New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA

[VirginiaHops1]

I listened to Episode 75 of craft beer and brewing featuring Odd13 Brewing. Recommend a listen if you haven't already: https://beerandbrewing.com/podcast-episode-75-odd13/

Some interesting stuff to unpack. One, he describes bio transformation having a "more rounded" hop flabor vs traditional having a more direct flavor expression of the individual hops. Since I've brewed this style, I always thought the secret was in the biotransformation. Going to try traditional dry hop. I know this has been discussed here.

Another thing is with most of their beers they drop yeast before they dry hop at terminal FG. Have any of you tried dry hopping off yeast and seen a significant difference? I think I'm going to try it. It should be relatively easy with my keg fermenters to keep all oxygen out while transferring it off the yeast. There will be a hit to efficiency, but if it's worth it, it's worth it.

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed in this thread but yeah several people have touted crashing out the yeast and then dry hopping. I previously never cold crashed because of O2 concerns but I started keg fermenting about 5-6 batches ago and have done it that way most of my keg batches and my flavor/aroma seems to pop a lot more than before. I'm actually crashing a batch right now that I'll transfer tonight into a purged keg already loaded with dry hops.

 

[marchuk96]

I listened to Episode 75 of craft beer and brewing featuring Odd13 Brewing. Recommend a listen if you haven't already: https://beerandbrewing.com/podcast-episode-75-odd13/

Some interesting stuff to unpack. One, he describes bio transformation having a "more rounded" hop flabor vs traditional having a more direct flavor expression of the individual hops. Since I've brewed this style, I always thought the secret was in the biotransformation. Going to try traditional dry hop. I know this has been discussed here.

Another thing is with most of their beers they drop yeast before they dry hop at terminal FG. Have any of you tried dry hopping off yeast and seen a significant difference? I think I'm going to try it. It should be relatively easy with my keg fermenters to keep all oxygen out while transferring it off the yeast. There will be a hit to efficiency, but if it's worth it, it's worth it.

I haven't really used the bio dry hop in a while...I never really got that much more out of it...i actually prefer that fresh out of the bag hop aroma personally...biotransformation hopping is exactly that ...changing one aroma or flavor into another...hence the correlation between a more rounded aroma and flavor as opposed to that direct right out the bag expression.. I have yet to try the dry hop after dropping yeast(want to) but have seen many on here swear by this technique...it certainly makes sense and if it increases that pop on the hop then I'm all about it...I don't think you would loose any thing as far as efficiency goes...although your dropping yeast...there should be enough in solution to finish the job but also limit that potential loss to hop oils dropping with all the yeast...it may just take a bit longer...if thats what u mean by loss in efficency...and if you are going for the typical dry hop then just allow your beer to hit final gravity before dumping your yeast...then proceed with the dry hop as usual

 

[Andre3000]

I'm pretty sure this has been discussed in this thread but yeah several people have touted crashing out the yeast and then dry hopping. I previously never cold crashed because of O2 concerns but I started keg fermenting about 5-6 batches ago and have done it that way most of my keg batches and my flavor/aroma seems to pop a lot more than before. I'm actually crashing a batch right now that I'll transfer tonight into a purged keg already loaded with dry hops.

I'm not talking about crashing the yeast. I'm talking about fulling transferring the beer off the yeast prior to DH.

I haven't really used the bio dry hop in a while...I never really got that much more out of it...i actually prefer that fresh out of the bag hop aroma personally...biotransformation hopping is exactly that ...changing one aroma or flavor into another...hence the correlation between a more rounded aroma and flavor as opposed to that direct right out the bag expression.. I have yet to try the dry hop after dropping yeast(want to) but have seen many on here swear by this technique...it certainly makes sense and if it increases that pop on the hop then I'm all about it...I don't think you would loose any thing as far as efficiency goes...although your dropping yeast...there should be enough in solution to finish the job but also limit that potential loss to hop oils dropping with all the yeast...it may just take a bit longer...if thats what u mean by loss in efficency...and if you are going for the typical dry hop then just allow your beer to hit final gravity before dumping your yeast...then proceed with the dry hop as usual

I'm using cornys with the clear beer floating dip tube to ferment in. They leave a bit at the bottom. That, combined with the fact that there's always liquid entrained in the trub / hops and that I'll be doing two transfers means I will lose a bit more beer. It won't be a lot.

 

[marchuk96]

I'm not talking about crashing the yeast. I'm talking about fulling transferring the beer off the yeast prior to DH.

I'm using cornys with the clear beer floating dip tube to ferment in. They leave a bit at the bottom. That, combined with the fact that there's always liquid entrained in the trub / hops and that I'll be doing two transfers means I will lose a bit more beer. It won't be a lot.

Gotcha...I would think your loss would be very minimal if increased at all...if you just did it all in one vessel vs what you do...I think you would lose just as much just spread out over the few transfers...your not adding any more material just shifting vessels...

 

[hezagenius]

My last NEIPA batch, I transferred the beer off the yeast into a purged keg with hops and it had the best aroma maybe of any of my NEIPA batches. The downside to doing this is that you really can't do a full purge when you add hops to the receiving keg. What I did was do my full liquid purge like normal, then pop the lid and add CO2 at around 1psi through the liquid post. Toss the hops in as quick as possible, put the lid back on, do several purges at 15psi, then transfer into the keg.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I'm not talking about crashing the yeast. I'm talking about fulling transferring the beer off the yeast prior to DH..

Ok, well I generally do both(soft crash to 55-60, transfer off the yeast) especially when I want to harvest the yeast. The longer you wait the less important it probably is to crash as the yeast continues to drop out but I don't have a good reason not to do it. And I've experienced great results. One batch I crashed and didn't transfer off the yeast(dry hopped in primary after fermentation) because I didn't care about harvesting, and still got really good results so I really think the magic is in waiting for the yeast to finish and drop, and its less important if you transfer off or not.

If you're only going to do one dry hop I'd do it that way but I know a lot of breweries are dry hopping at tail end of fermentation and then again when it's done.

 

[Dgallo]

Ok, well I generally do both(soft crash to 55-60, transfer off the yeast) especially when I want to harvest the yeast. The longer you wait the less important it probably is to crash as the yeast continues to drop out but I don't have a good reason not to do it. And I've experienced great results. One batch I crashed and didn't transfer off the yeast(dry hopped in primary after fermentation) because I didn't care about harvesting, and still got really good results so I really think the magic is in waiting for the yeast to finish and drop, and its less important if you transfer off or not.

If you're only going to do one dry hop I'd do it that way but I know a lot of breweries are dry hopping at tail end of fermentation and then again when it's done.

@Andre3000 follow this. The main purpose is to eliminate the yeast strip that occurs when the yeast in suspension drop out.

 

[Andre3000]

@Andre3000 follow this. The main purpose is to eliminate the yeast strip that occurs when the yeast in suspension drop out.

Ok. I thought it had something to do with the yeast being present as well. Worth a comparison maybe.

 

[VirginiaHops1]

By the way if you're looking for a good episode of B&B check out episode 57 with Triple Crossing. I actually just got back from Richmond yesterday for a bday beer weekend and they were probably the best stuff I had there(along with The Veil and The Answer) in a city loaded with beer heavyweights. He goes into a decent amount of detail about his recipes and process.

 

[Dgallo]

Ok. I thought it had something to do with the yeast being present as well. Worth a comparison maybe.

Yeah. You can certainly transfer off the yeast cake if you want. Just make sure you’ve given it time to clean up and wait til after you soft crash. Most breweries will drop all the yeast after soft crashing

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Yeah. You can certainly transfer off the yeast cake if you want. Just make sure you’ve given it time to clean up and wait til after you soft crash. Most breweries will do drop all the yeast after soft crashing

I found it interesting in the podcast I referenced above that Triple Crossing apparently doesn't soft crash. They said they let their tanks free rise to 68-72 by end of fermentation and do their dry hops at that temp. I'm assuming it's a production logistics thing, and I'm going to keep soft crashing because I can and it's easy.

 

[Dgallo]

I found it interesting in the podcast I referenced above that Triple Crossing apparently doesn't soft crash. They said they let their tanks free rise to 68-72 by end of fermentation and do their dry hops at that temp. I'm assuming it's a production logistics thing, and I'm going to keep soft crashing because I can and it's easy.

Sorry, I should have been more clear. Those who are soft crashing, will remove all yeast. Your right. Some breweries don’t have the time or capabilities to soft crash.

 

[Andre3000]

I'm going to try the soft crash and transfer. It's the most different from what I've been doing. First time with 1098, citra simcoe combo and modified grain bill as well so this should be a fairly different beer.

 

[Genuine]

Glad to report that my batch came out great! Celebrated my birthday yesterday and brought the keg. All 5 gallons of it went in a couple hours! Gotta brew up another batch on my next day off!

 

[Hannabrew]

Happy birthday

For those that are soft crashing prior to dry hopping, no issues with diacetyl due to hop creep?

 

[stickyfinger]

Happy birthday

For those that are soft crashing prior to dry hopping, no issues with diacetyl due to hop creep?

i am also worried about diacetyl with these post fermentation dryhop techniques.

 

[Dgallo]

I have never had diacetyle and have always dryhopped to some capacity after fermentation. Never detected in forced diacetyle test either

 

[marchuk96]

I too can atest to no diacetyl issues...hit f.g.....wait a couple days ..dry hop hard...and then package

 

[VirginiaHops1]

I haven't had diacetyl so far. I've been checking gravity/tasting around day 8-10, and if it looks like I'm at FG I start my crash.

 

[BeerFst]

Once upon a time we were told only to dry hop post fermentation or the co2 would take all our aroma compounds away

 

[marchuk96]

Once upon a time we were told only to dry hop post fermentation or the co2 would take all our aroma compounds away

Indeed indeed... In light of so many new techniques and methods I feel like the message has really gotten intertwined with so many variables that people(including myself) don't know what the right way to dry hop really is...long vs. short...bio vs. reg dry hop..big vs small quantites..presure vs no presure...yeast vs no yeast..I think the truth of the matter is there isnt really a"right"way ...i think there are some solid versions that we all do that work but in the end it comes down to what works best for you and your process ..keep on trying different things until you get there... Then tweak that as you go...thats part of the joy and challenge of what we do...cheers!!

 

[ttuato]

Check these slides out from Boulevard in 2016 about dryhopping - Cold 38F / Warm 68F



Dryhop at 4P vs FG vs double dryhop

1lb/bbl (~1oz/gal) vs 4lb/bbl (~2oz/gal)

Slurry dryhopping (test) vs just adding pellets (control)
FYI - Homebrew process - add beer to dryhops then inject into fermenter - see norcal yeast brink / harvester

 

[Dgallo]

Check these slides out from Boulevard in 2016 about dryhopping - Cold 38F / Warm 68F



Dryhop at 4P vs FG vs double dryhop

View attachment 622368

1lb/bbl (~1oz/gal) vs 4lb/bbl (~2oz/gal)


View attachment 622370
View attachment 622372

Slurry dryhopping (test) vs just adding pellets (control)
FYI - Homebrew process - add beer to dryhops then inject into fermenter - see norcal yeast brink / harvester

View attachment 622373

Do they provide the entire study anywhere? Interested in seeing their entire experimental design

 

[1bottlerocket]

Until you get comfortable with the rest of your processes, I would not use harvested yeast as you'd be taking a risk with the biggest factor in the quality of your beer.

Yes, that seems like great advice. From everything I have read it seems having good yeast and fermentation are two big things to pay attention to.

 

[ttuato]

Do they provide the entire study anywhere? Interested in seeing their entire experimental design

U fortunately no - it was a presentation uploaded to CBC I dont think the study was published.

 

[Dgallo]

U fortunately no - it was a presentation uploaded to CBC I dont think the study was published.

Gotcha. Would totally been interesting to find out what hops were used and how the sensory data was quantified

 

[marchuk96]

Check these slides out from Boulevard in 2016 about dryhopping - Cold 38F / Warm 68F



Dryhop at 4P vs FG vs double dryhop

View attachment 622368

1lb/bbl (~1oz/gal) vs 4lb/bbl (~2oz/gal)


View attachment 622370
View attachment 622372

Slurry dryhopping (test) vs just adding pellets (control)
FYI - Homebrew process - add beer to dryhops then inject into fermenter - see norcal yeast brink / harvester

View attachment 622373

If my math is right ...I think 1 lb/bbl is more like a 1/2 oz per gal...not 1

 

[BeerFst]

If my math is right ...I think 1 lb/bbl is more like a 1/2 oz per gal...not 1

correct, 16oz/31gal

 

[Hannabrew]

Revisiting the idea of krausening instead of spunding, I would think that it would defeat the purpose of dropping the yeast prior to dry hopping right?

 

[ttuato]

correct, 16oz/31gal

Correct! Math is not my strong suit...

 

[uSlackr]

I listened to Episode 75 of craft beer and brewing featuring Odd13 Brewing. Recommend a listen if you haven't already: https://beerandbrewing.com/podcast-episode-75-odd13/

BeerSmith Podcast #189 with Stan Hieronymus has some good info on the style. Including the purpose of the haze

 

[VirginiaHops1]

BeerSmith Podcast #189 with Stan Hieronymus has some good info on the style. Including the purpose of the haze

Was there anything brand new here? I listened to the first 10 minutes on the way to work but not sure I can get through this one, with Brad Smith eating and smacking his lips in the background the whole time Stan was talking. So far he talked about the haze being mostly proteins, some hops compounds, very little yeast which I think most people have come around on.

 

[CTS]

Was there anything brand new here? I listened to the first 10 minutes on the way to work but not sure I can get through this one, with Brad Smith eating and smacking his lips in the background the whole time Stan was talking. So far he talked about the haze being mostly proteins, some hops compounds, very little yeast which I think most people have come around on.

Good I'm not the only one that gets distracted by the lip smacking. Haha

 

[Dgallo]

Was there anything brand new here? I listened to the first 10 minutes on the way to work but not sure I can get through this one, with Brad Smith eating and smacking his lips in the background the whole time Stan was talking. So far he talked about the haze being mostly proteins, some hops compounds, very little yeast which I think most people have come around on.

The only person that is putting out any new info on the style with true evidence and full disclosure on the studies he does or ones he references is Scott Janish. I’ve learned to solely depend on his finding and my own experiences.

 

[isomerization]

The only person that is putting out any new info on the style with true evidence and full disclosure on the studies he does or ones he references is Scott Janish. I’ve learned to solely depend on his finding and my own experiences.

I’ve seen you reference Scott and his studies a lot, which is great, I enjoy reading his reviews a lot too. I would also recommend Tom Shellhammer, an actual brewing scientist (no knock on Scott).

Relevant hop articles are under the Research tab here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/Th_Shellhammer/amp

 

[marchuk96]

I’ve seen you reference Scott and his studies a lot, which is great, I enjoy reading his reviews a lot too. I would also recommend Tom Shellhammer, an actual brewing scientist (no knock on Scott).

Relevant hop articles are under the Research tab here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/Th_Shellhammer/amp

I took take Scott's findings as a solid guideline...are shellhammers congruent with Scotts??

 

[isomerization]

I took take Scott's findings as a solid guideline...are shellhammers congruent with Scotts??

It’s my understanding that a lot of Scott’s findings are based on published scientific literature, where he then does a comparison brew. Shellhammer is an academic scientist publishing in peer reviewed journals.

I’m not saying one is “better” than the other, just that Scott’s “research” is more qualitative than quantitative. I think he’d agree if asked. His website (soon to be book?) is a great source for aggregated published studies, and I like how he adapts them to something the homebrewer can employ.

 

[ttuato]

I took take Scott's findings as a solid guideline...are shellhammers congruent with Scotts??

In addition to Shellhammer, if interested in more modern HOPS research here are the ones to look for.

Add Daniel Sharp to that list too - check out his phD thesis from Oregon - good stuff.

As @isomerization stated Scott doesn't do scientific research, rather he reviews the published data and translates it to laymens terms to make it more accessible to non-scientist. Great thing about Scott is that he covers hops, malt, and yeast in all of his stuff - Shellhammer is a hops guy. I think he is at Ninkasi now though.

 

[ttuato]

Here are a few of the most widely quoted research articles in NEIPA world. Stan H & Scott reference these a lot.

The other one of note is the Kishimoto thesis. A lot of what you see from him can was originally in this document.
https://repository.kulib.kyoto-u.ac.jp/dspace/bitstream/2433/66109/4/D_Kishimoto_Toru.pdf

 

[SRJHops]

I’ve seen you reference Scott and his studies a lot, which is great, I enjoy reading his reviews a lot too. I would also recommend Tom Shellhammer, an actual brewing scientist (no knock on Scott).

Relevant hop articles are under the Research tab here:

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.researchgate.net/profile/Th_Shellhammer/amp

Good stuff, but sure makes me appreciate Janish even more. Could someone tell me what 800 g/hl means? And better yet, how many ounces per gallon that translates to?