Noob Questions - GF Specific

[glutarded-chris]

If the rice hulls absorb mash water early, then they don't hold back valuable converted sugars. Therefore, the only thing that would concern me with rice is that I can account for the absorption so that I add the correct amount of water to get the water-to-grist-ratio that I want for the mash and be able to predict the resulting extracted volume. Also, with rice, with the same weight of grain, you have more percentage of husk and therefore that reduces the amount of converted sugar you can get from a pound of rice grain compared to millet. I think the most important thing is being able to reasonably calculate/predict the volume and gravity of the collected wart. If I have to add a pound of extra grain, so be it!

The thing that really matters is the finished product and that you get what you want. The batch I brewed last weekend, I used more rice than I had used previously. It made a difference and I was not fully prepared for it. I think I will be focusing on the optimum mix of rice and millet in my future batches.

I am very interested in the fluid and heat absorption properties of rice compared to millet, buckwheat and barley. So far, for my millet and buckwheat grain bills, I have used the factors provided by Palmer for calculating the temperature of the strike water needed to hit the proper starting mash temp and the absorption rate to calculate extraction. Surprisingly, this has served me well even though Palmer's calculations were based on barley. Now as I add a larger percentage of rice, I have to question the accuracy of the calculation factors I am using. The GFHB article was not as helpful as I would have hoped. They give percentages of absorption, but how do you use that? The heat absorption and fluid absorption factors that Palmer provides gives you something that you can use.

 

[JMath]

You really ought to start your own blog/website Chris. Or at the very least, some kind of wiki page.

 

[wyowolf]

What do you think about the stainless steel mesh BIAB systems? To me those seem pretty similar to a bag, thus negating the need for rice hulls. But I'm not sure how much you're having to move/shake the bag around and whatnot.

For example, from Clawhammer:

I have a Colorado Brew System with this same type of basket. IMO its not good for efficiency... I believe what is happening is the wort just runs over the top of the bed and down the sides of the basket and not through the grain bed. I am going to try putting some AL foil around the insides to try to force it through the grain bed and not around it...

 

[glutarded-chris]

You really ought to start your own blog/website Chris. Or at the very least, some kind of wiki page.

Thanks JMath!

 

[skleice]

You really ought to start your own blog/website Chris. Or at the very least, some kind of wiki page.

+1 to this. I vote for a YouTube channel!

 

[JMath]

I went for it! On Black Friday I purchased a Grainfather ($200 off) and a Monster MM-2 (complete package $40 off). After two years of sorghum brewing and another two years out of the game completely, I am excited!

P.S. sorry for hijacking the thread skleice.

 

[skleice]

I went for it! On Black Friday I purchased a Grainfather ($200 off) and a Monster MM-2 (complete package $40 off). After two years of sorghum brewing and another two years out of the game completely, I am excited!

P.S. sorry for hijacking the thread skleice.

No problem. I've enjoyed all of the info as I may pursue electric or induction brewing myself. Let us know how the grainfather works for you. Glad to hear u got a good deal.

 

[skleice]

My first Grouse shipment arrives today! I ordered 2 of the GFHB recipe kits and already have my MM2 mill. I also decided to go with a 10 gallon kettle for larger batches (though j will brew smaller in the meantime).

I've been reading and rereading many posts. One thing I have not seen much of is talk of mashout? Do you guys mashout GF grains or is it not necessary?

 

[Legume]

I have never bothered to mash out.
It might be helpfull if your beers are over attenuating, but it is not absoloutly necessary.

 

[skleice]

I had my go at my first ever AG batch today. It was the Porter kit from GFHB reduced to 2.5 gallons. I decided to follow the directions for a single infusion mash to dip my toe in the AG pool. It was not so smooth, but educational.

1). 183 degree strike water was not hot enough.
2). 1 qt/lb ratio was very thick. Temps were all over the place around my cheap kettle. Had to keep my stovetop burner on low to sustain temp.
3). My preboil gravity was pretty low (I think due to poor sparge process). My grain was double crushed at .2 just before brewing. I ended up boiling off an extra gallon to get gravity up, which was successful. In reality, I need a bigger kettle to make AG work.

We'll see how it turns out. A lot of work for a little beer, but I'll be upgrading equipment soon.

 

[glutarded-chris]

Welcome to GF AG! you will never go back!

1) What temperature did you hit after your first infusion? I do a simple heat balance calculation to determine the strike water temperature for the amount of grain i have and the grist ratio I want. My last batch was low after the first infusion and I suspect it was because I used the highest percentage of rice i had ever used. It is possible the rice hulls absorb more heat than the millet grain and I have to adjust my calculations.

2) For the long final rest, I shoot for 1.5 qt/lb ratio. 1 qt/lb is good for initial dough in and gelatinization rest, but I think it is too stiff for conversion rests. Most advice is that if it is too stiff, the enzymes cant effectively convert the starch and too thin the enzymes are too diluted.

3) You can always have some rice solids, candy syrup or something on hand to boost the gravity a bit at the end if it is too low, or put in a little extra grain at the beginning so you have fliexibility. I suspect the gluten free malts have a good amount of variability in yield potential. I had one batch that was crazy high and I know that was not due to any process change on my part. I had a few that were low when everything seemed to go well. I wouldn't implicate your process too much until you do a few batches.

Good choice on a 10 gallon kettle. I have a 15 gallon that I bought for 8 gallon batches, but it is too large for 5 gallon batches. I plan on falling back to my 10 gallon kettle in the future because I do mostly 5 gallon batches now. Full volume boils for 5 gallon batches have to be tough for indoor brewing on a stove. If you are in a cold climate, you might consider mashing indoors and then transfer to the main kettle outside on a propane burner. This keeps the heavy large volume part outside.

 

[JMath]

Chris, do you worry about pH? Wondering if I should get a pH meter before my first brew.

 

[skleice]

Welcome to GF AG! you will never go back!

1) What temperature did you hit after your first infusion? I do a simple heat balance calculation to determine the strike water temperature for the amount of grain i have and the grist ratio I want. My last batch was low after the first infusion and I suspect it was because I used the highest percentage of rice i had ever used. It is possible the rice hulls absorb more heat than the millet grain and I have to adjust my calculations.

2) For the long final rest, I shoot for 1.5 qt/lb ratio. 1 qt/lb is good for initial dough in and gelatinization rest, but I think it is too stiff for conversion rests. Most advice is that if it is too stiff, the enzymes cant effectively convert the starch and too thin the enzymes are too diluted.

3) You can always have some rice solids, candy syrup or something on hand to boost the gravity a bit at the end if it is too low, or put in a little extra grain at the beginning so you have fliexibility. I suspect the gluten free malts have a good amount of variability in yield potential. I had one batch that was crazy high and I know that was not due to any process change on my part. I had a few that were low when everything seemed to go well. I wouldn't implicate your process too much until you do a few batches.

Good choice on a 10 gallon kettle. I have a 15 gallon that I bought for 8 gallon batches, but it is too large for 5 gallon batches. I plan on falling back to my 10 gallon kettle in the future because I do mostly 5 gallon batches now. Full volume boils for 5 gallon batches have to be tough for indoor brewing on a stove. If you are in a cold climate, you might consider mashing indoors and then transfer to the main kettle outside on a propane burner. This keeps the heavy large volume part outside.

The directions said 183 for strike water, but my temp dropped to 155. I think I need to dough in slower. I added very hot water to boost temp to 163 and loosen the mash a bit. Rice was 20% of the grain bill.

I was uneasy about adding syrups because I'm not savvy enough on the math to do it on the fly. I decided just to boil down before adding my hops. The target brew was more important to me than the quantity. No biggie.

I would definitely like to brew indoors. It is 8 degrees out today and the rest of the week will be in the teens. My current plans are to get a 10 gallon kettle and the avantco i3500 induction burner and brew right next to my utility sink in the basement....we'll see. Probably will do a couple more small batches on the stovetop for educational purposes.

 

[glutarded-chris]

@ JMath,
I would not buy a pH meter right away. I bought one and now never use it. At some point you will want to get water analysis on your home water and maybe add some minerals to get it where your target beer needs it to be, but I would just start brewing and focus on the process.

@skleice, understand if it is that cold outside!!! Opposite problem I have. So hot and humid here in the summer I rarely brew June through August!

 

[skleice]

So here’s my two cents ... I’ve been brewing on the grainfather system, which as someone mentioned seems very similar to the clawhammer, for almost a year now and love it. It produces consistent results, wort with very little trub, fantastic efficiency (85-90%) and a stress free (tho long) brew day.

I brew mostly three gallon batches so the volume limitations are not an issue, but definitely could be if you want to brew larger batches of high abv beer. This would be true for both gluten free and traditional barley based beers. I would say 5 gallon batches @ 1065 OG are pushing the upper limits of the system.

I use mostly rice malt because I feel I get better recirculation due the larger hulls and less flour. Better recirculation leads to better efficiency and smaller grain bills. Most of my beers are about 70% rice malt, 20% millet malt and 10% buckwheat. Use of Termamyl also helps with liquefaction and gelatinization.

As with any 110 volt system, the boil is less than vigorous, but sufficient. So while it may not be for everyone, for me it was a game changer as far quality and consistentcy of beer produced.

I'm beginning to seriously consider the grainfather. My main concern is stuck sparge. Have you had issues with the smaller grains? What is your crush setting? How about your heating times?

 

[rjmaillie]

skleice, i've never had a problem with a stuck sparge. My main concern has always been a stuck or slow recirculation, since that reduces efficiency. And as long as that's good, sparging is also not an issue. RIMS with gluten free grains in the Grainfather can be tricky - here's what I think helps:

- Higher percentage of rice malt in the grain bill. Milled grains are larger and less prone to going to flour, plus larger hulls.
- 30 min rest at 104° at the start of mashing. Helps break down beta-glucans in some GF grains that can gum up the mash.
- Add Termamyl at the beginning of the mash. This helps with liquefaction and gelatinization (as stated above).
- Rice hulls. The more millet you use, the more you will need.
- Water to grain ratio of 1.5 q/gal to 2.0 q/gal depending on grain bill and size. So ignore the grainfather site calculators.

Up until my last brew, i used a corona style mill. I just messed with the settings until i got a suitable crush for each grain. A PITA but it worked. Just got a Monster Mill for Christmas so I'll start using that with the brew. Recommended crush is .9-.95 mm for rice and buckwheat, .65 to .7 mm for millet.

Heating times vary depending on ambient room temps, batch size, and even what outlet you use. For my last 3 gallon batch, my brew day was 6hrs and 20 min from the time i turned the unit on to when i was putting the carboy in the ferm chamber. Not too bad since that included four mash rests and a 90 minute boil for this particular recipe. With the new Connect control panel doing most of the work, there's a lot of down time too.

 

[skleice]

skleice, i've never had a problem with a stuck sparge. My main concern has always been a stuck or slow recirculation, since that reduces efficiency. And as long as that's good, sparging is also not an issue. RIMS with gluten free grains in the Grainfather can be tricky - here's what I think helps:

- Higher percentage of rice malt in the grain bill. Milled grains are larger and less prone to going to flour, plus larger hulls.
- 30 min rest at 104° at the start of mashing. Helps break down beta-glucans in some GF grains that can gum up the mash.
- Add Termamyl at the beginning of the mash. This helps with liquefaction and gelatinization (as stated above).
- Rice hulls. The more millet you use, the more you will need.
- Water to grain ratio of 1.5 q/gal to 2.0 q/gal depending on grain bill and size. So ignore the grainfather site calculators.

Up until my last brew, i used a corona style mill. I just messed with the settings until i got a suitable crush for each grain. A PITA but it worked. Just got a Monster Mill for Christmas so I'll start using that with the brew. Recommended crush is .9-.95 mm for rice and buckwheat, .65 to .7 mm for millet.

Heating times vary depending on ambient room temps, batch size, and even what outlet you use. For my last 3 gallon batch, my brew day was 6hrs and 20 min from the time i turned the unit on to when i was putting the carboy in the ferm chamber. Not too bad since that included four mash rests and a 90 minute boil for this particular recipe. With the new Connect control panel doing most of the work, there's a lot of down time too.

Thank you! That's awesome info. Really, I'm not that concerned about the heating times, just curious. The appeal to me is that I can brew in my kitchen and still be able to watch my twin 3 year old boys.

How do you go about dropping temp from gelatinization to your saccrification step? What do you do for whirlpooling?

I'm looking to take a crack at your Julius Cline when I get a proper rig.

 

[JMath]

Thanks rjmaillie. I will be brewing with my Grainfather for the first time soon, so it's great to have some first hand tips from a gf brewer using the same system.

This is the first I've heard of a 30 minute rest at 104°, so I will add that to my plan. I didn't buy any Termamyl, only AMG-300L because that's what glutenfreehomebrewing had in their store. I planned on getting some before moving to unmalted millet.

 

[JMath]

One more question rjmaillie, during the 104°F rest, do you circulate?

 

[rjmaillie]

skleice, for dropping down to the sacc rest from gelatinization i drop some zip-locks full of ice into the recirculating wort. You might have to swap new ones in and out a few times, but generally i get to the mid to low 150s in about 10-15 minutes. For whirpooling hops, I attach the counter-flow chiller and recirculate until i get close to the desired temp. The controller then holds at that temp for as long as you want.

I tweaked that Julius clone a little (it's the best beer i've ever made, IMHO). A word of warning tho, the recirc got stuck the last time i made it so it may need more rice hulls.

Here's the link to the recipe: https://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/recipe/view/526112/elle-cubed-neipa.

 

[rjmaillie]

JMath, yes I do recirculate for that rest. Once the strike water hits 104°, I mash in and turn on the pump. How the wort recirculates at this point is also a good indicator for the rest of the mash cycle.

This rest is actually suggested by Grainfather for hi-adjunct grain bills, so i've always used it.

 

[skleice]

Thank You! I'm pulling the trigger on the Grainfather!

 

[skleice]

We'll, I've got 2 more 1/2 batches under my belt. Last week was an IPA and my gravity was low again. I double checked and sure enough, my gap setting had moved. I must not have had the nuts tightened all the way. The beer will still be ok.

Today I brewed up an American Stout. After recalibrating my mill and working like hell during the sparge to get every last drop, I hit my target OG exactly! I had to use my old Turkey fryer kettle (after intense cleaning) to accommodate the grain bill. Now, onto the waiting....the worst part.

I think I'll do 1 more stovetop batch before turning to the Grainfather. Thanks again for all of the info from everyone. I would truly be lost without it.

 

[skleice]

skleice, i've never had a problem with a stuck sparge. My main concern has always been a stuck or slow recirculation, since that reduces efficiency. And as long as that's good, sparging is also not an issue. RIMS with gluten free grains in the Grainfather can be tricky - here's what I think helps:

- Higher percentage of rice malt in the grain bill. Milled grains are larger and less prone to going to flour, plus larger hulls.
- 30 min rest at 104° at the start of mashing. Helps break down beta-glucans in some GF grains that can gum up the mash.
- Add Termamyl at the beginning of the mash. This helps with liquefaction and gelatinization (as stated above).
- Rice hulls. The more millet you use, the more you will need.
- Water to grain ratio of 1.5 q/gal to 2.0 q/gal depending on grain bill and size. So ignore the grainfather site calculators.

Up until my last brew, i used a corona style mill. I just messed with the settings until i got a suitable crush for each grain. A PITA but it worked. Just got a Monster Mill for Christmas so I'll start using that with the brew. Recommended crush is .9-.95 mm for rice and buckwheat, .65 to .7 mm for millet.

Heating times vary depending on ambient room temps, batch size, and even what outlet you use. For my last 3 gallon batch, my brew day was 6hrs and 20 min from the time i turned the unit on to when i was putting the carboy in the ferm chamber. Not too bad since that included four mash rests and a 90 minute boil for this particular recipe. With the new Connect control panel doing most of the work, there's a lot of down time too.

My Grainfather just arrived at the house. Just checking in to see how your new mill worked out? Have you adjusted your settings? My first brew will be on Good Friday. Can't wait!

Also - my Galaxy IPA came out really good. I'm so excited to find that good GF beer is possible!

 

[rjmaillie]

Glad to hear the IPA came out good! And the beer will only get better.

The new mill has made a huge difference - I can't believe I waited as long as I did to get one. And I do have an update on settings.

- Rice and buckwheat still at .95 mm and millet at .6 mm. This gives a crush that just breaks the grain and the hulls remain intact.
- I still add 7.5% (of grain bill) rice hulls
- I started using the Grainfather calculator for strike water with good results. The mash is thicker but with the better crush coming from the mill I still get very good re-circulation. Their sparge calculations still don't work for my system.

With the mill settings above I've been able to keep the pump going at full throttle with no overflow and get 85% + brew house efficiency according to Brewers Friend. Good luck with the first brew and let us know how it works out!

 

[turboturist]

What size mesh/micron size is the basket on the grainfather?

 

[skleice]

Glad to hear the IPA came out good! And the beer will only get better.

The new mill has made a huge difference - I can't believe I waited as long as I did to get one. And I do have an update on settings.

- Rice and buckwheat still at .95 mm and millet at .6 mm. This gives a crush that just breaks the grain and the hulls remain intact.
- I still add 7.5% (of grain bill) rice hulls
- I started using the Grainfather calculator for strike water with good results. The mash is thicker but with the better crush coming from the mill I still get very good re-circulation. Their sparge calculations still don't work for my system.

With the mill settings above I've been able to keep the pump going at full throttle with no overflow and get 85% + brew house efficiency according to Brewers Friend. Good luck with the first brew and let us know how it works out!

Yeah, the IPA is delicious. It's so hop saturated that I don't think you can tell it's GF. It's hazy and juicy as hell, but not bitter. I used hop shot and then all Galaxy in the whirlpool and dry hop. The head retention is lacking, but I think that is due to too much flaked oats. It also has a bit of that hop burn after drinking 1/2 a pint. I've read that a good cold crash will help with that.

What adjustments do make for the grainfather sparge calcs? I haven't even looked at the grainfather calculators or website yet.

 

[rjmaillie]

What size mesh/micron size is the basket on the grainfather?

Its a solid stainless basket with removable perforated plates top and bottom. Perforations are approximately 2mm in diameter.

 

[rjmaillie]

Yeah, the IPA is delicious. It's so hop saturated that I don't think you can tell it's GF. It's hazy and juicy as hell, but not bitter. I used hop shot and then all Galaxy in the whirlpool and dry hop. The head retention is lacking, but I think that is due to too much flaked oats. It also has a bit of that hop burn after drinking 1/2 a pint. I've read that a good cold crash will help with that.

Time will also mellow the burn. I use hop socks for all of my dry hopping and it definitely helps keep the hop matter out of packaged beer. I have no issues with burn either.

What adjustments do make for the grainfather sparge calcs? I haven't even looked at the grainfather calculators or website yet.

I use Brewers Friend for recipe building and calculations. Heres my equipment profile for the grainfather:

Boil Evaporation Rate: 2.3 qrts/hr
Grain Absorption: .45 qrts/lb
Hop Absorption: .15 qrts/oz
Kettle Deadspace: 1 qrt
Misc Loses: 1 qrt

 

[turboturist]

Its a solid stainless basket with removable perforated plates top and bottom. Perforations are approximately 2mm in diameter.

Thanks man, there's no issues with the fine crush sneaking through?

The reason I'm asking is I want to get another basket built to get better circulation. Right now I have two baskets made for BIAB, one is 300 micron and one is 400. Some days are better than others but you have to watch really watch close and deff can't circ at full speed. I crush a little finer than recommended with a MM2 Pro mill.

So I want to make sure the next one is right, fine enough to filter but not so course it allows grain through and causes a dry fire on the element or messes with the chugger pump.