Noda Hop Drop N Roll Clone Idea

[lilbova3]

I'm looking for a Hop Drop N Roll clone. I came up with one but would like to get any feedback. I've had the beer a couple of times and I looked up on their website information about their beer. On their website they use 4 malts: 2-Row, English base malt (which I'm assuming is like a Maris Otter?), Vienna and wheat (for mouth feel). Their cans say what hops they use and they are added at 10 different times. Their website says they use hops in the mash, which I'm not going to do, boil and secondary (obviously). I BIAB so my grain count is going to be higher to offset the efficiency.

Batch size 3 gallons
1500 g (3.3 lb) 2-Row
1500 g (3.3 lb) Maris Otter
454 g (1 lb) Vienna
454 g (1 lb) Wheat
150 g (.33 lb) Carapils/Dextrine
150 g (.33 lb) Dextrose
135 g (.3 lb) Caramel 40 L
28 g (1 oz) Warrior 15.4 AA% 90 min boil
28 g (1 oz) Chinook 11.5 AA% 60 min boil
14 g (.5 oz) Centennial 9.2 AA% 30 min boil
21 g (.75 oz) Citra 11 AA% 0 min boil
21 g (.75 oz) Amarillo 8.2 AA% 0 min boil
14 g (.5 oz) Centennial 9.2 AA% Dry hop 12-14 days
14 g (.5 oz) Citra 11 AA% Dry hop 12-14 days
14 g (.5 oz) Amarillo 8.2 AA% Dry hop 12-14 days
8.5 g (.3 oz) Chinook 11.5 AA% Dry hop 5-7 days
8.5 g (.3 oz) Citra 11 AA% Dry hop 5-7 days
8.5 g (.3 oz) Amarillo 8.2 AA% Dry hop 5-7 days
Wyeast 1056 American Ale (probably 1.5-2 packages for this higher gravity beer)

OG 1.070
FG ~1.016ish range
ABV: 7.2
SRM: 7.7
IBU: 81
Mash at 151-152* for 60 mins
90 minute boil
Cool to 68-72*
Pitch yeast
Dry Hop

All I know is Citra and Amarillo are added very late in boil. All other hop additions, amounts and times are just guesses.

 

[mbbransc]

I'd love to find a workable clone for HDnR.

I think you have a good jump off point. Messing up my math skills basing it on a 3 gallon batch though.

From this article, they state they use 72 lbs of citra and amarillo in a 'big batch'.

http://www.charlottebeer.com/2014/07/14/five-myths-about-noda-brewings-hop-drop-n-roll/

Later in the next paragraph, they talk about losing 11 barrels from their 60 barrel batch due to the hops. I deduct a couple of things from that.


1) I'm going to assume that the 'big batch' is a 60 barrel batch. 72 lbs per 60 barrel batch scales down to ~3.1 oz per 5 gallon batch. With hop utilization, round that up to at least 3.5 oz, maybe 4 oz.

2) Giving that they are losing 1/6 of the batch to the hops, I have to believe most of the hops are in the dry hop.

 

[lilbova3]

I saw that article but didn't get that into it with the math. Kudos on that one! We'll see how it turns out. Brew day for this puppy won't be for another month or so. I'm also using washed yeast so we will see how it goes with that as well.

 

[BullGator]

I'd love to find a workable clone for HDnR.

I think you have a good jump off point. Messing up my math skills basing it on a 3 gallon batch though.

From this article, they state they use 72 lbs of citra and amarillo in a 'big batch'.

http://www.charlottebeer.com/2014/07/14/five-myths-about-noda-brewings-hop-drop-n-roll/

Later in the next paragraph, they talk about losing 11 barrels from their 60 barrel batch due to the hops. I deduct a couple of things from that.


1) I'm going to assume that the 'big batch' is a 60 barrel batch. 72 lbs per 60 barrel batch scales down to ~3.1 oz per 5 gallon batch. With hop utilization, round that up to at least 3.5 oz, maybe 4 oz.

2) Giving that they are losing 1/6 of the batch to the hops, I have to believe most of the hops are in the dry hop.

I pulled up the article and it actually states that it has 72lbs of citra per "big batch" alone. It states that it has about the same amount of amarillo hops. That means that you need to "about" double those numbers.

 

[mbbransc]

I didn't type it well, but was trying to convey those measurements were per hop type.

Thx for the clarification




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[lilbova3]

I'm brewing it today so we'll see how it turns out. I'll let you know in about 4-5 weeks.

 

[BullGator]

I took a shot at it myself based on this post and the limited info available. I'm brewing it tomorrow.

Type: All Grain
Batch Size: 12.00 gal
Boil Size: 15.52 gal
Boil Time: 60 min
End of Boil Vol: 13.52 gal
Final Bottling Vol: 11.25 gal

Date: 24 Aug 2014
Equipment: Stainless Kegs (10 Gal/37.8 L) - All Grain

12 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt (2 Row) US (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 38.9 %
12 lbs 4.0 oz Pale Malt, Maris Otter (Thomas Fawcett) (3.0 SRM) Grain 2 38.9 %
3 lbs Vienna Malt (3.5 SRM) Grain 3 9.5 %
3 lbs White Wheat Malt (2.4 SRM) Grain 4 9.5 %
1 lbs Corn Sugar (Dextrose) [Boil for 10 min](0.0 SRM) Sugar 19 3.2 %

0.50 oz Amarillo [9.30 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 5 1.2 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 6 1.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 7 1.7 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Mash 60.0 min Hop 8 2.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 9 7.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - First Wort 60.0 min Hop 10 9.5 IBUs
1.00 oz Warrior [15.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 11 19.9 IBUs
0.50 oz Chinook [13.00 %] - Boil 30.0 min Hop 12 6.6 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 20.0 min Hop 13 4.0 IBUs
0.50 oz Amarillo [9.30 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 14 3.1 IBUs
0.50 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 15 3.3 IBUs
0.50 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Boil 15.0 min Hop 16 5.1 IBUs
0.75 oz Amarillo [9.30 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 17 3.4 IBUs
0.75 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 18 5.6 IBUs
1.25 oz Amarillo [9.30 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 20 3.1 IBUs
1.25 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Boil 5.0 min Hop 21 4.7 IBUs
2.00 oz Amarillo [9.30 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 22 0.0 IBUs
2.00 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Boil 0.0 min Hop 23 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Amarillo [9.30 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 25 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Amarillo [9.30 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 26 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 27 0.0 IBUs
1.50 oz Citra [15.60 %] - Dry Hop 0.0 Days Hop 28 0.0 IBUs

Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) (made a 4L starter)

Est Original Gravity: 1.072 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.015 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 7.5 %
Bitterness: 82.0 IBUs
Est Color: 5.1 SRM

 

[Hello]

Has anyone contacted these guys? Before they won their gold medal they seemed down to earth and possibly open to helping. I assume it's the same now. I emailed them about 6 months ago and got no response but maybe I didn't ask the right questions.

 

[lilbova3]

I emailed their "info" email and put down my recipe and asked for suggestions. That was only a week ago with no reply yet. I am adding my second dry hop soon and then bottling Wednesday maybe. So I still have another 2.5-3 weeks left.

 

[mbbransc]

They released their Jam Session recipe in a book but I haven't had luck getting their HDnR recipe. I've asked before.


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[lilbova3]

I bottled the Hop Drop N Roll yesterday and it tasted pretty darn close. I believe my IBU is a little high but the flavor and aroma are there. The Citra and Amarillo hops added at flameout and in the dry hop are key.

I did only use Citra, Amarillo and Chinook in the dry hop, I ran out of Centennial. I only did one addition of Chinook and it was in the first go around of dry hopping. Next time I think I'd change the Chinook to Centennial.

I'll let you know how it tastes once carbonated in about 2 weeks. Really looking forward to that!

 

[mbbransc]

Did you stick with your original recipe except including some chinook in the dry hop instead of centennial?

 

[lilbova3]

Did you stick with your original recipe except including some chinook in the dry hop instead of centennial?

I stuck with the original recipe EXCEPT I did not add any CENTENNIAL to the dry hop. From the taste I had before bottling I would make sure to use Centennial in the dry hop and probably don't need Chinook. I only dry hopped for 8-10 days as well. About 5-6 days on first addition and 3-4 on second addition.

Remember this is a BIAB recipe as well and make sure to note my batch size. The IBU's are pretty high as well when calculated by the Tinseth IBU calculations but we will see how it tastes after conditioned. I'm tasting on Monday (9/15) and will give more feedback then.

 

[lilbova3]

In addition to my last post, I had .5 oz (14 g) of both Amarillo and Citra hops left so I just decided to add it all in for the second wave of dry hops. I didn't stick with the .3 oz (8.5 g).

 

[lilbova3]

So I tasted the clone today and I would say we have a pretty close clone here. I didn't get to taste it side by side a Hop Drop 'N Roll because they don't distribute outside of Charlotte right now! Here's some things I would change from my recollection of the beer.

1. Bump down the Wheat and Vienna a little. This clone had a pretty good mouthfeel to it. A little too much I would think. For my recipe I'd think of bumping both grains down to .5-.75 lbs. So instead of 10% make it closer to 5-6% of grain bill.
2. As I was worried about, it did come out pretty hoppy. I enjoy hoppy beers so this doesn't bother me. But probably not the best balance of maltiness and hop. But again, that doesn't bother me so much.

Things that are correct.
1. The smell/aroma is very very similar to Hop Drop 'N Roll. I can't stress enough how important the secondary addition of Citra and Amarillo are. They are what make Hop Drop 'N Roll I feel.
2. The color is perfect from what I remember as well.

Beer was primed with corn sugar slurry to produce a 2.2 volume, I use Northern Brewing website for this information.

Overall I really like this beer and I'll keep tweaking it until I get it just right. If you haven't had this beer and can't get it, make it now! IT. IS. SO. GOOD! Last but not least, attached should be an image. My first time posting one so I hope it works.

Let me know if you have any questions.

 

[lilbova3]

So I finally got my hands on the real thing, Hop Drop N Roll! I did a side-by-side comparison and wanted to show/explain what I thought. I will be explaining how my clone was compared to the original.

Appearance: The clone was eerily similar. Color, clarity and carbonation are all pretty similar.

Smell: The clone was spot on with the original. The Citra and Amarillo really come through. I love the smell of both together.

Palate: The body is medium and you get some mouthfeel from the Vienna and Wheat. I also feel the the beer is quite fizzy which adds to the mouthfeel.

Flavor: The flavor is very similar but mine finishes a little more bitter. The original even finished bitter than I remember. I wouldn't mind a little more balance but it's still very amazing. With my clone you get a hit of the dry hop flavor, can't really describe it, sorry, maybe citrus/lemony, slight piney and grassy and dank. But it's delicious. I know it's the Citra and Amarillo combination and I absolutely love it. Then you get smacked in the face with the hop bitterness. The bitterness and flavor linger around afterwards.

Here's a picture to compare the two. If you haven't had this beer, get it or brew it. I'M TELLING YOU, DO IT!

Sorry I don't know why the photo keeps coming in sideways and sorry they aren't in the same glasses to compare the beers a little better.

 

[lilbova3]

Brewed this again on Monday. Excited to see how it comes out! I love this brew.

 

[mbbransc]

I'm planning to brew it on 02/28 but I'm using Conan yeast and cutting the crystal in half. Not going for a clone so much as a truly awesome brew!

 

[lilbova3]

Let me know how it is! I'm interested to here how the Conan will add to the beer.

 

[mbbransc]

Brew day went great. Got 11gal fermenting away with Conan yeast right now. Let you know in a few weeks how it turns out.

 

[mbbransc]

Kegged tonight and it tastes fantastic! I'll grab a HDnR next week and do a side by side to see the differences but I love what Conan yeast does for any ipa.


View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1426212956.322212.jpg

 

[grodney]

Hi all -- I just registered so I could join the HDR clone discussion. I am a novice(1) homebrewer. I attempted to take lilbova3's recipe and convert it to a 5-gallon DME-extract recipe(2). I brewed it Sunday and it is happily fermenting away.

I have a question on the dry-hopping, as I've never done it before. The original recipe said some hops for 12-14 days, then more for 5-7 days. lilbova3 later said 5-6 days and 3-4 days. What exactly do these durations mean? Do I put the first in, then take them out before adding the 2nd ? Or do I leave the first addition in the whole time, and add the 2nd addition to them part-way through the first addition's duration?

Thanks for the help and the recipe!

Footnotes:
(1) Novice = About 80 batches in the last 12 years, but nothing other than 5-gallon extract recipes with a pound or 2 of specialty grains steeped for 30 mins. Nearly all of my beers have been from recipe kits from ebrew.com or Northern Brewer.
(2) I'd never heard of BiB and wasn't 100% certain on grain/DME conversions or batch-size conversions. I reduced the bittering hops (after attempted conversion) based on the follow-up posts in the thread. I'm afraid I left too much DME/grain/sugar in the recipe -- my OG was 1.085 -- oops. I'm just hoping it's drinkable when it's done.

 

[lilbova3]

I have a question on the dry-hopping, as I've never done it before. The original recipe said some hops for 12-14 days, then more for 5-7 days. lilbova3 later said 5-6 days and 3-4 days. What exactly do these durations mean? Do I put the first in, then take them out before adding the 2nd ? Or do I leave the first addition in the whole time, and add the 2nd addition to them part-way through the first addition's duration?

I originally planned on dry-hopping for a total of 14 days. So after fermentation is done and has reached your FG, or at least attenuated the proper amount, you can dry-hop. On day one of dry-hopping I added in the amount of hops I laid out in the recipe. Then after a week or so, so on day 7-9, I added the second addition of hops in. Do not remove the first addition of hops that are already in there. Let them stay. Adding a second addition of can just help intensify the aroma and help layer the aroma. It's not necessary, but many brewers do it.

After reading up and doing some research I decided to not dry-hop as long as I have in the past. There has been some testing done saying that you only need to dry-hop for 4 or 5 days. The shorter time period from dry-hopping to bottling will help keep the aroma stronger. Which is always a good thing for a dry-hopped IPA. So, now I only dry-hop my IPAs for 4-5 days. Sometimes I still add two additions or sometimes I'll just add one large addition and let it sit for 4-5 days.

Footnotes:
(1) Novice = About 80 batches in the last 12 years, but nothing other than 5-gallon extract recipes with a pound or 2 of specialty grains steeped for 30 mins. Nearly all of my beers have been from recipe kits from ebrew.com or Northern Brewer.
(2) I'd never heard of BiB and wasn't 100% certain on grain/DME conversions or batch-size conversions. I reduced the bittering hops (after attempted conversion) based on the follow-up posts in the thread. I'm afraid I left too much DME/grain/sugar in the recipe -- my OG was 1.085 -- oops. I'm just hoping it's drinkable when it's done.

If you've done 80 batches that's a lot! A lot more than I have! BIAB is brew in a bag. It's a little easier than sparging. You mash your grains in a bag, pull the bag and let it drain for a little bit, and then boom you have your wort ready to boil. If your OG is 1.085, your beer could come out a little cloying (meaning it will taste more malty, sugary than balanced or bitter). Just make sure to let it sit long enough and totally ferment. I'm assuming you used an American Ale yeast, if so then you are looking for an FG of 1.02 or lower. That will give you 75% attenuation or more. Also, to help with figuring out IBU's use this website http://realbeer.com/hops/bcalc_js.html . Put in your specific gravity at the top, I use the average of my pre-boil gravity and my original gravity (so let's say my pre-boil is 1.06 and my original gravity is 1.08 - my average is 1.07), and put in your final volume and input the numbers and you will get your IBUs.

Does that make any sense?

 

[mbbransc]

Concerning the dry hops... you'll have different opinions, techniques, etc based on the brewers. I do all my dry hopping in the keg now. I racked the beer last night into keg with my 1st dry hop addition. I'll leave that in there until I'm ready to tap that keg (probably another 7-10 days before I have a tap for it open). It's cold conditioning and carbing right now. When I tap the keg, I'll pull that dry hop addition and add a second. Just the way I do my IPAs and have experienced the greatest success. But like I said, everyone has their own way of doing it. Try different suggestions until you find something you think works best for you and your setup.

80 batches is twice as many as I've done; you can't call yourself a novice anymore!

I never had much luck brewing IPAs with extract. I had a terrible time getting them to attenuate enough to NOT be cloyingly sweet.

 

[grodney]

Thanks for the replies -- yes, they make sense. I don't take pre-boil gravity readings, but the IBU calc is saying 75 if I use my OG 1.085 -- so that's short of the 81 IBU on the HDR website.

I did use an American Ale yeast and will do my best to let it ferment out completely. I appreciate the different viewpoints and the additional detail on the dry-hopping. I'll give something a shot and we'll see what happens.

Thanks again!

Regarding "novice", I wonder what is the word for using Novice techniques but having done it a lot? Recreational? Really really recreational? Ha ha, I don't know.

Edit: Oh, I just checked my notes! My OG was 1.075 not 1.085. I think that's good news.

 

[mbbransc]

1.075 is much better. I overshot my gravity and hit 1.074. Still tasted great.

 

[grodney]

I transferred to secondary last night -- after 2 weeks in primary. Gravity was 1.016, down from 1.075. It tasted GREAT, so I'm feeling pretty optimistic. I'm almost scared to dry hop and mess it up at this point -- but I'll follow through with the original recipe, as it seems to have done really well so far.

 

[lilbova3]

You won't mess up the dry-hop or have the dry-hop mess up what you've done already! The dry-hop will only make it better, I promise. You'll love it! Glad to hear it's going well.

 

[Hello]

@mbbransc did you ever get a can to do a side by side?
Recipe looks good. One thing I've noticed in clone beers is that my IBUs often come out higher. Some commercial breweries look at the AAs of a hop once and continue to move ahead with that same AA in their recipes. Sometimes, as we know, the AAs change so it's possible that our IBUs will always be a bit off. My Fresh Squeezed was off by a lot but it still had an amazing taste and aroma.

 

[mbbransc]

No, I haven't done the side-by-side yet. I've been out of town the past week. I did pick up a fresh 4pk of HDnR though. I already drank (3) of them. My initial thoughts are that the original HDnR is more bitter. Of course, it could be 1) something with the Conan yeast rounding out the fruitiness more, hiding some IBUs or 2) homebrew still wasn't carbed up fully and only (13) days old when I tasted it.

I should have better info in a week or so. My brew partner has been drinking his keg of HDnR and has told me repeatedly it's the best IPA we've brewed to date.