No Chill Case Study

[Tonedef131]

My comment on submitting no chill beers to experts means that I think the process would get more recognition if it won awards, or at least got professional feedback to indicate if there is any problem with the process.

Just having some people drink your beer doesn't carry the same weight as being recognized by trained professionals (BJCP judges), who can compare it directly with other beers of similar style.

Only when this type of feedback is had will anyone take this seriously. There are too many naysayers in this hobby (even with the large number of experimenters) to try and make a push for it's use without that kind of attention.

I am interested enough to pursue this. I think I am going to do a ten gallon batch, so it is the exact same wort. Transfer half of it to a vessel without chilling, then chill the other half in a traditional method. Ferment them out at the same temperature with the same pitch of yeast.

I am an active BJCP judge as are 4 other guys in my club. I would issue a completely blind triangle test and see if we can pick up any differences between the two beers. I would also be willing to send these into a competition, probably whatever was going on in the surrounding states when it was ready.

 

[The Pol]

I am interested enough to pursue this. I think I am going to do a ten gallon batch, so it is the exact same wort. Transfer half of it to a vessel without chilling, then chill the other half in a traditional method. Ferment them out at the same temperature with the same pitch of yeast.

I am an active BJCP judge as are 4 other guys in my club. I would issue a completely blind triangle test and see if we can pick up any differences between the two beers. I would also be willing to send these into a competition, probably whatever was going on in the surrounding states when it was ready.

There will be one problem with splitting the wort... there will be unequal hop utilization... so they will taste quite different if you have late hop additions. The worts will be different, even from the same boil

 

[Tonedef131]

There will be one problem with splitting the wort... there will be unequal hop utilization... so they will taste quite different if you have late hop additions. The worts will be different, even from the same boil

I will likely do this with a bitter I have coming up soon, so it will only have a 60min and a 30min addition. Although I don't care that much because I will be looking more for flaws that are commonly brought up during these threads. If the hop utilization is different then so be it...byproduct of the process.

Are you guys putting these in the fridge or just letting them hang out at room temp?

 

[Homercidal]

There will be one problem with splitting the wort... there will be unequal hop utilization... so they will taste quite different if you have late hop additions. The worts will be different, even from the same boil

Damn, you're right. Plus, I think it would be better to chill the first half, and then package the no chill. Because, anyone who is using a chiller will be getting that puppy flowing right away. Having to wait to transfer the no chill half will skew the results too.

Obviously, this is not possible for those who use an IC.

 

[The Pol]

I will likely do this with a bitter I have coming up soon, so it will only have a 60min and a 30min addition. Although I don't care that much because I will be looking more for flaws that are commonly brought up during these threads. If the hop utilization is different then so be it...byproduct of the process.

Are you guys putting these in the fridge or just letting them hang out at room temp?

I have found that a 65F ambient temp will get 5.5 gallons to 68F in 18 hours

70F ambient temp takes 24 hours or so to get to 70F

I generally sit mine outside overnight, if it is hot, the ferment fridge at 65F

 

[Tonedef131]

Damn, you're right. Plus, I think it would be better to chill the first half, and then package the no chill. Because, anyone who is using a chiller will be getting that puppy flowing right away. Having to wait to transfer the no chill half will skew the results too.

Obviously, this is not possible for those who use an IC.

Well I have a plate chiller that I stopped using but I could bust it out for this. Just let the whole lot sit there while I pull 5 gal through the chiller, then put the remaining 5 gal into the bucket.

Where are you guys getting these "cubes" and are you just dumping the whole lot into it or transferring through heat resistant tubing?

 

[The Pol]

Well I have a plate chiller that I stopped using but I could bust it out for this. Just let the whole lot sit there while I pull 5 gal through the chiller, then put the remaining 5 gal into the bucket.

Where are you guys getting these "cubes" and are you just dumping the whole lot into it or transferring through heat resistant tubing?

US Plastics sells a thing called a Winpak... 6 gallon HDPE container. I use silicone to transfer to the bottom of the container from my BK. I know, HSA doesnt exist right? Well, with all of the unknowns with his process, I try to keep the potential variables to a minimum.

 

[The Pol]

Winpak® Tight Head Pail - US Plastic Corporation

Here is a link to the 6 gallon. If you are not going to store it, you can use it and ferment in it. I have found that the headspace is such that you will be smart to use a blow off with it, or foam control.

EDIT: Also, the hole in the top requires a #11.5 stopper, if you arent drilling a hole for the airlock/blowoff

 

[Homercidal]

Ok, so I probably wont' be doing this in the very near future, but it's still very interesting. So now that my pipeline is full, I will probably brew again after I get bored welding on my car, or if someone I know wants to have a brew day. My next batch ought to be a Belgian Wit, which uses late hop additions (well, orange peel and coriander), so that probably wont' work very well.

Anyway, I'm still very curious about the DMS and Chill Haze issue. DMS being the more important to me. I really don't mind a bit of haze. I was reading up on Jamil's WIC thingy and I found something interesting in his description of it's benefits. Check it out:

"DMS is often described as a cooked corn aroma that often plagues lager brewers. The thing is, the lighter pilsner malts contain more SMM (S-Methylmethionine), which gets hydrolyzed to DMS during the boil. Yes, this gets driven off, but unless you're doing 100 minute or longer boils, there is still some SMM left behind. The neat thing is, if you can get the temperature of the wort below 140F (60C), then SMM will not be converted to DMS. The whirlpool immersion chiller will drop the temp of the wort below 140F (60C) very quickly, resulting in far less DMS in the finished beer. On the other hand, counter flow and plate chillers continue to hydrolyze SMM into DMS while sitting there at near boiling."

So, it really seems that even Jamil admits that DMS might not be a big concern for Ale brewers, or those not brewing lighter styles, just as we've heard from some in this thread. Also I believe I read that in Palmer's book last night, although of course he advocates limiting the possibility as much as you can.

 

[The Pol]

Ok, so I probably wont' be doing this in the very near future, but it's still very interesting. So now that my pipeline is full, I will probably brew again after I get bored welding on my car, or if someone I know wants to have a brew day. My next batch ought to be a Belgian Wit, which uses late hop additions (well, orange peel and coriander), so that probably wont' work very well.

Anyway, I'm still very curious about the DMS and Chill Haze issue. DMS being the more important to me. I really don't mind a bit of haze. I was reading up on Jamil's WIC thingy and I found something interesting in his description of it's benefits. Check it out:

"DMS is often described as a cooked corn aroma that often plagues lager brewers. The thing is, the lighter pilsner malts contain more SMM (S-Methylmethionine), which gets hydrolyzed to DMS during the boil. Yes, this gets driven off, but unless you're doing 100 minute or longer boils, there is still some SMM left behind. The neat thing is, if you can get the temperature of the wort below 140F (60C), then SMM will not be converted to DMS. The whirlpool immersion chiller will drop the temp of the wort below 140F (60C) very quickly, resulting in far less DMS in the finished beer. On the other hand, counter flow and plate chillers continue to hydrolyze SMM into DMS while sitting there at near boiling."

So, it really seems that even Jamil admits that DMS might not be a big concern for Ale brewers, or those not brewing lighter styles, just as we've heard from some in this thread. Also I believe I read that in Palmer's book last night, although of course he advocates limiting the possibility as much as you can.

Yes, I listened to the DMS broadcast when I was beginning no chill... and the SMM in Pilsner malt is the real DMS issue from what I hear, though never tested it. They also claim that even with Pilsner malt, a vigorous boil for 90+ minutes will make the DMS not much of an issue anyway. Though, not tested in my garage.

Apparently even Pale Malt 2-row is kilned to a degree that reduces the SMM to a negligible amount.

I will admit that with my beers I was doing 90 minute boils even before no chill. When I started no chilling, I kept the 90 minute boil and have acutally increased it to 100. Now, if I were using propane, Id probably reduce it to save $$ and see how far I could go, maybe 60 is enough. Though, I did notice an improvement in my beer when going from 60-90 minute boils.

 

[Homercidal]

I have never boiled for longer than 60 minutes.

 

[hal2814]

I am interested enough to pursue this. I think I am going to do a ten gallon batch, so it is the exact same wort. Transfer half of it to a vessel without chilling, then chill the other half in a traditional method. Ferment them out at the same temperature with the same pitch of yeast.

I am an active BJCP judge as are 4 other guys in my club. I would issue a completely blind triangle test and see if we can pick up any differences between the two beers. I would also be willing to send these into a competition, probably whatever was going on in the surrounding states when it was ready.

Excellent! If I may make a suggestion, try to keep enough samples on hand to continue to test over an extended period.

Also, we interrupt the no chill debate with some news: the no chill IPA (our test subject) is completely clear at 38F. Taste results will happen this evening along with the mass upload of images. I'll have to scale them down and would rather do all of that at the same time for this post.

So besides basic viability, the "creamed corn" off-flavor is my primary concern, correct?

Also, the results are going to go on the first post as an edit if possible. I'll add a final post to alert everyone when the results are officially in.

 

[MMW]

I'm not really sure what to look for in a sample this old. What does unstable beer taste like, anyway?

Very interested in the results.

 

[smellysell]

My Winpaks are finally going to be here Thursday. Can't wait to give this a try!

 

[The Pol]

I'm not really sure what to look for in a sample this old. What does unstable beer taste like, anyway?

Very interested in the results.

Well, I think with a sample like this you will be looking for staling. Carboard taste? The corn would be DMS, I suppose you can look for that but it shouldnt be more prevelant over a long period than it would be when the beer is young, as far as I know.

Obviously this old of an IPA, will lose a lot of the hop character, but look for off flavors, not absence of flaver persay.

 

[bkov]

i have been doing no-chiller for awhile......in the winter when i dont want to use the outdoor hose, and then my chiller broke so i havent been using it either

i usually just put the lid on the pot after then wait untill late that night to transfer to primary

 

[ohiobrewtus]

I doubt he holds a patent on the device. Check the page on Mr. Malty where he states he does not benefit financially from the WIC, or even better, email him and ask him yourself. I've done so many times and always found him to be pleasant and cordial.

I gotta say, Pol, your arrogance is pretty astounding.

Yah, I am arrogant, welcome to most of HBT. Because I claim what? That I know better? That the processes I use are better? Best? The only? Must haves? Must use? Anything else is inferior?

Thanks for making this all about you as usual.

Have fun stroking your ego.

It would be more fun, if youd stop by and stroke it for me....

Now *THAT'S* entertainment!

 

[hal2814]

reuslts are in. back up to page 1, post 1.

 

[The Pol]

Well... Id expect it to be clear. Most no chill guys have not had any lingering haze. I guess since it was flat, there was obviously no CO2, and there would probably be ample O2 in there. That being said, would we expect anything OTHER than cardboard beer in this case?

Does this prove anything, since the beer was obviously oxidized from the poor seal?

 

[beerocd]

Now *THAT'S* entertainment!

I don't think there's enough of this type of entertainment; everyone's too damn nice on this board.

I've done no chill out of necessity; but if I have the time I run a pond pump and and IC so I can pitch and fuggedaboutit.


-OCD

 

[hal2814]

Well... Id expect it to be clear. Most no chill guys have not had any lingering haze. I guess since it was flat, there was obviously no CO2, and there would probably be ample O2 in there. That being said, would we expect anything OTHER than cardboard beer in this case?

Does this prove anything, since the beer was obviously oxidized from the poor seal?

You would expect it to be clear, but many here are convinced that no-chill = hazy beer. I have shown a second example where that is not the case. It's not an ideal example, but oxidation isn't going to make chill haze go away. Like I mentioned in the first post, this proves nothing. But it does add additional evidence to the argument that no chill beer can be free of chill haze. I was hoping to add information on flavor profile but that obviously didn't happen.

I would point out that I do get chill haze in some batches. I don't actively try to stop chill haze. I don't consider it a big deal. But they are all batches I hurry and cut corners on. I would wager any of them would have chill haze despite my chilling method. I rarely get chill haze on batches I put any sort of care into.

 

[Tonedef131]

Bumpin this because I will be proceeding with the experiment this Sunday. So far here is the plan, some of you no chill veterans let me know if I am doing anything wrong or what I should change in the process. It will be a Best Bitter in the 1.045 range with a split starter of Thames Valley. So ten gallons split, with the exact same starter split between the two of them. I am trying to get this as consistent between the two of these, the recipe will be as follows:

Amount ItemType
16.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)Grain
1.00 lb Amber Malt (22.0 SRM)Grain
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)
2.00 oz Challenger [6.30 %] (60 min)Hops
1.00 oz Challenger [6.30 %] (30 min)Hops

The plan so far is to mash and boil as normal and run through a plate chiller into one fermenter, then bypass the chiller and run the rest into a separate fermenter. I will aerate and pitch the yeast in the chilled half, while the no chill will rest in an air conditioned room overnight then into a fridge to get down to pitching temps. Once into the mid 60s I will give it the exact same aeration and pitch of yeast as the chilled portion received.

 

[The Pol]

Bumpin this because I will be proceeding with the experiment this Sunday. So far here is the plan, some of you no chill veterans let me know if I am doing anything wrong or what I should change in the process. It will be a Best Bitter in the 1.045 range with a split starter of Thames Valley. So ten gallons split, with the exact same starter split between the two of them. I am trying to get this as consistent between the two of these, the recipe will be as follows:

Amount ItemType
16.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM)Grain
1.00 lb Amber Malt (22.0 SRM)Grain
1.00 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (40.0 SRM)
2.00 oz Challenger [6.30 %] (60 min)Hops
1.00 oz Challenger [6.30 %] (30 min)Hops

The plan so far is to mash and boil as normal and run through a plate chiller into one fermenter, then bypass the chiller and run the rest into a separate fermenter. I will aerate and pitch the yeast in the chilled half, while the no chill will rest in an air conditioned room overnight then into a fridge to get down to pitching temps. Once into the mid 60s I will give it the exact same aeration and pitch of yeast as the chilled portion received.

Looks good to me, be aware that you will very likley get 80 mins utilization out of your 60 min hops and about 50 mins utilization out of your 30 min. hops. This is based on some reading and charts I saw in BYO a while back, and the results that I have gotten as well.

Kudos to you for giving this a shot.

 

[Tonedef131]

Looks good to me, be aware that you will very likley get 80 mins utilization out of your 60 min hops and about 50 mins utilization out of your 30 min. hops. This is based on some reading and charts I saw in BYO a while back, and the results that I have gotten as well.

Kudos to you for giving this a shot.

Not much I can do about the utilization, I guess I'll just have to take that into consideration when tasting them. However, I will be separating them from the wort, so does what you said still apply? I will be using a hop stopper in the kettle so the hot break and hop trub into the fermenter should be minimal.

You guys got my curiosity up. Even if it makes as good of beer as a traditional method it's not something I will be making a practice of since it is actually less convenient on the system I have. But there has been a lot of discussion about it and homebrewing is all about experimentation...right?

 

[bakins]

FWIW, I've adjusted all my recipes to no-chill based on what Pol said - it seems to match what I taste spot on. I'm dry hopping more than I used to - all my 10 minute and under additions. I just drop them in my primary after about 10 days.

Clarity still not an issue on the 6 beers I've no chilled (still got some in primary). A few were overhopped, but I've adjusted for that.

 

[The Pol]

As far as removing the hops from the wort... well I have been using whole leaf hops, so they are separated as well. The problem is, the hop oils are not in the hops, they end up in the wort, thus the bitterness and flavor even when the hops are absent.

For this reason, you will still get utilization in the "cube", about 20 minutes wort or so, because the hop oils are present and noticeable utilization is still taking place at temps above say 170F.

 

[Droot]

So now I can cut my brew time to 40 Minutes?

I will have real results on Aug 9th.


David

 

[Tonedef131]

As far as removing the hops from the wort... well I have been using whole leaf hops, so they are separated as well. The problem is, the hop oils are not in the hops, they end up in the wort, thus the bitterness and flavor even when the hops are absent.

For this reason, you will still get utilization in the "cube", about 20 minutes wort or so, because the hop oils are present and noticeable utilization is still taking place at temps above say 170F.

I figured. Oh well, not much I can do about that. It will actually add an interesting aspect to the experiment, because you can try them side by side to see how the bitterness/hop character is effected.

 

[The Pol]

I figured. Oh well, not much I can do about that. It will actually add an interesting aspect to the experiment, because you can try them side by side to see how the bitterness/hop character is effected.

Excellent, that will be useful

 

[Tonedef131]

The experiment is underway. I brewed up ten gallons of that bitter and 5 of it is already fermenting away and the other 5 is sitting in a keg in an air conditioned room cooling down. I ran the first half through the plate chiller and pitched at 65, going to ferment at 68. The other half I just ran directly into a keg and I will give it the same ferment temps once it is cool enough. This was the first time I have used my plate chiller in months, forgot how much of a pain in my ass it is to clean.

To be honest at this point in the process I am not real comfortable with it. Everything went flawlessly and I think it should be fine but I guess it's just the feeling of adjusting to something new. As I said before this method is actually less convenient for me so it's something I likely won't persue even if it makes just as good of beer. But it certainly will be interesting for a side by side and as a point of reference when the topic comes up. I'll post back when there is something to say.