New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Dgallo]

I'm not suffering from any oxidation issues but I thought about doing this. However only a minor fraction of the starsan gets sucked in from the airlock. By the end of the cold crash I still have almost as much airlock sanitizer as I initially had. Am I missing something here?



What you can do is use a small dorm fridge for fermentations. When the fermentation is done, use an Inkbird to drop the temp before dry hopping.
For pro brewers - who could say, I'm pretty sure they can purge the oxygen at any point in time with CO2 so I'm not sure if O2 is of much concern to them. The breweries that still do add dry hops during active fermentation probably try to take some advantage of biotransformation.

Having listened to a ton of CB&B podcasts as well, I feel like the majority of them drop the yeast out before dry hopping. At least the newer podcasts...

Does you sanitizer get blown out of your airlock during fermentation?

air still gets sucked through your airlock even though the sanitizer stays in the airlock. With negative pressure your airlock is practically a bong, will suck air in and keep the liquid in place.

I personally believe if you’re not managing this you are experiencing some form of oxidation. Once you do manage this, I would bet anything that your beers will improve. Even if you believe they are excellent now, they will get even better

 

[pmaster]

Yep, here you go! Don't get me wrong, it was definitely good. I've tried around 20 different hop combos and this was right in the middle of the road for me.

0.7 oz Warrior 60 min
4 oz Mosaic whirlpool (30 min 170 degrees)
4 oz Mosaic dry hop
2 oz Amarillo dry hop
2 oz Vic Secret dry hop

Cool, so I went with something similar but Amarillo as the dominant hop.
From the aroma I got from it i'm thinking it may not be as good as the citra/mosaic/galaxy combo, but i guess ill know in 2 weeks. Ill share my thoughts then!

 

[crusader1612]

what are peoples thoughts on this?
Citra-Galaxy NEIPA: Bioconversion | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog

I have a friend who brews hazies pretty much religiously, but always uses expensive hops. He literally does a 200g addition spread out over the hopstand time to get a layering of hops and then dryhops a shitload more on day 1 day 3 and day 10.

but I wondered if i could emulate beers like his (they're very well made). but using cheaper alternatives such as nugget etc. plus here in NZ, we can get super cheap hops like moutere and rakau, which still have good aroma qualities for more than half the price of hops like citra etc.

Keen to try out mike's way of doing things, particularly if the decision is made to go pro at any point.

Bio-conversion would still be keen and using the citras mosaics, galaxies sauvins etc may be key.

the last question i had was the 15min addition is 1oz, whichseems high, would this be ok? i've always used lower bittering and more aroma hops in these beers, but essentially coppied my friend template using my own hops, and especially when it comes to kitchen sink beers

 

[eugles]

just put a cold crash guardian from brew hardware or a mylar balloom filled with CO2 on before cold crash. No problem. I have been cold crashing and then warming back up to 70F for dry hop. I will never go back to biotransformation hopping or dry hopping at soft crash temps. This is an ideal procedure. Amazing long lasting juicy hop flavor. But it takes much longer and requires some care.

So you are crashing down to 32 and the warming back up to dry hop? I’ve never considered that.

 

[kevink]

So you are crashing down to 32 and the warming back up to dry hop? I’ve never considered that.

Yep, I'm a firm believer in this method now, but you don't have to drop it that low. I have been going down to 55. That way, you don't spend as much time bringing it back up to your DH temp. Search this thread for "soft crash" and you'll find plenty of info.

 

[couchsending]

I honestly don’t think warming back up above 55/60 is really all that important.

Recent CB&B podcast with Dino from Vitamin Sea. Said they dry hop for 4 days at 55.

Shaun Lawson’s dry hop temp recommendations in the Sip and Double Sun recipes is 55-57.

Latest Curiosity from Treehouse speaks about cold dry hopping and conditioning.

I’ve had great success with Galaxy heavy beers as well as Mosaic heavy beers dry hopping sub 60 (usually around 58)

Got two beers going now. One will be kegged tomorrow. The other just got its second round of dry hops today. All dry hopping has been at 55-57*. They’re both tasting and smelling awesome. Both beers are very Mosaic centered and I’m getting zero of that weird Mosaic stank.

Pale ale with Mosaic and a touch of Amarillo was 36 hours at 55 before cropping yeast and adding dry hops. No rousing just leaving it. Started dropping temps after 4 days. Dumped a bunch of trub today. Will keg tomorrow AM. Been at 40-42 for around 48 hours.

Second beer is a double IPA. Spent 2 days at 55 before cropping yeast (kinda poor flocculation) and adding first round of dry hops. (3:2:1 Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe) Beer spent 2 days at 55 then I pulled more yeast and any hops that had fallen and added another dry hop of the same quantity. Will spend 2 or 3 more days at 55 before gradually cooling and transferring.

 

[eugles]

I honestly don’t think warming back up is really all that important.

Recent CB&B podcast with Dino from Vitamin Sea. Said they dry hop for 4 days at 55.

Shaun Lawson’s dry hop temp recommendations in the Sip and Double Sun recipes is 55-57.

Latest Curiosity from Treehouse speaks about cold dry hopping and conditioning.

I’ve had great success with Galaxy heavy beers as well as Mosaic heavy beers dry hopping sub 60 (usually around 58)

Got two beers going now. One will be kegged tomorrow. The other just got its second round of dry hops today. All dry hopping has been at 55-57*. They’re both tasting and smelling awesome. Both beers are very Mosaic centered and I’m getting zero of that weird Mosaic stank.

Pale ale with Mosaic and a touch of Amarillo was 36 hours at 55 before cropping yeast and adding dry hops. No rousing just leaving it. Started dropping temps after 4 days. Dumped a bunch of trub today. Will keg tomorrow AM. Been at 40-42 for around 48 hours.

Second beer is a double IPA. Spent 2 days at 55 before cropping yeast (kinda poor flocculation) and adding first round of dry hops. (3:2:1 Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe) Beer spent 2 days at 55 then I pulled more yeast and any hops that had fallen and added another dry hop of the same quantity. Will spend 2 or 3 more days at 55 before gradually cooling and transferring.

Thanks for the feedback dude. I’ve read a lot of your posts and find the info you provide is very much along the lines of what I hear from the cb&b podcasts as well. It sounds like your setup is with conicals, which I have yet to move into. I’ve been completely lost as to where in the hell all my hop aroma is going. Given I don’t have a conical, what would be in your opinion the best setup possible for making aroma heavy neipas and beers in general.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I honestly don’t think warming back up is really all that important.

Recent CB&B podcast with Dino from Vitamin Sea. Said they dry hop for 4 days at 55.

Shaun Lawson’s dry hop temp recommendations in the Sip and Double Sun recipes is 55-57.

Latest Curiosity from Treehouse speaks about cold dry hopping and conditioning.

I’ve had great success with Galaxy heavy beers as well as Mosaic heavy beers dry hopping sub 60 (usually around 58)

Got two beers going now. One will be kegged tomorrow. The other just got its second round of dry hops today. All dry hopping has been at 55-57*. They’re both tasting and smelling awesome. Both beers are very Mosaic centered and I’m getting zero of that weird Mosaic stank.

Pale ale with Mosaic and a touch of Amarillo was 36 hours at 55 before cropping yeast and adding dry hops. No rousing just leaving it. Started dropping temps after 4 days. Dumped a bunch of trub today. Will keg tomorrow AM. Been at 40-42 for around 48 hours.

Second beer is a double IPA. Spent 2 days at 55 before cropping yeast (kinda poor flocculation) and adding first round of dry hops. (3:2:1 Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe) Beer spent 2 days at 55 then I pulled more yeast and any hops that had fallen and added another dry hop of the same quantity. Will spend 2 or 3 more days at 55 before gradually cooling and transferring.

The Alchemist dry hops at cold crash temperatures (39-42F) and recirculates the beer through a Grundy Tank full of hops in a sack of pantyhose.

Other Half dry hops at fermentation temps in the high 60s, low 70s. They don't recirculate.

As described above, many breweries are dry hopping in the ~55-60F range.

Many viable ways to dry hop.

 

[HopsAreGood]

I’m going to start using so4 more. If it’s good enough for treehouse and toppling Goliath than it’s good enough for me. I used it a few times a couple years ago and have since used all the usual suspects. I’m going to run it at 63-64 to hopefully avoid any weird tangy or bread like notes. I definitely like the idea of it fermenting fast and dropping like a complete brick without having to cool it, and then dry hopping, then cooling it once to get the hops and any remaining yeast to drop. I do have the ability to soft crash prior to dry hopping but I’m not sure if I’d even need to given its propensity for completely sticking to the bottom of the fermenter when finished.

 

[Clyde McCoy]

I’m going to start using so4 more. If it’s good enough for treehouse and toppling Goliath than it’s good enough for me. I used it a few times a couple years ago and have since used all the usual suspects. I’m going to run it at 63-64 to hopefully avoid any weird tangy or breads notes. I definitely like the idea of it fermenting fast and dropping like a complete brick without having to cool it, and then dry hopping, then cooling it once to get the hops and any remaining yeast to drop. I do have the ability to soft crash prior to dry hopping but I’m not sure if I’d even need to given its propensity for completely sticking to the bottom of the fermenter when finished.

S-04 and SO4 are your friends

 

[crusader1612]

S-04 and SO4 are your friends

How do we get it to behave? Whats the processes for keeping this yeast under control.

Th times i've used it, i've had issues basically. pretty much everytime, so i fel like im doing something wrong, cos others have had success.

 

[stickyfinger]

you can soft or cold crash of course. Either works. Cold is fast and thorough. I’ve had mixed results dry hopping at or below 60F so I prefer to just go back up to 70F. See what you prefer.

So you are crashing down to 32 and the warming back up to dry hop? I’ve never considered that.

 

[Dgallo]

I’ve been playing around with dryhop temps probably for the past 3 months and I don’t think I prefer sub 60*f dryhoping. They were smooth don’t get me wrong, but I’ve felt they were less potent than the beers I dryhop at 62-64*f. For reference, I am typically dryhoping with about 6-8 oz into 5.5-6gallon in the fermenter (will go up to 10 oz in the 9%+ abv range). I do see that the people who mention sub 60 temps are dryhoping at far higher rates than myself, so that could be a part of it but I can’t personally justify having to use more hops to dryhop cooler just to get the same potency I am getting at the low mid 60s

I do want to throw an idea out there; there is a huge difference between home brewing and commercial brewery, and that’s profitability and time is money. Maybe these breweries are dryhoping at their soft crashing temps so that they don’t have warm 10bbl + of beer 10-15 degrees to dryhop. That will take some time at that their volume. If they dryhop at the softcrash temp, they avoid that time plus the time and energy cost of cooling back over those 10-15 degrees when it’s time to full crash. So it’s certainly possible that price point is part of the driving factor for this process

 

[couchsending]

One benefit to dry hopping at lower temps is further reducing the likelihood of refermentation which could obviously have many ramifications on multiple aspects of the beer.

I don’t think that temp necessarily has and effect on the “potency” of the hop impact. It might take more time to get to a certain level but I do think that you can get different types of extraction at different temps. In these last few beers I haven’t noticed a dramatic difference in time it took to get to a rather “potent” level. I’m not sampling every 12 hours for obvious reasons but generally once after 48 hours and once after 4 days right before cooling. I’d just like to dispel the myth that you need higher temps to extract more “fruity” flavors/aromas. I don’t think that’s the case at all.

 

[HopsAreGood]

How do we get it to behave? Whats the processes for keeping this yeast under control.

Th times i've used it, i've had issues basically. pretty much everytime, so i fel like im doing something wrong, cos others have had success.

What kind of issues have you had?

 

[Dgallo]

One benefit to dry hopping at lower temps is further reducing the likelihood of refermentation which could obviously have many ramifications on multiple aspects of the beer.

Good point, I wasn’t thinking about it from a hop creep perspective

 

[couchsending]

I’ve been completely lost as to where in the hell all my hop aroma is going. Given I don’t have a conical, what would be in your opinion the best setup possible for making aroma heavy neipas and beers in general.

Im not sure actually. I think what @Dgallo uses might be a good option. I have tried to make very few hoppy beers in anything but a conical. I’m a big proponent of getting yeast out of the beer as soon as possible. It’s hard to do with anything but a conical.

I don’t know what your setup is. You’re kegging right?

I might try bagging some hops and putting them in a keg after you see visible signs of active fermentation and using fermentation to purge the keg. Figure out a way to prevent o2 ingress when soft crashing (balloon or whatever) then force transferring to the keg with the bagged hops. Being very very attentive to flushing all lines with Co2. You could either serve in that keg or transfer again if you’re really meticulous about purging everything insanely well.

 

[JohnConnor]

I honestly don’t think warming back up above 55/60 is really all that important.

Recent CB&B podcast with Dino from Vitamin Sea. Said they dry hop for 4 days at 55.

Shaun Lawson’s dry hop temp recommendations in the Sip and Double Sun recipes is 55-57.

Latest Curiosity from Treehouse speaks about cold dry hopping and conditioning.

I’ve had great success with Galaxy heavy beers as well as Mosaic heavy beers dry hopping sub 60 (usually around 58)

Got two beers going now. One will be kegged tomorrow. The other just got its second round of dry hops today. All dry hopping has been at 55-57*. They’re both tasting and smelling awesome. Both beers are very Mosaic centered and I’m getting zero of that weird Mosaic stank.

Pale ale with Mosaic and a touch of Amarillo was 36 hours at 55 before cropping yeast and adding dry hops. No rousing just leaving it. Started dropping temps after 4 days. Dumped a bunch of trub today. Will keg tomorrow AM. Been at 40-42 for around 48 hours.

Second beer is a double IPA. Spent 2 days at 55 before cropping yeast (kinda poor flocculation) and adding first round of dry hops. (3:2:1 Mosaic, Citra, Simcoe) Beer spent 2 days at 55 then I pulled more yeast and any hops that had fallen and added another dry hop of the same quantity. Will spend 2 or 3 more days at 55 before gradually cooling and transferring.

What's everyone's thoughts out rousing? I've been transferring beer and dry hopping in a keg with a floating dip tube. I've been turning the keg twice a day to keep hops in suspension. Jury is still out on whether or not it's worth doing. Is it more important for the big boys because of scale?

 

[secretlevel]

what are peoples thoughts on this?
Citra-Galaxy NEIPA: Bioconversion | The Mad Fermentationist - Homebrewing Blog

I have a friend who brews hazies pretty much religiously, but always uses expensive hops. He literally does a 200g addition spread out over the hopstand time to get a layering of hops and then dryhops a shitload more on day 1 day 3 and day 10.

but I wondered if i could emulate beers like his (they're very well made). but using cheaper alternatives such as nugget etc. plus here in NZ, we can get super cheap hops like moutere and rakau, which still have good aroma qualities for more than half the price of hops like citra etc.

Keen to try out mike's way of doing things, particularly if the decision is made to go pro at any point.

Bio-conversion would still be keen and using the citras mosaics, galaxies sauvins etc may be key.

the last question i had was the 15min addition is 1oz, whichseems high, would this be ok? i've always used lower bittering and more aroma hops in these beers, but essentially coppied my friend template using my own hops, and especially when it comes to kitchen sink beers

Great experiment by The Mad Fermentationist, this sums it up well: "[Cheaper hops beer] Falls a little short of full-on NEIPA, lacking that wonderful saturated juicy hop flavor. Although the fullness of the hop character has increased while sitting on the keg hops. Pineapple, orange candy, and dank. Slightly sharp bitterness, a bit lupulin bite in the throat."

To reiterate and tie this into your question, cheap hops don't have the same Alpha Acid content, nor do they have the same total oil content as the Citras and Galaxies. However, this doesn't mean that you can't use them to make a tasty beer. As a matter of fact, I've had great luck intermixing the traditional hops with a little bit of Citra and/or Mosaic. Just be sure to use more of the traditional hop so it's not offset by the high oil content of the "banger hops".

NZ Hops: man, I've always wanted to experiment more with these. So far I've used Waimea and Motueka, which have been phenomenal. Mix in with a couple of oz of Citra with those and you're in for a great beer. Are Galaxy and Vic Secret around you expensive? Those are just across the pond in AU. I've also heard great things about Riwaka, Rakau, and Belma but have yet to try them personally.

 

[optimal_pizza]

Just kicked a keg of a hazy pale ale using S33 (Azacca, Citra, Simcoe). It cleared a little but not much from first pour. I fermented at 63, wasn't trying to get anything remotely belgian out of it. I have another packet so I might try again but under pitch it and ferment a little warmer and see what happens. Solid yeast though.

 

[couchsending]

Just kicked a keg of a hazy pale ale using S33 (Azacca, Citra, Simcoe). It cleared a little but not much from first pour. I fermented at 63, wasn't trying to get anything remotely belgian out of it. I have another packet so I might try again but under pitch it and ferment a little warmer and see what happens. Solid yeast though.
View attachment 680987

It’s not POF+ so you shouldn’t get any phenols or Belgian character from it. It’s a weird yeast that doesn’t really attenuate from my research and from the data provided by fermentis. It’s their lowest attenuating yeast with an average attenuation of 68-72. It’s also one of p
their “fruitiest” yeast with Supposedly it’s the old “Edme” strain that used to come in crappy Homebrew kits a while back.

What attenuation did you get with it on its own?

 

[aaronm13]

This is my All Together clone kegged today. Very happy with results already. No to try and leave it alone for a week to condition up.

 

[lowtones84]

Being very very attentive to flushing all lines with Co2. You could either serve in that keg or transfer again if you’re really meticulous about purging everything insanely well.

How do folks go about purging lines? I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, large thread. I'm just getting capability of co2 transfers etc, but purging the lines effectively still eludes me. I already see a big improvement in stability, though.

 

[Dgallo]

How do folks go about purging lines? I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, large thread. I'm just getting capability of co2 transfers etc, but purging the lines effectively still eludes me. I already see a big improvement in stability, though.

Really depends on your set up. I use co2 from fermentation to purge my keg. Since my fermenter is balllock to balllock to my keg, that line gets purged during fermentation and is ready for fermenter to serving keg at transfer.

Another way to do it is have a already purged keg connected to your regulator and a bucket of sterilizer or water. Put the line in the bucket and connect one end to the a ball lock while under water. Then take that side out and attach it to the keg and let the gas run and then just barely take the other end out and connect the other balllock.

Im sure there are plenty of other ways people do it as well

 

[crusader1612]

What kind of issues have you had?

Tried it a few times, and got aceteldehyde, in one, then just unsettling off flavours, i couldn't pick out at the time, i realise this is potentially my issue, so im trying to get some idea of how people treat it differently in relation to temps and time and so on.

 

[crusader1612]

Great experiment by The Mad Fermentationist, this sums it up well: "[Cheaper hops beer] Falls a little short of full-on NEIPA, lacking that wonderful saturated juicy hop flavor. Although the fullness of the hop character has increased while sitting on the keg hops. Pineapple, orange candy, and dank. Slightly sharp bitterness, a bit lupulin bite in the throat."

To reiterate and tie this into your question, cheap hops don't have the same Alpha Acid content, nor do they have the same total oil content as the Citras and Galaxies. However, this doesn't mean that you can't use them to make a tasty beer. As a matter of fact, I've had great luck intermixing the traditional hops with a little bit of Citra and/or Mosaic. Just be sure to use more of the traditional hop so it's not offset by the high oil content of the "banger hops".

Yeah, I read that, but when he mentioned that halfway version where bio trans was done with the banger hops i figured it was worth a try. we hyave Southern Cross, Moutere & Rakau, which tend to be on the cheaper end of the scale, and with enough oils, that they suggest it can be used later in the boil and for aroma (ive been told sweaty pineapple pants for rakau - LOL).

NZ Hops: man, I've always wanted to experiment more with these. So far I've used Waimea and Motueka, which have been phenomenal. Mix in with a couple of oz of Citra with those and you're in for a great beer. Are Galaxy and Vic Secret around you expensive? Those are just across the pond in AU. I've also heard great things about Riwaka, Rakau, and Belma but have yet to try them personally.

Funnily enough, its harder to get Galaxy and Vic Secret than it is to get American hops. They're popular and expensive. Stones Enjoy by does a great mix of nelson sauvin and galaxy.
I use riwaka alot, its the shiz - use it in a pilsner and you're in for agood time.
If you haven't tried Nelson Sauvin, do a single hop NEIPA, you won't regret it.

 

[Dgallo]

Yeah, I read that, but when he mentioned that halfway version where bio trans was done with the banger hops i figured it was worth a try. we hyave Southern Cross, Moutere & Rakau, which tend to be on the cheaper end of the scale, and with enough oils, that they suggest it can be used later in the boil and for aroma (ive been told sweaty pineapple pants for rakau - LOL).



Funnily enough, its harder to get Galaxy and Vic Secret than it is to get American hops. They're popular and expensive. Stones Enjoy by does a great mix of nelson sauvin and galaxy.
I use riwaka alot, its the shiz - use it in a pilsner and you're in for agood time.
If you haven't tried Nelson Sauvin, do a single hop NEIPA, you won't regret it.

I actually recently took gold with my NZ Pilsner (Pilsner category - 21 entrees) that used both Nelson and Riwaka. It’s an amazing combo for sure!

 

[couchsending]

How do folks go about purging lines? I'm sorry if this has been discussed before, large thread. I'm just getting capability of co2 transfers etc, but purging the lines effectively still eludes me. I already see a big improvement in stability, though.

Not sure what your hooking up to where but for my setup I’ve got a liquid line that has a ball lock on one and and a 1.5” TC fitting on the other. After pushing Star San out of the receiving keg I give it like 30 minutes to an hour to let all the remaining foam hopefully congregate on the bottom of the keg. I then fill it fill at 15 psi. I attach the ball lock to the keg and let that 15 psi of Co2 purge the line and the TC fitting on the conical. When Co2 starts to slow down I lock the TC fitting then pull the PRV on the keg to release the remaining pressure. I also attach a blow off from the Gas post into a container of Star San. Then turn on the Co2 to the conical and open the butterfly valve on the racking arm.

So to sum up just use Co2 in the keg to purge the line when you’re connecting it to your fermenter.

 

[lowtones84]

My equipment is pretty basic. The only two lines I think I have to worry about are the line from stainless steel racking arm to liquid ball lock fitting for carboy to keg transfer and a very short length of tubing that I use as a keg jumper (liquid to liquid ball lock with 2 ft of tubing). I kind of use one keg as a "bright tank" with a cut dip tube and jump to a serving keg. Liquid (star san) purge all vessels, pushed with co2.

 

[kevink]

Depending on what I'm doing, I sometimes assemble sections of lines/hoses in a big pot under starsan so they're completely full and then blast them out with CO2 or beer if I'm transferring until beer comes out. You could do that for your fermenter>keg line. Fill the line, connect it to your fermenter, then press the valve inside the QD with a sanitized SS bolt or something similar until beer comes out. Then connect it to the corny.

If I had to disassemble on one of my gas systems for whatever reason (keezer or dedicated chamber CO2 setup), I just blast a healthy dose of CO2 through the line to purge the air out. It sort of depends on the exact situation and what type of fittings I'm dealing with.