Just out of curiosity, how often do you brew? I brew about every other week, and sometimes I feel like that is a lot.
New England IPA "Northeast" style IPA
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Just out of curiosity, how often do you brew? I brew about every other week, and sometimes I feel like that is a lot.
OP
OP
I brew a lot in the summer and winter. Less in the spring and fall because I coach track and cross country.
60 (ish) batches a year though probably....
I use 1318 a lot in these beers, what do you mean by oxygen hungry. Its a crazy yeast but I love the fruit and tart it brings to these beers coupled with the fruity hops. It can be a little finicky and by that I've found if you don't raise the temp up after primary fermentation it can possibly stall but I've never had that prob and I've also had batches attenuate better than the Conan I use.
mintyice
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No, I mean that maybe it demands more dissolved oxygen than a similar ale yeast. Pure speculation, and maybe it has more to do with a temperature rise. I've had it refuse to drop the last 8 points or so for like 3 days, then magically it was done, and it was kept at a steady 72F, but I don't think I shook the carboy as much as I normally do with 1318.
cas3439
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Yeah, I suppose that's funny! I never really thought about it, as I just copied the numbers directly from Brewer's Friend. I'll have to remember to start rounding off.
You don't have to shake it just raise the temp with 1318 and it'll hit its fg but there will still be a monster yeast cake on top, first time I used it I had to sanitize a mash paddle the plastic one that comes with most kits and use the handle to break open a hole so I could let the dry hops get in and after those went in a couple days later the whole cake dropped on its own.
mintyice
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Yeah I've top cropped it before out of my speidel but I just dry hop in the keg. I usually raise it but I had my heatwrap around a saison instead.
pegasus17459
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Hey thanks for the info! Ill skip secondary. One more question then. Should I bother cold crashing? I am using a 6.5 gal Big Mouth plastic carboy with a spout at the bottom. I am thinking I might be able to use that spout to tube directly into bottling bucket without having to use a siphon.
I just got mine carbonated in the keg and it is great. Weird thing was when I first did a force carb at 30 psi for 36 hours then 12 psi for a few hours. My first pours Saturday and Sunday were not good. It had a weird aftertaste almost grass like. Today (Monday) it had a completely different taste it was amazing.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
has anyone tried WY1450, Denny's Favorite 50 yet in this or another NE IPA? i used it in the Tired Hands Hophands recipe Ed Coffey has on his site. just pitched yesterday. i used WY1450 in an american strong ale and loved the mouthfeel and cloudiness, so thought i'd try it!
crusader1612
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I haven't tried that yeast, I ran through Hophands as well recentlly - kegged last week, wqith 1318 - should be interesting.
I wouldn't bother to cold crash this style. It's supposed to be hazy.
I used 1450 in a session version similar to this beer to retain some body. Mashed high at 156, OG 1.048, FG 1.014. I was happy with it and would use again. I have a higher gravity version in the fermenter right now and tried 1318 with this one.
For those that don't cold crash, what are you doing about hop debris?
I didn't cold crash my latest batch and the hop debris was insane. I probably left over a gallon in each fermenter so my ten gallon batch turned into 8 gallons (and I racked to secondary because I was harvesting yeast)... I figured I would cold crash next time to see if I could get it to compact better. I don't like putting my hops in a bag either, but maybe I'll have to next time.
milldoggy
Well-Known Member
I transfer from primary to a keg and use those stainless filter tubes to dry hop. I shake the keg every day or so and if I do, the hops get saturated. I get a little debris on the first pour, but clean after that. I know most are dry hopping in primary, but my process works and is easy and yields a fantastic beer with no to little waste
I have been dry hopping right in the primary with no bag or filter. I just rock the primary a little bit every few days to help the hops saturate and drop. Then, when I rack to the keg, I put a small hop strainer bag over the end of the tube (the end that goes into the keg) and hold it on with a sanitized rubber band. I rack carefully with an autosiphon and when I'm done, there is a little bit of hop debris in the bag, which I just wash out.
I have also tried dry hopping in a keg as Braufessor suggests, but I didn't notice a difference and it was an extra keg to clean, etc. I do try to add the second dry hop when there is still a little bit of airlock activity to avoid oxidation from opening the primary. I also flush the keg with CO2 before and during racking.
This may be my next yeast to try. It sounds just like a cleaner version of 1318, and while I really love 1318 for this type of beer it can get a little tangy or twangy and if enough is left in suspension is can over power the flavor a little. This 1450 looks like it achieves the same attenuation along with low flocculation like 1318 but maybe has a bit of a cleaner taste.
Same as others. I filter from fermenter to bottling bucket. I have a 4x10 300 micron stanless steel mesh filter from Utah biodiesel. I also like my hops loose, both in the fermenter and in the boil, so I also use this filter from boil kettle to fermenter.
Coff
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Sorry but I beg to differ, its not that this style is supposed to be hazy, its just that it is hazy by way of how the beer is constructed. These beers weren't originally constructed to be hazy, but to taste/smell a certain way, the haze is a by-product. It doesnt mean you should be cutting corners like not using Whirlfloc, not cold crashing, or serving the beer before its finished. Believe me, if you hop it heavily both wirhlpool and dry, use a bunch of wheat/oats etc, and a low floc yeast it will be hazy. You dont need to cut corners to ensure that.
Although this has become such conventional wisdom now that people now scoff at a NEIPA that isnt as hazy as possible...
Sorry for the rant, I just think people still need to use proper brewing practices with these beers.
OP
OP
Couldn't agree more. The more of these I brew, the more I pin the haziness on two things:
1.) Heavy hopping at flame out, at hop stand temps, at the end of primary and dry hopping..... whatever interactions are going on with the hop oils, proteins and yeast generate a lot of haze that hangs around for quite a while (although the last few pints of my kegs tend to go crystal clear).
2.) I think pH plays a roll..... not sure precisely why or how. But it seems to be a characteristic of these beers that final pH is on the high end. I think some of this is because of the heavy hopping rates. From what I have read, heavy dry hopping will drive pH up in fermented beer.
My beers are fairly clean/clear going into the fermenter. I leave all debris behind in my kettle. They are actually quite clear going into the dry hop keg out of the fermenter - I do not transfer much/any significant yeast. I leave behind almost all hop debris and trub in the dry hop keg - but my beers still come out very hazy.
Personally, my preference is for the hops and malt to shine. I personally find that sometimes a beer that is yeastier and cloudier can come off as losing some of that.
So I brewed with 1318 eleven days ago and there is still krausen on top. I dry hopped at day 5 figuring I would be kegging by now but not sure if I should wait for the krausen to drop. I started at 66 but ramped it up to 72 by day 5 and it seems to be at final gravity (1.012). To dry hop, I just moved the foam with a sanitized spoon and threw the hops in loose. I generally cold crash, so will that drop it? Or should I wait till it drops on its own?
Did anyone listen to the brew strong podcast recently? It was a Q&A episode where Palmer said you shouldn't cold crash in primary and especially not too soon. Can't remember the reasons why though. I generally cold crash my IPAs after 8-14 days so I can keg. Wonder if I should change my process. Any thoughts on that?
I've found if you slowly spin the fermenter back and forth that helps it fall or cold crashing will help drop it. Yeah 1318 even at fg will stick around forever, just that top cropping thing. Mark my word you will pleased with the outcome, using 1318 makes the beer look just like any treehouse or trillium beer u see.
Awesome. Thanks!
OP
OP
I never cold crash anymore. I do move my fermenter from upstairs to downstairs for kegging around day 12 or so and let it sit until day 14 before transfer. I think that moving the keg helps the hops fall. I find that there is really no need for me to cold crash with my process - the yeast, trub, hops have all settled out at room temperature.
Was the podcast perhaps talking about the possibility of sucking oxygen back into the fermenter during cold crash?
I can see why not to cold crash if you keg I mean a keg is just a big bottle but the difference is its under co2 before if you purge it and during transfer and after so everything will drop without the addition of O2 being introduced into the system unlike like me if you cold crash your primary to long and get suck back then bottle oxidation hits a lot faster. Ive tried not cold crashing my hoppy beers and I get way to much hop debris when bottling so now I just do it for 24 hrs and try to refill the airlock with starsan. Sure some O2 is still getting in but a lot less then when I used to cold crash for 3-5 days.
Excuse me. I didn't realize cold crashing was an absolute necessity to brew beer, and not crashing was cutting corners. The poster asked for opinions, and I gave mine. You could have easily given yours as well without having to call me out. Get over yourself. My process is no more right or wrong than yours.
grassfeeder
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Agreed. I don't cold crash any of beers, regardless of style, before they're legged and carbed. I have also found that I see zero difference in taste when I did. Is my beer crystal clear? no. do I care? no.
I just finished my 4th NEIPA. 2nd time using Mosaic. I get a huge tangerine citrus flavor with that hop. It's great. Just wondering if anyone else gets that. This version is like OJ. 7/7 brew day. (5.25) gal batch
6# Golden Promise
6# 2-row
2# Am White Wheat
.5# flaked barley
Wyeast 1318
@ 60- Chinook........1
------------
@ 10- Citra...........(.5)
@ 10- Mosaic.......(.5)
@ 10- Centennial..(.5)
------------
@FO- Citra............2
@FO- Mosaic........2
@FO- Centennial..(.5)
--------------
@DH- Citra............2
@DH- Mosaic........2.5
@DH- Centennial..(.5)
6# Golden Promise
6# 2-row
2# Am White Wheat
.5# flaked barley
Wyeast 1318
@ 60- Chinook........1
------------
@ 10- Citra...........(.5)
@ 10- Mosaic.......(.5)
@ 10- Centennial..(.5)
------------
@FO- Citra............2
@FO- Mosaic........2
@FO- Centennial..(.5)
--------------
@DH- Citra............2
@DH- Mosaic........2.5
@DH- Centennial..(.5)
I find that the trub is more compacted when I cold crash, so I get more beer out. And I'm fermenting in a fermentation chamber, so it's trivial for me to cold crash.
The podcast was Brew Strong from 7/4/16 at around 20 minutes in. Just listened again and Palmer just said to make sure the fermentation was over before cold crashing. He also said if you do it too fast, you get thermal shock and extra fatty acids and lipids released leading to staling. He went on to say you shouldn't cold crash on the yeast cake, which is the only time I ever do it. He said you get more lipids in solution. Hmmm... what to do....
Use an S shaped airlock. No suck back.
OP
OP
I do think so much of it has to do with the individual system and process each person has in place. I only use a chamber for lagers - My basement is 58-65 year round. Upstairs is 65-70 year round..... So my entire house is basically an ale fermentation chamber
Fermenter style plays a role also - I use either SS brew buckets or bottling buckets - both have spigots, both have dead space at the bottom that allows quite a bit of yeast, hops, trub, etc. to settle out and stay out of the way.
I do remember that segment now that you mention it.....another one I listened to was an NHC presentation on oxidation...... that one was just depressing - seems that the battle against O2 is almost unwinable sometimes
I get suck back through my S shaped airlocks all the time with my lagers - just bubbles through in reverse. Sometimes it will even suck the star san out of the air lock.
I'm sure you've heard this before, but just because the ambient temperature is 65, doesn't mean the fermenting wort will be 65. I saw it first hand on a brett beer I did with no temperature control as I was told by the brewery I got the brett yeast from to let it free rise up to the 70s. I had a thermometer with a probe taped to the side of the bucket and the temperature of the fermenting wort got up to the mid to upper 70s for a couple days during the first few days of fermentation and this was in my finished basement that was 68 at the time.I do think so much of it has to do with the individual system and process each person has in place. I only use a chamber for lagers - My basement is 58-65 year round. Upstairs is 65-70 year round..... So my entire house is basically an ale fermentation chamber
Weird. I've never had suck back with an S shaped airlock.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I love John Palmer. He has a ton of knowledge. The problem I think is that he is too theoretical with everything. I have cold crashed ever manner of beer and had no problems to my taste. Just do what works for you.
You can even hear it in Jamil's voice and comments sometimes that he is getting frustrated with Palmer and his inability to just make a clear statement about what we should do. Jamil has a ton of brewing experience. Palmer has less experience but a lot of academic knowledge. The academic knowledge doesn't always translate into a homebrewed batch of beer or at least isn't as dire as you think.
I'm all for brewing research, but you have to do what tastes best and is convenient for you. I've tried racking IPAs that are young and have a ton of hops, and it can be a real PITA. Cold crashing definitely makes it easier IMHO.
stickyfinger
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If you are just cold crashing your beer down to 30's F, you can just take out the airlock and put in a solid bung. I never just leave an airlock on. When you take out the bung, it pulls in outside air, but it's not enough to infect the beer, etc in my experience. Just don't put a bung into the carboy if you are slowly dropping temp, as it could blow off of course.
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If you're dropping from the 60's to 30 you absolutely had air go in reverse. That is a large enough temperature change to make a noticeable pressure change. Now how much gets pulled in depends on your dead space. If you're in a secondary with almost no dead space, your pressure change won't require much to be pulled in to equalize. But if you're in a 6.5 gallon carboy with 5 gallons of beer, it definitely is.
If you are using plastic carboys, do not just throw a solid bung in there. You'll end up collapsing the carboy with the pressure change. It needs to equalize somehow. Either through an airlock, leaks in the fermentation vessel, or collapsing the vessel.
I know what you mean about Palmer and Jamil. Although I'm academic (chemist), so I enjoy his point of view. I probably won't stop cold crashing in primary, but it would be easy enough for me to set up a program on my temp controller to drop the temperature slowly instead of me manually dropping the temp from 70F to 40F and have it drop rapidly.
I get that the air will get sucked in. What I'm saying is I've never had the starsan in an S shaped airlock get sucked in. Sorry if I wasn't clear.
Coff
Well-Known Member
Sorry if you took my comment as a shot at your process, it wasn't, as I know nothing of your process. Just voicing my opinion, never said I was better than you.
I wasnt calling your process out, and not saying cold crashing is an absolute necessity, I actually dont cold crash myself. What I was pointing out is that you said this style is supposed to be hazy, something that I contest. It seems to me that folks are using that as a crutch to make beers that are overly hazy/murky. This style is hazy as a byproduct of how the beers are constructed, and imo shouldn't be brewed with the intention of it being as hazy.
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stickyfinger
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Nah. It's no big deal. You won't crush the plastic bottles, at least I didn't I used a 6 gallon better bottle with a solid stopper when crashing from 60s to 30s with no problems. It may start to compress in the middle or change shape; i'm not sure about that, but it works fine.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
I'm also a chemist, and I sometimes see homebrew friends also get caught in this way of thinking. I ask them what they've experienced with a certain process or I wonder how something might affect something, and they just google it and read off the common dogma on the issue like it settles it right there. It drives me nuts. There is so much BS on homebrewing being written (this post maybe included...ha ha!) that you just have to decide for yourself on some of these issues. There are so many variables with each beer and brewer that it's really hard to say anything is super reliable b/w two people.
Another example is that on Brulosophy they did several hot W-34/70 fermentations and were pretty pleased with the results. I just did two different beers, one day apart and fermented both at 65F with W-34/70. One is a steam beer that I am drinking now and tastes delicious after like 2 weeks since brew day. The other is a helles that has an awful sulfur character to it and that I hope disappears if I keep suspending the yeast in the carboy. So, there are two beers that are identical in how I treated them after creating the wort and the results are completely different.
stickyfinger
Well-Known Member
Shi-, I forgot to say that if you listen to the Brew Strong show on pH from several weeks ago, the most recent one on pH, Jamil gets frustrated at Palmer like twice within 10 minutes or so. Palmer goes on and on about different pH ranges to answer a dude's question, and Jamil is like, "just give them the best ranges for dark and light beers!" Ha ha! I just laughed, as some of my friends want to go on and on about things that I see as irrelevant as well.
I love Palmer though. He has a ton of knowledge and seems like a really great guy. I just have the same critique of him that Jamil does. He could stand to learn now to be more succinct and answer questions better. On the other hand, Jamil sometimes is pretty flippant and dismissive of questions I think. He has a tendency to think it's his way or the highway on a lot of issues. I guess we all probably struggle with the same spectrum in brewing. Anyway, I have tried to be a lot more open and less dogmatic about my brewing discussions since listening to Brulosophy especially.
