters as much as I could have by under pitching. I also haven't wanted esters overpowering my hop combos. I have a fresh pack of A24 so thinking I might try under pitching the next one.

Yes, from my limited understanding of Kveik yeasts, under pitching will increase ester formation (in voss this is citrus generally).
I am not sure around off-flavours etc. though, which is always my main concern.

For liquid yeasts, i've been told t hat Opshaug has enough for 2-3 pitches in a single pcket, but someone else might be able to shed a little light on that.

I just ran with the dry lallemand voss yeast 2 packs unrehydrated into 1.068OG wort. testing the potential theory for stressed yeast, while pitching based on the lallemand recommendations for pack numbers.
kegged in 8 days.

 

[Dgallo]

OK rookie question here as Ive brewed a bunch (n=14) of these NEIPAs in a relatively short time. Since I am new, I haven't really done any under pitching of yeast as I just wanted to ensure good attenuation. My pitch rates have always been the traditional 0.75 or 1.0 pitch rates with only using the higher pitch rate for most of my double NEIPAs. I have though pushed towards the upper end of temp range (73 degrees) for A24, A04, GY054 and 95 degrees for Voss Kviek. So given that Ive always assumed that esters really shine by going high temp AND under pitching, I am thinking that under pitching is the bigger factor here for ester formation. Is this correct? My favorite yeasts so far have been A24 and Voss Kviek (Omega) but I don't think I have really expressed the esters as much as I could have by under pitching. I also haven't wanted esters overpowering my hop combos. I have a fresh pack of A24 so thinking I might try under pitching the next one.

So yeast produce esters as a result of stress and they produce the majority of their esters during the growth phase.

Underpitching actually kills two birds with one stone. By under pitching you are extending the growth phase where the yeast are multiplying themself to a proper number to consume the sugar in the wort. By extending this phase, the yeast will produce esters for a longer period. By under pitching, you are increasing stress to the yeast and in return increasing the production of esters.

Temperature can further stress the yeast, leading to even more ester production. So by under pitching and temperature stressing the yeast you can greatly increase the ester profile of your beer.

 

[crusader1612]

So yeast produce esters as a result of stress and they produce the majority of their esters during the growth phase.

Underpitching actually kills two birds with one stone. By under pitching you are extending the growth phase where the yeast are multiplying themself to a proper number to consume the sugar in the wort. By extending this phase, the yeast will produce esters for a longer period. By under pitching, you are increasing stress to the yeast and in return increasing the production of esters.

Temperature can further stress the yeast, leading to even more ester production. So by under pitching and temperature stressing the yeast you can greatly increase the ester profile of your beer.

the question i have is, what is the effect on off-flavours for yeasts like kveik, i haven't heard any problems, but given its a living organism, if you stress it out enough, surely something will happen?

 

[Noob_Brewer]

the question i have is, what is the effect on off-flavours for yeasts like kveik, i haven't heard any problems, but given its a living organism, if you stress it out enough, surely something will happen?

LOL thats what Ive always been afraid of just like the boogie man! With Voss Kviek Ive also read that the esters can be way overpowering too when under pitching and running hot. Ive read somewhere (can't remember where) that the kvieks can run "cleaner" with lower temps but haven't tested that myself yet. So when I've run Voss Kviek (Omega Liquid Yeast), Ive always pitched it at 0.75 and Ive done that on 5 beers ranging in OG from 1.065-1.075. All have had the same temp drive: pitched at 90, let free rise to 95 and then hold until done fermenting which has typically been 72hrs conservatively speaking. None have had off-flavors that I can detect. To me Voss esters are definitely "orange" which I really like, but again with my pitch rates, I don't think Im getting overpowering esters that some get with under pitching.

 

[Dgallo]

the question i have is, what is the effect on off-flavours for yeasts like kveik, i haven't heard any problems, but given its a living organism, if you stress it out enough, surely something will happen?

So you kinda answered your own question in a way, yeast strains are different organisms and handle stress differently. Using your example of kviek strains, they can tolerate high temperature and still properly convert the sugar into ethanol. If you tried to push LAIII over 75*f you’ll most likely experience fusel alcohol off flavors. Some strains don’t produce much esters at all. Belgian strains can be POF+ and produce phenols which are flavor compound but not esters.

This is where the art of brewing comes in. you have to get to know the strains you are working with and experiment with their capabilities.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

So yeast produce esters as a result of stress and they produce the majority of their esters during the growth phase.

Underpitching actually kills two birds with one stone. By under pitching you are extending the growth phase where the yeast are multiplying themself to a proper number to consume the sugar in the wort. By extending this phase, the yeast will produce esters for a longer period. By under pitching, you are increasing stress to the yeast and in return increasing the production of esters.

Temperature can further stress the yeast, leading to even more ester production. So by under pitching and temperature stressing the yeast you can greatly increase the ester profile of your beer.

Thanks @Dgallo for the explanation. That clears up a lot in my head. Based on this explanation and my previous pitch rates, Im assuming that Ive been getting SOME esters from the relatively higher temps which does stress the yeast somewhat but not from my pitch rates (~0.75) which essentially cuts down the growth phase needed compared to under pitching. So I will plan another beer and try 0.6 pitch rate and keep my ferm temp drive the same to start experimenting with developing ester profiles with the beer. Will try this with A24. I am assuming that by under pitching and having a longer growth phase, this is why some peeps report a little longer time lag leading to high krausen? When I pitch at 0.75 with A24, the high krausen seems to always be around the 24hr mark. Loving this new hobby, but so much to learn!

 

[R.A.I.D]

What can I do to avoid hop burn while keeping aroma and flavor at a max?

Looking at this thread I have found the following tips:
- Minimize use of oat
- Use whirlfloc
- Whirlpool at 160 F (71 C) or below
- Hard crash before dry hopping
- Hard crash after dry hopping
- Let the beer mature for 2-3 weeks (3-5 weeks if I used potent hops like Galaxy, Vic Secret or Idaho 7)

Are there more tips?

 

[R.A.I.D]

Flaked Wheat - extremely good for head retention and body. Cause quite a bit of haze but best to be used at 15% and under otherwise it can certainly cause a slight clearing. Adds wheat notes

Sounds like 15 % flaked wheat is a good choice

 

[ryanm8]

Add dry hopping in a large bag to the list. When I do that combined with hard crashing, I get no hop burn. No need to do the rest on your list.

What can I do to avoid hop burn while keeping aroma and flavor at a max?

Looking at this thread I have found the following tips:
- Minimize use of oat
- Use whirlfloc
- Whirlpool at 160 F (71 C) or below
- Hard crash before dry hopping
- Hard crash after dry hopping
- Let the beer mature for 2-3 weeks (3-5 weeks if I used potent hops like Galaxy, Vic Secret or Idaho 7)

Are there more tips?

 

[Dgallo]

Sounds like 15 % flaked wheat is a good choice

You can use it in combination with the other grains as well. I combine malted wheat and flaked wheat or oat or barely quite often. I also use malted oats with flaked wheat a lot so I can get that slickness from the oat and the head retention from the wheat.

 

[Dgallo]

Add dry hopping in a large bag to the list. When I do that combined with hard crashing, I get no hop burn. No need to do the rest on your list.

Dryhoping in a bag is a huge bugaboo for me. You’re not maximizing your efficiency. Raw dog those bad boys

 

[R.A.I.D]

Add dry hopping in a large bag to the list. When I do that combined with hard crashing, I get no hop burn. No need to do the rest on your list.

After dry hopping in my dry hopping keg and transfering to my serving keg, my dry hop keg looks like this. I still have some hop burn.

 

[Dgallo]

What can I do to avoid hop burn while keeping aroma and flavor at a max?

Looking at this thread I have found the following tips:
- Minimize use of oat
- Use whirlfloc
- Whirlpool at 160 F (71 C) or below
- Hard crash before dry hopping
- Hard crash after dry hopping
- Let the beer mature for 2-3 weeks (3-5 weeks if I used potent hops like Galaxy, Vic Secret or Idaho 7)

Are there more tips?

Make sure you have clean wort going in the fermenter. You don’t want to transfer hops from the kettle, having these hops go through fermentation can also lead to hop burn. Unfortunately sometimes it’s just unavoidable and you just need to condition cold

 

[R.A.I.D]

You can use it in combination with the other grains as well. I combine malted wheat and flaked wheat or oat or barely quite often. I also use malted oats with flaked wheat a lot so I can get that slickness from the oat and the head retention from the wheat.

I did the @anteater8 recipe with 18 % flaked oat. Nice smooth beer and great head retention. Still a bit of foam on top of the beer minutes after pouring.
But still a bit of hop burn now 14 days after dry hopping. I suspect the process more than the recipe. But I will wait longer and see how it develops.

 

[secretlevel]

LOL thats what Ive always been afraid of just like the boogie man! With Voss Kviek Ive also read that the esters can be way overpowering too when under pitching and running hot. Ive read somewhere (can't remember where) that the kvieks can run "cleaner" with lower temps but haven't tested that myself yet. So when I've run Voss Kviek (Omega Liquid Yeast), Ive always pitched it at 0.75 and Ive done that on 5 beers ranging in OG from 1.065-1.075. All have had the same temp drive: pitched at 90, let free rise to 95 and then hold until done fermenting which has typically been 72hrs conservatively speaking. None have had off-flavors that I can detect. To me Voss esters are definitely "orange" which I really like, but again with my pitch rates, I don't think Im getting overpowering esters that some get with under pitching.

I think we need to think of Kveik yeast somewhat differently than ale yeast in how it works and produces esters. This study from Escrapment labs noticed that pitch rates had no impact on the amount of esters produced. Brulosophy had similar results. Another thing that I can't seem to find at the moment is one of the yeast manufacturers recommends pitching full volume of Kveik, as opposed to underpitching.

I would love to see a study on how temperatures affect ester production though.

What can I do to avoid hop burn while keeping aroma and flavor at a max?

Looking at this thread I have found the following tips:
- Minimize use of oat
- Use whirlfloc
- Whirlpool at 160 F (71 C) or below
- Hard crash before dry hopping
- Hard crash after dry hopping
- Let the beer mature for 2-3 weeks (3-5 weeks if I used potent hops like Galaxy, Vic Secret or Idaho 7)

Are there more tips?

For me, a dry hop colder than 60F and no longer than 48 hours did the trick. At this point, it's up to how big your dry hop is too. If you dry hop at 3oz/gallon, not sure if there's much you can do to avoid the burn other than take out the hops and give the beer a week or two... it always goes away with time.

 

[RTE]

Anyone else see this photo on the hill farmstead Instagram? Is Edward already carbonated before they dry hop or is that just foam from the pour? I recall a discussion around that earlier. Seems like that might make sense if you wanted to naturally carb, otherwise if you dry hopped first when the yeast flocs out during the natural carbing process it could pull the hop oils with it.

 

[JohnConnor]

Anyone else see this photo on the hill farmstead Instagram? Is Edward already carbonated before they dry hop or is that just foam from the pour? I recall a discussion around that earlier. Seems like that might make sense if you wanted to naturally carb, otherwise if you dry hopped first when the yeast flocs out during the natural carbing process it could pull the hop oils with it.

View attachment 682431

Funny, I going to post this a couple days ago. A. I generate a decent amount of foam when I pour hydro samples from my brew bucket. But honestly, that was my first thought as well. That's pre-dry hop though. I can't see them dry hopping carbed beer. Have you ever tried that? B. I'm also shocked how close the color is. SNPA is listed at 11 srm. I didn't know Edward was that dark.

 

[Dgallo]

Funny, I going to post this a couple days ago. A. I generate a decent amount of foam when I pour hydro samples from my brew bucket. But honestly, that was my first thought as well. That's pre-dry hop though. I can't see them dry hopping carbed beer. Have you ever tried that? B. I'm also shocked how close the color is. SNPA is listed at 11 srm. I didn't know Edward was that dark.

Anyone else see this photo on the hill farmstead Instagram? Is Edward already carbonated before they dry hop or is that just foam from the pour? I recall a discussion around that earlier. Seems like that might make sense if you wanted to naturally carb, otherwise if you dry hopped first when the yeast flocs out during the natural carbing process it could pull the hop oils with it.

View attachment 682431

It’s really tough to say from the photo. Idk if you’ve ever seen what they to pull samples from bright Tanks or fermenters but it’s called a pigtail and the beer typically comes out pretty foamy from fully carbed bright. It’s very possible that it is lighly carbonated. I had a discussion with @VirginiaHops1 the other day about this and the more I thought about it would make sense for a light carb on the beer to keep the hops in suspension a bit instead of falling quickly to the bottom

 

[Noob_Brewer]

This study from Escrapment labs noticed that pitch rates had no impact on the amount of esters produced.

Thanks for the info! Looked at this link as well as a couple others from this lab. However, I wouldn't say that there is "no" impact of pitch rates on esters produced based on their analysis. 1) they did make the acknowledgement that this pitch rate study was part of a larger study (implying it could have been designed better to answer this specific research question). 2) they also acknowledge that the temps they did this pitch rate study at was 68 degrees. on a separate blog post: Crispy brewing with kveik: mind the pH gap they even said that at 15-20 degrees celsius there are "less intense esters". So obviously it would have been great to see this pitch rate study done in the 90-95 degree range where manufacturers are recommending using it. 3) Escrapment labs did not say there is "no" impact but rather stated "no easily discernible trend in overall ester production depending on pitch rate".

After looking at those bar graphs, I can't help but think that the pitch-rate contributing to ester production may be based on strain within the kviek family. If you look just at Hornidal Yeast on those ester bar graphs, it is quite clear (qualitatively) that as pitch rate increased, esters went down. For the other 4 kviek yeasts, this doesn't happen.

The PCA analysis was also interesting showing that the voss and hornidal yeasts appeared to have higher aroma intensities as pitch rate decreased but not for the other three kviek yeasts. While I need to brush up on my PCA analyses understanding, I think this again shows that we can't make blanket statements about pitch rate across the kviek yeast family though.

So I think that even with the limitations of their experiments, they at least paint the picture that pitch-rate and ester production is not uniform across the kviek yeasts. Certainly interesting to say the least. After a quick look at the brulosophy study you shared where there was no statistical difference between pitch rates - this was done with Loki which is a Voss Strain from what I understand. So, brulosophys study should be interpreted with respect to that yeast only.

Thanks for sharing this!

 

[kevink]

My hydro samples are 4oz and they definitely have some foam on them because the beer shoots out of my conical pretty hard due to the head pressure. A larger vessel would have even more head pressure on it. That additional pressure combined with the fact that it's almost a fill pint of Edward makes me think that it's a reasonable amount of head in that photo for a pre-carbed beer.

 

[JohnConnor]

It’s really tough to say from the photo. Idk if you’ve ever seen what they to pull samples from bright Tanks or fermenters but it’s called a pigtail and the beer typically comes out pretty foamy from fully carbed bright. It’s very possible that it is lighly carbonated. I had a discussion with @VirginiaHops1 the other day about this and the more I thought about it would make sense for a light carb on the beer to keep the hops in suspension a bit instead of falling quickly to the bottom

That's why I like dry hopping in keg and rotating it once in the morning and once at night. I'm not sure it helps but in my head it does. I'm too fearful of geysers...

 

[beervoid]

Listening to a podcast today that referenced a BSG paper released earlier this winter with some interesting info on cold dry hopping. Might actually get more fruitier aspects of the hops at colder temps vs. higher. Might have to try even colder than 55.

Could you share which podcast that was?
Cheers

 

[couchsending]

Could you share which podcast that was?
Cheers

Beersmith with Denny and Drew

 

[HopsAreGood]

Kegged this yesterday around 2pm and just pulled a small sample. Typically I set the temp and psi to the desired volume of co2 and then I shake the keg until it’s no longer accepting co2. This time I decided to go the set and forget route and be patient, but when pulling this sample I’m really surprised at how carbed it seems. Maybe not fully carbed up but way more than I thought it would be. Not sure why. Anyway, this beer had 2 ounces at 10, 2 ounces at 170 WP, and then a single dry hop of 8oz Citra AND 8oz strata. It’s pretty damn aromatic to say the least. Im going to leave it to condition for 10 days before pulling another sample, which will be 21 days from brew day, but I have high hopes for this one.

 

[Dgallo]

Kegged this yesterday around 2pm and just pulled a small sample. Typically I set the temp and psi to the desired volume of co2 and then I shake the keg until it’s no longer accepting co2. This time I decided to go the set and forget route and be patient, but when pulling this sample I’m really surprised at how carbed it seems. Maybe not fully carbed up but way more than I thought it would be. Not sure why. Anyway, this beer had 2 ounces at 10, 2 ounces at 170 WP, and then a single dry hop of 8oz Citra AND 8oz strata. It’s pretty damn aromatic to say the least. Im going to leave it to condition for 10 days before pulling another sample, which will be 21 days from brew day, but I have high hopes for this one.

View attachment 682669

16 oz dryhop in a 5 gallon batch?

 

[HopsAreGood]

16 oz dryhop in a 5 gallon batch?

Yup..I know it seems crazy and I agree that sometimes more is not always better, but I keep seeing more and more breweries talking about their dry hopping rates. Tons of breweries are dry hopping at these rates and for me I like playing around.

I soft crashed prior to the dry hop then hard crashed prior to transferring to the keg. The hop burn is really not that bad at all. Or my palette is just totally destroyed from hardcore hop abuse...lol.

11 pounds 2-row, 2.5 pounds white wheat, .5 pounds carafoam, .5 pounds c-10. Also used a single pack of s-04 fermented at 63, then raised to 68 for d-rest. Pretty much in line with what many people believe the trillium street series grain bills to be.

 

[stickyfinger]

I used 16 oz dry hop in a 6G beer one time. I just dumped an entire pack of Centennial in. It was not a great beer. It had a kind of woody character I didnt like much, but it was hoppy AF! I’d be up for trying more massive dry hops if people have recommendations on hops to use.

 

[Dgallo]

I used 16 oz dry hop in a 6G beer one time. I just dumped an entire pack of Centennial in. It was not a great beer. It had a kind of woody character I didnt like much, but it was hoppy AF! I’d be up for trying more massive dry hops if people have recommendations on hops to use.

Ive never came close to dryhoped that much, so I certainly will be no help ther. Thats 2-4oz more than I use in total in my NEIPA. In my triples I will use 16-18 oz tops but I know there are peole in here pushing the limit that can probably steer you in the right directions

 

[HopsAreGood]

I used 16 oz dry hop in a 6G beer one time. I just dumped an entire pack of Centennial in. It was not a great beer. It had a kind of woody character I didnt like much, but it was hoppy AF! I’d be up for trying more massive dry hops if people have recommendations on hops to use.

I think it just depends on what you like. I probably wouldn’t enjoy a 16 ounce dry hop of Centennial either, but I have nothing against Centennial. Pretty much any of the modern fruity hops should work, although I’d keep in mind the high polyphenol content of some of the Australian and New Zealand varieties. I had an 8 ounce bag of Citra, and an 8 ounce bag of strata, and just dumped them right in. I let them sit for about 24 hours at 68°, then swirled and lightly Spun the fermenter for a little while in order to get some of them to drop. Gave them another 24 hours at 68 and then started to crash down to 42. I have another beer on tap right now that has a total DryHop of 6 ounces, and while it’s a nice enjoyable beer to drink, it’s nowhere near as aromatic or strong as the sample I just took before.

One thing I’ll say though is that after adding in a full pound of hops, there was quite significant offgassing and or additional fermentation that occurred. I was pretty sure it was just offgassing but obviously adding dry hops can kick off a little bit of additional fermentation, hence hop creep. The jug of sanitizer that acts as my airlock was bubbling away significantly immediately after I added the dry hops all the way until the time I crashed it down.