New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[Noob_Brewer]

I currently use about a pound of hops, though I have to bag the dry hops (for my process), so I need to be on the high end for quantities. I go back and forth for the total quantities, though. On the one hand, there are brewers on this forum who make really good beer (I've had some) that use more like 12 ounces total (and even less).

On the other hand, I keep seeing homebrew recipes shared by top breweries that have 20+ ounces of hops for a 5 gallon batch. On the other other hand, I believe the research that suggests that dry hop extraction maxes out around 1.5 ounces per gallon or so. I have not really seen the same research for hot side, but it IS the case that most folks are putting more hops into the cold side than hot for this style...

As for hot side, there are certainly a lot of brewers and breweries that skip the boil completely and just add hops at flameout or a few minutes after -- and that is all. There is also research that suggests that some good citrus flavors can be extracted around 200. But of course, at those temps you also get more bitterness and lose some hop oils, so it doesn't make a ton of sense to me to add everything at those high temps, unless you are not adding much hops to the wp. But some people really aren't adding that much, and putting a ton into the cold side, which I do think is compelling.

Personally, currently, I think it makes sense to do a small bittering charge (.5 ounces) at 15 mins (or do a FWH), then another at 200, and then do a nice whirlpool at 175 for 30 minutes or so. I am not sure about doing one below that; I currently do add a small charge at 160, just to hedge my bets. At the end of the day, I feel like the whirlpool is very important for both flavor and aroma, but I am still not sure what that means for ratios of hot side to cold side. 25-75? 40-60? I'm currently going with 40-60.

For cold side, I currently believe in doing a small dry hop charge (almost always Citra) toward the end of fermentation (at about 1.030, which is usually Day 3.5). Then doing a big one 48 hours before bottling. I think Janish's recent article in favor of cold and short is compelling, so I did my most recent final DH at 58 degrees for 48 hours.

My goal, of course, is maximum aroma/flavor and minimum hop burn. My latest is just one week old, but already drinking a lot better than my previous ones. So I think the short and cold final dry hop strategy seems to be a winner in my book...

Good stuff SRJ! Thanks for posting. Just for some context so I know where you are coming from, I have a couple questions. By one "large dose 48hrs before bottling" what is your quantity of the dose and batch size in your fermenter when you add this charge? Also, Im assuming you have dry hopped warmer too (65 degrees?). Just curious on what your own sensory analysis is comparing the warm vs cold dry hop temps. Ive read Janish's book several times now making the case for short cold dry hopping, but others (I think @day_trippr and @jturman35) reported the short cold method being described as more muted flavor/aroma compared to warmer temps. SO curious on what you have perceived as the differences too. Thanks!

EDIT: FYI, I just kegged my first beer I ever brewed, and I double dry hopped warm (3oz at each dry hop @ 68 degrees) after soft crashing to 57 degrees with no active fermentation dry hopping. Additionally, I used 0.5oz FWH and then 6 ounces total (3 @ 5 minutes left in boil and 3oz in whirlpool). So I used 12.5oz total. The 6oz in fermenter had about 5.75gallons of wort in the fermonster so thats about just over 1.0oz per gallon for me. Im at day 3 of keg carbing. Aroma is solid, flavor is solid too. I'll see how this pans out after about another week for the beer to carb and condition and report back.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Lately I have been working to reduce my total dry hop dosages in order to achieve a more refined aroma, reduce bright tank time and build recipes that will be economically viable on a commercial scale.
One thing that I dont see discussed in this thread often is increased utilization via rousing.
My question is, how many of you rouse your dryhop additions, at what frequency and what methods?
I saw that @Dgallo mentioned aggregation a few posts back, is this what you meant?
I have been rousing with c02 but it seems to make my dryhops fall out of suspension very quickly and has produced mixed results.

 

[SRJHops]

Good stuff SRJ! Thanks for posting. Just for some context so I know where you are coming from, I have a couple questions. By one "large dose 48hrs before bottling" what is your quantity of the dose and batch size in your fermenter when you add this charge? Also, Im assuming you have dry hopped warmer too (65 degrees?). Just curious on what your own sensory analysis is comparing the warm vs cold dry hop temps. Ive read Janish's book several times now making the case for short cold dry hopping, but others (I think @day_trippr and @jturman35) reported the short cold method being described as more muted flavor/aroma compared to warmer temps. SO curious on what you have perceived as the differences too. Thanks!

EDIT: FYI, I just kegged my first beer I ever brewed, and I double dry hopped warm (3oz at each dry hop @ 68 degrees) after soft crashing to 57 degrees with no active fermentation dry hopping. Additionally, I used 0.5oz FWH and then 6 ounces total (3 @ 5 minutes left in boil and 3oz in whirlpool). So I used 12.5oz total. The 6oz in fermenter had about 5.75gallons of wort in the fermonster so thats about just over 1.0oz per gallon for me. Im at day 3 of keg carbing. Aroma is solid, flavor is solid too. I'll see how this pans out after about another week for the beer to carb and condition and report back.

Kudos on beer #1! Sounds like it went very well.

I used 15 ounces in my latest. 5 gallons. Here is the entire schedule:

.5 Columbus @ 15 mins
.5 Columbus, 1 oz Citra, 1 oz Mosaic, 1 oz Strata @ 200 for 15 mins
1 oz Citra, 2 oz Strata @ 175 for 30 mins
1 oz Strata @ 160 for 15 mins
1 oz Citra, 1 oz Strata at 1.030 SG (was Day 3.5) @ 68 degrees
1 oz Citra, 1 oz Mosaic, 3 oz Strata @ Day 12 @ 58 degrees (48 hours before bottling)

So, I dry hopped during active, warm, and also after fermentation, cold. I have also dry hopped both times warm. And I have skipped the fermentation addition, which I felt harmed the flavor of the beer, so I went back to that, but later in the fermentation.

I am not 100% firm on the processes, since there are so many variables (kinds of hops, amounts, methods, temps, etc). I WILL say that I have been trying to tamp down the hop burn, which I feel comes from dry hopping excessively during active, as well as dry hopping warm. So that is why I currently believe a small dh during active makes sense, followed by a soft crash and final dh cold.

As noted, there are so many variables and approaches. It makes sense to me that you would get higher extraction at warmer temps, but again, the newer research suggests that extraction happens quite quickly and works at lower temps. So if you are trying to avoid hop burn, it makes sense to me to dh colder.

I would suggest that you see what kind of hop burn/astringency you are getting and work from there... There is a balance somewhere that most of us are seeking, between maximizing hop flavor and minimizing hop burn...

 

[jturman35]

And by muted, I mean no aroma whatsoever. I did 6oz @ 63 deg for about 36 hrs. It has that beer smell if you know what I mean. Almost like a blonde ale beer aroma, hard to pick up any hops. On the other hand the flavor/bitterness is spot on, but aroma is seriously lacking.

I have added hops in the end of boil that came out less bitter than an all whirlpool addition. I assume the type of hops plays a big role in how much bitterness comes out. My latest beer had an ounce of Simcoe at like 20 mins and it’s less bitter than all whirlpool Citra.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

And by muted, I mean no aroma whatsoever. I did 6oz @ 63 deg for about 36 hrs. It has that beer smell if you know what I mean. Almost like a blonde ale beer aroma, hard to pick up any hops. On the other hand the flavor/bitterness is spot on, but aroma is seriously lacking.

I have added hops in the end of boil that came out less bitter than an all whirlpool addition. I assume the type of hops plays a big role in how much bitterness comes out. My latest beer had an ounce of Simcoe at like 20 mins and it’s less bitter than all whirlpool Citra.

Wow I didn’t realize you were in the low 60s still when you did this short 36hr charge. My first beer I dryhopped at 68 and the instant the hops hit the beer they swelled up quickly to form a carpet of hops across the top. Aroma afterwards was good. Amazing how much a 5degree difference makes but I also had beer on the hops for 72hrs so that’s playing into this too. Was thinking of dryhopping lower temp for this next homebrew but now I’m questioning it.

 

[Noob_Brewer]

Lately I have been working to reduce my total dry hop dosages in order to achieve a more refined aroma, reduce bright tank time and build recipes that will be economically viable on a commercial scale.
One thing that I dont see discussed in this thread often is increased utilization via rousing.
My question is, how many of you rouse your dryhop additions, at what frequency and what methods?
I saw that @Dgallo mentioned aggregation a few posts back, is this what you meant?
I have been rousing with c02 but it seems to make my dryhops fall out of suspension very quickly and has produced mixed results.

Other than hitting CO2 before, during, and after dryhopping, I didn’t purposefully rouse at dedicated times. However, it was fun watching it be aroused by CO2. I also noticed during second dry hop that hops from first charge were slowly falling out of suspension too but since my temps were warm (68) I think I got good extraction though.

 

[Dgallo]

Lately I have been working to reduce my total dry hop dosages in order to achieve a more refined aroma, reduce bright tank time and build recipes that will be economically viable on a commercial scale.
One thing that I dont see discussed in this thread often is increased utilization via rousing.
My question is, how many of you rouse your dryhop additions, at what frequency and what methods?
I saw that @Dgallo mentioned aggregation a few posts back, is this what you meant?
I have been rousing with c02 but it seems to make my dryhops fall out of suspension very quickly and has produced mixed results.

Yes. That’s What I meant. I do a dbl dryhop so I’ll lightly rock the fermenter when I see too much hop material above the beer. If it’s not touching the beer nothing is getting extracted. Sometimes I have to do it s few times and other tines not st all

 

[aaronm13]

This is my lastest attempt. A Strata and Citra combination. First time doing no dry hops till after fermentation has finished and also added a whirlfloc tablet. So still very hazy. I tried this time with a lower dry hop amount, around 12oz usually go around 16-18oz. To be honest I do notice the difference but wanted to see for myself. Think next time I will go back to my normal volume of hops. In the keg about 2.5 weeks and really starting to pop.

 

[wepeeler]

Kudos on beer #1! Sounds like it went very well.

I used 15 ounces in my latest. 5 gallons. Here is the entire schedule:

.5 Columbus @ 15 mins
.5 Columbus, 1 oz Citra, 1 oz Mosaic, 1 oz Strata @ 200 for 15 mins
1 oz Citra, 2 oz Strata @ 175 for 30 mins
1 oz Strata @ 160 for 15 mins
1 oz Citra, 1 oz Strata at 1.030 SG (was Day 3.5) @ 68 degrees
1 oz Citra, 1 oz Mosaic, 3 oz Strata @ Day 12 @ 58 degrees (48 hours before bottling)

So, I dry hopped during active, warm, and also after fermentation, cold. I have also dry hopped both times warm. And I have skipped the fermentation addition, which I felt harmed the flavor of the beer, so I went back to that, but later in the fermentation.

I am not 100% firm on the processes, since there are so many variables (kinds of hops, amounts, methods, temps, etc). I WILL say that I have been trying to tamp down the hop burn, which I feel comes from dry hopping excessively during active, as well as dry hopping warm. So that is why I currently believe a small dh during active makes sense, followed by a soft crash and final dh cold.

As noted, there are so many variables and approaches. It makes sense to me that you would get higher extraction at warmer temps, but again, the newer research suggests that extraction happens quite quickly and works at lower temps. So if you are trying to avoid hop burn, it makes sense to me to dh colder.

I would suggest that you see what kind of hop burn/astringency you are getting and work from there... There is a balance somewhere that most of us are seeking, between maximizing hop flavor and minimizing hop burn...

Just some food for thought: I was getting crazy hop burn with most of my neipas. I was adding very little hops during the boil, and added a huge charge at flameout. We would cool as fast as we could, but this was before getting an immersion chiller. Sometimes it would take 30-40 min. Finally got my hands on a Hydra IC, researched and read every article and picked every brewer's brain I could and decided to chill to 160 or so before adding my whirlpool addition. Been adding 5-6 oz at 160, keep the temp steady and whirlpool for 30 min. I'm still an advocate of dry hopping during active fermentation (both for the biotransformation and stable haze properties). I don't cold crash before my second dry hop either. I usually shoot for 24-36 hours of dry hopping at 60, then keg. Absolutely zero hop burn since the change (whirlpool temp and length). Grain to glass in 2 weeks. No hop burn at all. The beer peaks around week 4, but is crushable as soon as it's carbed.

 

[SRJHops]

Just some food for thought: I was getting crazy hop burn with most of my neipas. I was adding very little hops during the boil, and added a huge charge at flameout. We would cool as fast as we could, but this was before getting an immersion chiller. Sometimes it would take 30-40 min. Finally got my hands on a Hydra IC, researched and read every article and picked every brewer's brain I could and decided to chill to 160 or so before adding my whirlpool addition. Been adding 5-6 oz at 160, keep the temp steady and whirlpool for 30 min. I'm still an advocate of dry hopping during active fermentation (both for the biotransformation and stable haze properties). I don't cold crash before my second dry hop either. I usually shoot for 24-36 hours of dry hopping at 60, then keg. Absolutely zero hop burn since the change (whirlpool temp and length). Grain to glass in 2 weeks. No hop burn at all. The beer peaks around week 4, but is crushable as soon as it's carbed.

Seems pretty close to my process, so good to hear. I too have found that cold dry hopping seems to have created a beer that is ready to drink a lot sooner. Of course, the main goal is aroma and flavor, so that is the remaining question for me. When will this cold dry-hopped beer peak? Will it peak at 1 or 2 weeks, compared to my earlier beers (dry-hopped warm) that peaked at 3-4 weeks? And which will taste best overall, or will both the same? Right now I am giving the nod to the cold dry-hopped beer, but it could be other variables -- including that I used Strata for the first time!

 

[wepeeler]

Seems pretty close to my process, so good to hear. I too have found that cold dry hopping seems to have created a beer that is ready to drink a lot sooner. Of course, the main goal is aroma and flavor, so that is the remaining question for me. When will this cold dry-hopped beer peak? Will it peak at 1 or 2 weeks, compared to my earlier beers (dry-hopped warm) that peaked at 3-4 weeks? And which will taste best overall, or will both the same? Right now I am giving the nod to the cold dry-hopped beer, but it could be other variables -- including that I used Strata for the first time!

Sounds good man! Keep us posted. I'm forever learning.

 

[jturman35]

I may have already asked this somewhere but are you guys whirlpooling at a set temp for 30-40mins? I have the ability to whirlpool at any temp and hold it as I’m electric. I have always chilled the wort to around 180-160 and just let it slowly fall from there. Maybe this is where I could improve my beers going forward by paying more attention to how slow/fast I let the temp drop.

 

[SRJHops]

I may have already asked this somewhere but are you guys whirlpooling at a set temp for 30-40mins? I have the ability to whirlpool at any temp and hold it as I’m electric. I have always chilled the wort to around 180-160 and just let it slowly fall from there. Maybe this is where I could improve my beers going forward by paying more attention to how slow/fast I let the temp drop.

Try holding it at 175 for 30 and see what you think...

 

[marchuk96]

I may have already asked this somewhere but are you guys whirlpooling at a set temp for 30-40mins? I have the ability to whirlpool at any temp and hold it as I’m electric. I have always chilled the wort to around 180-160 and just let it slowly fall from there. Maybe this is where I could improve my beers going forward by paying more attention to how slow/fast I let the temp drop.

I typically do 155/150 whirlpool with the lid on for an hour with anywhere from 4-6 oz of hops...no temp control just start it and let it do its thing till an hour is up and then chill as quick as possible...I periodically stir the crap out of it during that hour as well for some added contact with the wort...I have been pretty happy with this method and yielded some great results[emoji482]

 

[Dgallo]

I may have already asked this somewhere but are you guys whirlpooling at a set temp for 30-40mins? I have the ability to whirlpool at any temp and hold it as I’m electric. I have always chilled the wort to around 180-160 and just let it slowly fall from there. Maybe this is where I could improve my beers going forward by paying more attention to how slow/fast I let the temp drop.

I go even lower. I hold at 150 for 40 min. I know some use their whirlpool for ibus so they aim higher but I figure if you want ibus add a small dose of magnum at 60 and maybe a 10-20% in boil or flame out and then all other additions should be used for flavor/aroma. Some compounds even denature at 150 so the lower the better

 

[NickC]

I’ve been WPing @ 160 for 30 min. The last 3 batches I’ve used about 5-6oz Mosaic whole cone and squeezed every last drop of wort out of the cones when transferring to fermenter. Anyone have any experience doing something similar? Seems to have been working great. No off flavors, possibly enhanced flavor.

I may have already asked this somewhere but are you guys whirlpooling at a set temp for 30-40mins? I have the ability to whirlpool at any temp and hold it as I’m electric. I have always chilled the wort to around 180-160 and just let it slowly fall from there. Maybe this is where I could improve my beers going forward by paying more attention to how slow/fast I let the temp drop.

 

[NickC]

And by muted, I mean no aroma whatsoever. I did 6oz @ 63 deg for about 36 hrs. It has that beer smell if you know what I mean. Almost like a blonde ale beer aroma, hard to pick up any hops. On the other hand the flavor/bitterness is spot on, but aroma is seriously lacking.

I have added hops in the end of boil that came out less bitter than an all whirlpool addition. I assume the type of hops plays a big role in how much bitterness comes out. My latest beer had an ounce of Simcoe at like 20 mins and it’s less bitter than all whirlpool Citra.

What’s your process look like from the time you drop the DH? I’ve found containing that aroma is key. Don’t pull PRV, don’t transfer to a non-purged keg, etc.

 

[jturman35]

I fill all kegs with starsan and purge with co2. Always perform closed transfer with keg co2 vented to bucket of starsan. The only difference between this batch and the last is the type of hops,I tried soft crashing to drop the yeast and I dry hopped for 36hrs.

I’m seriously considering brewing the exact same beer with same hops, but go back to dry hopping at day 3/day 12/keg hops. I have a 2 month old NEIPA that was hopped and it’s probably better than 75% of most commercial examples.

I will say the soft crash and short 36hr hop at 60deg came out with zero hop bite. Can’t say that for the other Citra beer I did.

How much of the hot side hops add aroma verses the dry hop? I’d be curious to know the answer to that question. I may have done to short of a whirlpool and let the temp drop to fast while whirlpooling.

 

[nick sekerak]

Check this video i came across of a neat looking hop doser.



Does anyone see any design flaws\issues with it? I am thinking about building one. Also trying to figure out a parts list to make this thing.

 

[wepeeler]

I’ve been WPing @ 160 for 30 min. The last 3 batches I’ve used about 5-6oz Mosaic whole cone and squeezed every last drop of wort out of the cones when transferring to fermenter. Anyone have any experience doing something similar? Seems to have been working great. No off flavors, possibly enhanced flavor.

Same. 160 for 30 minutes. Haven't tried 150, but I've been having great results at 160. Great flavor, lasting aroma, no hop burn.

 

[Loud Brewing]

Ditto. I WP @160f for 30min with the pump on, then shut off pump and let the hop bed settle in the middle of the kettle for about 10min. Like dgallo I use a small amount of magnum in the boil.

 

[nick sekerak]

I typically use 11 oz of hops in my whirlpool and have done some testing. Using the same DH schedule to see what WP times & temps are better and for me, here is what worked best so far based on two different variations of time & temp using the same amount of hops.

WP addition #1: 3 oz @ 170*F for 20 min
WP addition #2: 5 oz @ 160*F for 20 min
WP addition #3: 3 oz @ 140*F for 20 min

I throw all the hops in loose and recirculate using WP arm and pump and set my PID to hold each temp the entire length of time for each step. Then chill down with IC to the next temp. I use a big cooler of ice water to run through the IC, it drops temps down super quick. I do not remove the hops from any previous steps before starting the next step, so essentially at the start of step #3 my kettle has 11 oz whirlpooling around in it.

I made this schedule up to try and layer the flavor/aroma profiles of the hops. I use the same hop combination & ration in each step to bring out different flavor compounds that the different temps provide.

My other schedule was three steps at 185, 160 & 150*F using the same times per step, this was not as good i feel as 170/160/140*F.

 

[jturman35]

5 gallon batch? What are you coming up with for IBU’s? That’s more hops than I use in my entire beer.

 

[nick sekerak]

it is 8 gal in my FV

never calc'd the ibu's

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I just tapped a hazy I dry hopped at 58 for 2 days then kegged. It has nice flavor and aroma, not muted at all compared to my previous batches. I had 2 oz of vic secret in the dry hop and was wondering if it would take awhile to be drinkable like I've seen other people report but at 9 days in the keg when I tapped it tasted good, no harshness or astringency.

 

[wepeeler]

it is 8 gal in my FV

never calc'd the ibu's

I don't want to say 11 oz in the whirpool is overkill, but all the evidence I've read suggests just that. There has to be a ceiling at which flavor/aroma/oil extraction occurs and then you're just wasting hops (and money and beer). Have you tried keeping the ratios the same and just lowering the dosage? I hate to sound negative, but 5-6 extra ounces of hops brings the cost of the beer up significantly.

 

[Dgallo]

I just tapped a hazy I dry hopped at 58 for 2 days then kegged. It has nice flavor and aroma, not muted at all compared to my previous batches. I had 2 oz of vic secret in the dry hop and was wondering if it would take awhile to be drinkable like I've seen other people report but at 9 days in the keg when I tapped it tasted good, no harshness or astringency.

I’m with you. I Dryhopped with 6 oz of Nz hops in an 8oz dry hop for 72 hours and not a touch of hop burn. I’m convinced that hop burn is Due to dryhoping during active fermentation. Since I’ve stopped doing it I’ve yet to experience it.

 

[wepeeler]

I’m with you. I Dryhopped with 6 oz of Nz hops in an 8oz dry hop for 72 hours and not a touch of hop burn. I’m convinced that hop burn is Due to dryhoping during active fermentation. Since I’ve stopped doing it I’ve yet to experience it.

I dry hop all my neipas during fermentation, and I get zero hop burn. Wonder if it has to do with certain hop varieties (ie higher oil content hops ie Galaxy)? For me, my hop burn went away when I lowered my whirlpool temp and increased the amount of whirlpool time. I'm whirlpooling at 160 now instead of 180. Too many damn variables...

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I think there's definitely certain varieties that are more prone, like the southern hemisphere stuff. More often than not when I try a commercial beer that's overly astringent it has galaxy in it. I don't think it's the oils though, I think it's the polyphenols. That's one part of the cool/fast dry hopping that seems interesting. Supposedly hop oils are extracted faster than polyphenols.

 

[Dgallo]

This is my lastest attempt. A Strata and Citra combination. First time doing no dry hops till after fermentation has finished and also added a whirlfloc tablet. So still very hazy. I tried this time with a lower dry hop amount, around 12oz usually go around 16-18oz. To be honest I do notice the difference but wanted to see for myself. Think next time I will go back to my normal volume of hops. In the keg about 2.5 weeks and really starting to pop.

So did you cut those hops completely out of your recipe or did you shift them hotside. The reason I ask is because if you just cut them out, then you certainly will notice a different in the overall flavor since youre Cutting 6 oz of hops from your recipe.

 

[Genuine]

I've been super happy with the results of zero hops in the boil and then 180 Degree or under whirlpool for 30 min with 7oz total (usually I'll do 2oz each of Citra, Mosiac and Amarillo and then one ounce of Centennial). Then 6oz in the dry hop. I like a well rounded NEIPA (fruity high notes, great aroma with some dank low notes to bring everything together.)

 

[Andre3000]

Can anyone explain what the heck is going on here. I've got two almost identical recipes, one stayed hazy till the end, the other is clearing up after just over a few weeks.

Batch one: stayed hazy till the keg kicked at least 5-6 weeks.
76% 2-row
10% White wheat
10% Oat malt
3% Honey malt
WP 4:2:2 Idaho 7, Citra, Mosaic, 20 min @ 190F and below.
DH: one "biotransform" at day 3, one at day 9 after soft crash: 1.5:1.5:.75 Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, both charges.
1st gen A38 Juice

Batch two: clearing up now and it's day 27.
80% 2-row
8% White wheat
8% Oat malt
4% Golden naked oats
WP 2:4 Idaho 7, Mosaic, 20 min @ 180F and below.
DH: one massive after soft crashing 2:4:6 Galaxy,Mosaic,Citra
2nd gen A38 Juice

What gives? Grain bills almost identical. My process and additions, pH, are pretty close. The only thing I can think of is it had to do something with the way the beers were dry hopped? Maybe the timing and even more hops = less hazy? Do subsequent generations of A38 become more flocculant? Cheers.

 

[nick sekerak]

I don't want to say 11 oz in the whirpool is overkill, but all the evidence I've read suggests just that. There has to be a ceiling at which flavor/aroma/oil extraction occurs and then you're just wasting hops (and money and beer). Have you tried keeping the ratios the same and just lowering the dosage? I hate to sound negative, but 5-6 extra ounces of hops brings the cost of the beer up significantly.

What is the ceiling for WP hopping rates? Are you suggesting more like 0.75 oz of hop per gallon of wort in the WP?

 

[centrical]

Can anyone explain what the heck is going on here. I've got two almost identical recipes, one stayed hazy till the end, the other is clearing up after just over a few weeks.

Batch one: stayed hazy till the keg kicked at least 5-6 weeks.
76% 2-row
10% White wheat
10% Oat malt
3% Honey malt
WP 4:2:2 Idaho 7, Citra, Mosaic, 20 min @ 190F and below.
DH: one "biotransform" at day 3, one at day 9 after soft crash: 1.5:1.5:.75 Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, both charges.
1st gen A38 Juice

Batch two: clearing up now and it's day 27.
80% 2-row
8% White wheat
8% Oat malt
4% Golden naked oats
WP 2:4 Idaho 7, Mosaic, 20 min @ 180F and below.
DH: one massive after soft crashing 2:4:6 Galaxy,Mosaic,Citra
2nd gen A38 Juice

What gives? Grain bills almost identical. My process and additions, pH, are pretty close. The only thing I can think of is it had to do something with the way the beers were dry hopped? Maybe the timing and even more hops = less hazy? Do subsequent generations of A38 become more flocculant? Cheers.

1st gen vs 2nd gen - that's what I'd bet. The haze is pretty much a result of the right yeast with a big dry hop. If you get a bad yeast harvest then it may not work. That said, I've had beers clear even when I used a new lab pitch. could be Ferm temp, PH.. who knows.

How did you harvest the yeast?

 

[VirginiaHops1]

The only time I've had heavily dry hopped beers clear up are the two occasions I transferred onto a full yeast cake(gen3 of A04 Barbarian). In other words, a massive overpitch

 

[wepeeler]

Can anyone explain what the heck is going on here. I've got two almost identical recipes, one stayed hazy till the end, the other is clearing up after just over a few weeks.

Batch one: stayed hazy till the keg kicked at least 5-6 weeks.
76% 2-row
10% White wheat
10% Oat malt
3% Honey malt
WP 4:2:2 Idaho 7, Citra, Mosaic, 20 min @ 190F and below.
DH: one "biotransform" at day 3, one at day 9 after soft crash: 1.5:1.5:.75 Citra, Mosaic, Galaxy, both charges.
1st gen A38 Juice

Batch two: clearing up now and it's day 27.
80% 2-row
8% White wheat
8% Oat malt
4% Golden naked oats
WP 2:4 Idaho 7, Mosaic, 20 min @ 180F and below.
DH: one massive after soft crashing 2:4:6 Galaxy,Mosaic,Citra
2nd gen A38 Juice

What gives? Grain bills almost identical. My process and additions, pH, are pretty close. The only thing I can think of is it had to do something with the way the beers were dry hopped? Maybe the timing and even more hops = less hazy? Do subsequent generations of A38 become more flocculant? Cheers.

I'm guessing it has more to do with the dry hop. Most literature I've read says that dry hopping during fermentation can lead to a more stable haze. The yeast interaction binds certain molecules together, resulting in a stable, lasting haze. You crashed the 2nd beer before dry hopping, which means the yeast was out of suspension.

What is the ceiling for WP hopping rates? Are you suggesting more like 0.75 oz of hop per gallon of wort in the WP?

I don't know. I just figure there has to be one. What size batches? I'm currently making 11 gallon neipas, and I feel like even I'm pushing the limits by using 5-6 oz in the boil, 6 oz WP and another 10-12 oz DH.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I'm guessing it has more to do with the dry hop. Most literature I've read says that dry hopping during fermentation can lead to a more stable haze. The yeast interaction binds certain molecules together, resulting in a stable, lasting haze. You crashed the 2nd beer before dry hopping, which means the yeast was out of suspension.

It seems to me that intuitively NOT getting the yeast out of suspension would result in a less stable haze. Not the other way around. If you don't crash it out before dry hop it will flocc out hard in your keg sitting at 35 degrees, and probably take stuff with it. I hard crash most of my heavily dry hopped beers before dry hop including the one attached. The keg on that one kicked around day 27-28 but it remained as hazy as the picture the entire time.

 

[aaronm13]

So did you cut those hops completely out of your recipe or did you shift them hotside. The reason I ask is because if you just cut them out, then you certainly will notice a different in the overall flavor since youre Cutting 6 oz of hops from your recipe.

Yes, I completely cut the additional 6oz that I usually go with. This was kinda an experiment to test the Tom Shellhammer 8g/L theory. Id never go that low so I went with around 15g/L just to see if I was wasting additional hops all along. I don't think I was and will return to my normal 20-22g/L dosage.

Don't get me wrong I'm very happy with this beer but do feel I'm lacking something flavor wise. Aroma is incredible, the smell hits you as soon as you start pouring.

I think I'm going to start looking into layering my whirlpool hops at different temperatures. I usually do around 4.5oz at 180F for 30 minutes. So might increase hop amount at lower temps.

 

[SRJHops]

What is the ceiling for WP hopping rates? Are you suggesting more like 0.75 oz of hop per gallon of wort in the WP?

That's a great question... If anyone has some research on that I would love to see it.

What is the difference in total extraction rates for hops in the wp vs dh? Is it the same, but just a ton faster in the wp?

For dry hopping, Shellhammer (https://patspints.com/2019/01/16/the-surprising-science-of-dry-hopping-lessons-from-tom-shellhammer/) has the study with Cascade that says that using more than 1.1 ounce per gallon is wasting hops and can lead to herbal or tea aromas. People often wonder if that applies to other hops, which I think is a reasonable question.

I have been using 1.5 - 2 ounces per gallon in the dh for 5-gallon batches. But I keep seeing homebrew recipes from commercial brewers that recommend twice that, so it's far from settled in my mind. Still, I think 8 ounces seems about right for the dh, though I use a bit more since they are bagged. There's a Brulosophy study that says bagging does not change perception of the final beer that much, but still....

Most everyone agrees that more hops should be used in the dh than the wp. Not sure of the ratios. But if you go with 1.5 per gallon in the dh, it would make good sense to go .075 or 1 ounce per gallon in the wp. Still, I would love to see a Shellhammer study on the maximum hot side amounts before it becomes wasteful...

 

[wepeeler]

It seems to me that intuitively NOT getting the yeast out of suspension would result in a less stable haze. Not the other way around. If you don't crash it out before dry hop it will flocc out hard in your keg sitting at 35 degrees, and probably take stuff with it. I hard crash most of my heavily dry hopped beers before dry hop including the one attached. The keg on that one kicked around day 27-28 but it remained as hazy as the picture the entire time.

I get what you're saying. I know it sounds backwards, but stable haze can be created by dry hopping during fermentation. The yeast helps bind the available proteins with extracted polyphenols, creating a permanent, stable haze.

Here's an excerpt from an article by Scott Janish:

Early Dry Hopping (http://scottjanish.com/researching-new-england-ipa-neipa-haze/)
A common practice when brewing NEIPAs is to dry hop early into fermentation (sometimes as early as brew day) to encourage a process called bioflavoring, which is essentially the interaction between the active fermenting yeast and hop compounds. I’ll sidestep the research on bioflavoring for now, but this early dry hopping may be important as it relates to the protein/polyphenol reaction leading to haze. A study that looked at how the protein content in beer changes during active fermentation examined two different strains (WLP001 and KVL011). They found that with both strains, the protein content decreased during fermentation. Likely either degraded proteolytically by yeast or precipitating out with the yeast slurry. Specifically, WLP001 had a decrease of 16% and KVL001 decreased 42%.6

I wonder then if dry hopping early into fermentation is creating a situation where brewers are exposing the extracted polyphenols from the hops to a higher amount of available active proteins in the wort, essentially increasing this polyphenol and protein environment leading permanent haze. It’s also interesting to think that as the experiment above showed, different strains may be leaving more proteins in the finished beer than others. I’m curious if the same study was done with the common NEIPA strains if fewer proteins would be degraded during fermentation by the yeast, which would enhance this protein/polyphenol theory. I wonder too if more proteins are left in the finished beer if this would also play a role in the full mouthfeel of the style. As a side note, I don’t think the mouthfeel is the result purely of dextrins, which I concluded in a recent article.