No post fermentation finings is awesome.

[MSK_Chess]

I have been trying some experiments and I am really happy to state that as the LODO guys stated you DO NOT need post fermentation finings. Lagering can and does clear beer amazingly so. Here is a British Pale Ale that I brewed using LODO techniques. It utilised a small amount of wheat and was also dry hopped in the keg with about 30 grams (1 ounce) of Styrian Goldings (I have my own technique for this). It was partially fermented and transferred to keg to spund. Spunding took place when about 50% attenuation had been reached (this is more than is recommended but I am using British yeast which drops much faster than lager yeast and I don't want to risk under attenuation as the style should be dry) It was allowed to ferment out at room temperature with about 30psi setting on the spunding valve. Afterwards temperature was gradually reduced and It was lagered at -1C for two weeks and served at that temperature. I did not use any post fermentation finings like gelatin or polyclar730 and as you can see it is crystal clear and has NO chill haze.

 

[MSK_Chess]

I think i did use Brewtan B in the mash though and Brewbrite which is like a PVPP and Cargeenan 15min from end of boil. Its probably gonna be a fluke and I will never be able to repeat it!

 

[day_trippr]

So, gallotannins, carrageenan and polymerized nylon-like particles. But no cow hooves!

Winning!

Cheers!

 

[MSK_Chess]

So, gallotannins, carrageenan and polymerized nylon-like particles. But no cow hooves!

Winning!

Cheers!

thats right, veggie all the way!

 

[Dland]

My lagers are pretty clear. Two wirlfloc tablets in last 10 min of boil. That and some trub dumps, and shorten the dip tubes in the kegs 2/3-1 in, and a approx 30 day lager at 33-34*F.

I think wirlfloc is seaweed and cow hooves, correct me if I am wrong.

Not sure I want nylon in my beer, already stretching purity with the Fermcap S I sometimes use to prevent boil over in larger vol batches. "They" say it all drops out in trub, but who knows.

 

[day_trippr]

Whirlfloc is a combination of two forms of carrageenan. No animal bits...

Cheers!

 

[MSK_Chess]

I would be interested in learning from anyone with a background in chemistry if the low oxygen brewing process itself is a major contributor to chill proofing beer? As far as I can discern the elements which produce chill haze are in themselves sufficiently small so as to remain soluble. It only when they oxidize that they are able to chemically combine and produce a much less soluble entity which we observe as chill haze. It stand to reason therefore if there is no dissolved oxygen then these elements cannot chemically combine to form chill haze. Is this the case or is there something that I am missing or fail to understand?

 

[MSK_Chess]

One other thing if anyone knows anything about it is the idea of mashing for a higher gravity and then diluting it. This technique is used as far as I know by Guinness. Why should it be of interest to us? Well its known that the last runnings from sparging has the highest concentration of polyphenols (the precursors of chill haze). If we can mash with a higher gravity and cut the sparge short (while the gravity is still relatively high) then we can prevent any danger of transferring excessive amounts of polyphenols due to last runnings or over sparging. Does anyone think the idea has any merit?

 

[Dland]

Haha, my lazy "speed sparging" may pay off in clearer beer!

Seriously though, I'll take a little chill haze over adding polyvinylxxxx to my beer, pre or post fermentation.

 

[MSK_Chess]

PVPP is Reinheitsgebot compliant as its completely non soluble. Chill haze must be conquered!

 

[MSK_Chess]

I am not entirely sure what it is that causes excess polyphenols to be present in high concentration during last runnings? Maybe a shift in pH or some other factor? If anyone knows would be interested to learn.

 

[Dland]

Well, they say more tanic acids are extracted from the grist near the end of the sparge, for two possible reasons, the mash temp tends to rise near the end, and the grist has been steeping longer.

 

[homebrewer_99]

Well, they say more tanic acids are extracted from the grist near the end of the sparge, for two possible reasons, the mash temp tends to rise near the end, and the grist has been steeping longer.

My batch sparge is 5 mins...MAX. I run it for clarity and test the gravity before racking to the boil pot.

 

[MSK_Chess]

Well, they say more tanic acids are extracted from the grist near the end of the sparge, for two possible reasons, the mash temp tends to rise near the end, and the grist has been steeping longer.

Ok, I understand, thanks so much. I found this, its quite interesting.

The unoxidized, oxidizable polyphenols are less soluble and typically a late runnings problem. A large portion can survive (uncomplexed and unprecipitated) into the hopped wort, waiting for oxygen so as to cause haze and astringency problems by becoming tannoids. These are best controlled by terminating the sparge early at SG 1.010, keeping sparge water pH<5.5, keeping sparge temperature below 75ºC (as measured at the strike point on top of the grain bed and not as a reading on the hot liquor tank gauge) and crushing your malt coarse.

http://draymans.com/the-role-of-polyphenols-in-beer-haze-formation/

 

[Veets]

"was also dry hopped in the keg with about 30 grams (1 ounce) of Styrian Goldings (I have my own technique for this)". Secret technique?

 

[MSK_Chess]

lol not secret just I never read of it anywhere. Basically I put my hops in a hop strainer put them into the dry keg and purge the keg with bottled Co2. After I am convinced that its purged I then attach it to my FV and let the fermentation purge it with natural Co2. The idea is that all the time the hops will be in a Co2 environment and remain relatively fresh until transfer takes place a few days later. Transfer is of course done closed from FV to receiving Keg. Its just that I could see no other way of dry hopping without opening the Keg which is what we are scrupulously trying to avoid. What do you think, does it seem like a reasonable solution to you? If I could keep the keg cold while its being purged by the fermentation it would be an added bonus but I have no way of doing it at present.

 

[Veets]

lol not secret just I never read of it anywhere. Basically I put my hops in a hop strainer put them into the dry keg and purge the keg with bottled Co2. After I am convinced that its purged I then attach it to my FV and let the fermentation purge it with natural Co2. The idea is that all the time the hops will be in a Co2 environment and remain relatively fresh until transfer takes place a few days later. Transfer is of course done closed from FV to receiving Keg. Its just that I could see no other way of dry hopping without opening the Keg which is what we are scrupulously trying to avoid. What do you think, does it seem like a reasonable solution to you? If I could keep the keg cold while its being purged by the fermentation it would be an added bonus but I have no way of doing it at present.

Cool. Seems very reasonable. I'm trying the same thing with an IPA I brewed on Friday.
An extra charge of Amarillo pellets in the serving keg, ready to transfer beer onto. I didn't pre-purge with bottled CO2, though. Just relying on CO2 from the fermenter.
Also, using floating dip tubes in both the fermenter keg and serving keg.

 

[Veets]

Cool. Seems very reasonable. I'm trying the same thing with an IPA I brewed on Friday.
An extra charge of Amarillo pellets in the serving keg, ready to transfer beer onto. I didn't pre-purge with bottled CO2, though. Just relying on CO2 from the fermenter.
Also, using floating dip tubes in both the fermenter keg and serving keg.

Oh yeah, and no strainer bag either (floating dip tube)

 

[MSK_Chess]

Please forgive my ignorance but I have never heard of a floating dip tube. Is it the same kind of thing in the Aussie made Fermentasaurus?

 

[Veets]

Please forgive my ignorance but I have never heard of a floating dip tube. Is it the same kind of thing in the Aussie made Fermentasaurus?

Yes, I think so. There are a couple of good threads, including here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/index.php?threads/275638/