nitro blues...can't get a tank/fill

[odie]

well my quest for nitro has hit a roadblock...

only 2 places in town (Airgas & Praxair) offer beer gas mix and it's tank "exchange only", no refills, so all my 20# are useless. There is no plant in town that produces nitro mix so it all comes in from Houston area in bulk 250 CF bottles (about 5ft tall). Much bigger than I really want but it would last years probably.

I guess I'm stuck with trying to find a used massive bottle on craigslist to then exchange with. The 2 suppliers in town won't "sell" or do a deposit on bottles...at least that's what the guy at the counter says. Guess they are only in the "contents" business and not the "container" business?

Is this typical? in smaller cities? How does everyone else get their nitro?

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Just use straight nitrogen or argon for dispense-- and you could swap in one of your 20lb tanks for one of the other gas tanks. Carb to your desired level with CO2, then serve on nitro or argon.

The pressure of the nitro or argon fills the headspace as the keg empties, so your beer remains carbed enough provided it doesn't take months to finish.

I did it this way when I ran a nitro faucet, and it served me well. YMMV

 

[9Kegs]

Look for a local beverage service that caters to the bars in your area that might be willing to fill your tank. That is how I get mine refilled. Homebrew club websites may have a listing of gas suppliers.

 

[odie]

I did a bunch of nitro searches...that was my thoughts since nitro doesn't dissolve into the beer...

but everyone is saying it will go flat as the nitrogen fills the head space as you tap the beer? this actually doesn't make any sense to me....

if the beer is carbed to the desired volume of CO2 before putting it on pure nitrogen, which supposedly will not dissolve into the beer, then how does any CO2 ever come back out of the beer if the nitrogen is keeping 30-40 psi pressure on the beer? As the level of beer drops the regulator still has 30-40psi pressure on it. You are only initially carbing with a few pounds of CO2, so how is that ever gonna bleed back out of the beer if you have a constant 30-40 psi nitrogen in the headspace?

 

[odie]

I would think that once the beer is carbed to whatever volume/psi you desire....then switching to straight nitro at any pressure above your initial carb pressure will not further carb the beer? That's if nitrogen truly does not dissolve into the beer...

And crap...I just got my last empty filled with CO2...I have like 4 20s....might be a while before I have an empty one...

 

[9Kegs]

http://www.draughtquality.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/01/One-Pager-The-Facts-About-25-75-Gas1.pdf

This read might have the answers.

 

[odie]

hmm...a quick read that lacks any details. I'm not saying it's incorrect...It's just I hate when something is stated "that's the way it is" without explaining why it's that way...but that article also talks about the nitro/co2 mix, not straight nitrogen.

I admit I don't understand the nitro thing fully yet...I only recently found out nitrogen doesn't dissolve into the beer...but that alone makes me question the reason beer would go flat or over carb on pure nitrogen (not on a mix).

I can see a difference in the methodology if you are planning to use pure nitro vice beer gas...you would have to plan to carb to a different CO2 volume. With a gas mix at 30-40 PSI, that 25% of CO2 is still going to dissolve into the beer as the regulator feeds the mix into the keg as the beer level drops. If anything I would think that carb levels would increase as the keg is emptied. If pure nitrogen truly will not dissolve into the beer, I would think there should be no change in carbonation once the keg is switched from CO2 to Nitrogen at the same PSI or higher...…

but what do I know so I'm asking...lol

everyone knows how to drive...few understand the 4 stroke engine cycle, lift & duration on a camshaft, how a carb works,

I know how to drink beer...I just don't know Nitro....yet

 

[9Kegs]

Suck, Squeeze, Bang, Blow

Even with the pressure in the keg from the nitrogen, CO2 still finds its way into the headspace . You need the balance of CO2 trying to enter solution and exit.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]The pressure of the nitro or argon fills the headspace as the keg empties, so your beer remains carbed enough provided it doesn't take months to finish. [...]

The presence of nitrogen or argon or both in the head space will absolutely not prevent dissolved CO2 from breaking out to fill the increasing head space and maintain the CO2 partial pressure equilibrium. That said, perhaps given stouts on nitro are carbed so low the ever decreasing CO2 content might not be evident...

Cheers!

 

[odie]

I think Cyberbackpacker is doing the initial carbing using CO2 and carbing to a volume as appropriate to a serving on CO2 thru a regular faucet...and then once fully carbed to that volume, switching to pure nitro at a much higher pressure to push it thru a stout faucet?

 

[day_trippr]

Right. And that beer can be counted on to steadily lose carbonation as the keg empties.
That's why beer gas was invented

Cheers!

 

[b-boy]

Fluids and gasses like equilibrium, and always try to get there. So, your CO2 wants to be uniformly distributed in you tank. Because of that, it will find its way out of solution into the headspace.

 

[cyberbackpacker]

...your beer remains carbed enough.... YMMV

As I said before, it stays carbed "enough" if consumed in a relatively short period of time; additionally I was predominantly serving dark beers and irish/scotch ales via the argon with a stout faucet (and I was carbing to about 2.1-2.3 vols of CO2 before going on the argon for serving, and also disconnected from Argon when done for the session).

Lastly, I am a huge "real ale" fan, so what some might be perceived as "flat" definitely differs too...

 

[crane]

If you can get nitrogen then you could run a gas mixer to create your own 25/75 blend. Not sure how much a gas mixer for this application would cost, but hey it's a potential solution.

 

[odie]

Well "short time" needs to be defined...and disconnected when not in service throws everything out the window...the idea is to be able to leave everything hooked up and pour at a moments notice...

I've heard of guys just cranking up the CO2 to serve and then back it down when done as an alternative...about the same it sounds like...

Gas mixer would be interesting...not sure cost or practicality...

 

[9Kegs]

https://www.micromatic.com/pro-line-gas-blender/micro-matic-stout-gas-blender-1-blend-mm100s

 

[Wayne1]

https://mcdantim.com/products/beverage/blenders

These blenders can be customized

 

[cyberbackpacker]

Well "short time" needs to be defined...and disconnected when not in service throws everything out the window...the idea is to be able to leave everything hooked up and pour at a moments notice...

Mine were typically gone in about 6 weeks. Disconnecting was just popping off the ball lock disconnect (10 seconds including opening the door of the kegerator; 20 seconds to reconnect including opening the door and squirting starsan on post and disconnect)!

What might work for you is to get an intertap flow control faucet and their "add-on" nitro spout. With this you may be able to just have it on CO2 carbed to normal pressures, and then use the flow control to slow it down enough before it hits the restrictor plate in the nitro spout.

 

[odie]

I just went to pick up a cheap 20# for $20...y not? What’s another tank? Lol

Anyway the guy had a nitrous tank he gave me for free...I’m thinking the little blue bottles in a car...nope...big azz tank...might be able to exchange it for a beer gas tank [emoji848]

 

[odie]

https://www.micromatic.com/pro-line-gas-blender/micro-matic-stout-gas-blender-1-blend-mm100s

Nice but some serious coin...if I ran a brewpub [emoji848]

 

[Jag75]

I have same issue where I live . I cant fill any bottle , its exchange only. I found a brand new bottle for cheap and traded it in. Sucked having a brand new bottle just to let it go . I could have got back the same bottle but it would have taken some time to get it back.

The answer to your question is yes its quicker to carb using co2 then switch to your gas blend. If you used 100% nitro your beer would go flat .

 

[odie]

this is the most clear explanation I've found and makes the most sense to me...

https://beerandbrewing.com/dictionary/wFqYVmmAFp/

set the nitro mix's CO2 portion/percengate of the pressure to match your beer's pressure at whatever temp you are serving at your desired CO2 volume...after your beer is already carbed to your desired volume is my guess

how I read that article is like this....

say you like your stout at 5psi normally (for your given kegerator serving temperature and desired CO2 volume). With a 75/25 mix you would need to serve at 20psi to maintain a constant CO2 volume. 25% of 20psi is 5psi, thus the nitro mix CO2 pressure matches your beer's CO2 pressure of 5 PSI. As the keg dispenses and more beer gas is fed into the keg at 20 PSI, the headspace maintains that 5 PSI CO2 pressure so CO2 neither leaves or enters the beer.

If you like your stouts at 8 PSI normally, then you would just serve at 32 PSI ( 25% of 32 PSI is 8) on a 75/25 mix if you went nitro with a stout faucet.

Am I understanding this correctly. Somehow the Nitro and CO2 pressures act independently upon the beer? Not sure how that is but apparently that's what Dalton's Law is all about.

 

[Jag75]

I couldnt tell you what my co2 volume is in my stout but I do push @35psi.

 

[odie]

b-boy, if I'm interpreting your statement correctly...

CO2 will uniformly distribute within the keg regardless of pressure or presence of other gas? OK that makes sense why beer gas works the way it does...I guess we are not really carbing to given PSI but instead to a given "volume" of CO2 dissolved into the entire vessel? A given volume of CO2 within the keg will be evenly distributed in both the liquid and gaseous areas. As the keg is drained an EQUAL amount of CO2 must be replaced within the fixed volume of the keg? With CO2 everything is one constant pressure for a given temp and volume?

With Nitro mix the headspace pressure is irrelevant. The volume percentage of CO2 in the head space must equal the CO2 volume percentage in the liquid. As the beer is dispensed with dissolved CO2, the airspace volume increases and the inflow of Nitro/CO2 mix must contain the same amount/volume of new CO2 into the keg as left the keg in the beer you just poured. Whatever amount/volume of nitrogen is involved is irrelevant to the issue of carbonation. It's only a matter of calculating the required PSI of 75/25 mix will provide that desired constant total CO2 volume within the keg.

As far as making the stout/creamer faucet working the way it does with the restriction disc, Nitrogen is substituted for 75% of the total gas volume in the head space in order to increase the serving pressure (not carbonation level) to make the creamer function of the nozzle work correctly without increasing the percentage amount of CO2 of the liquid.

Am I grasping the concept correctly?

 

[Jag75]

Shoot man , sounds good to me lol . It makes sense as to have 25% Co2 in gas blend because Nitro doesnt get absorbed in the beer . All I know is I love a stout on Nitro. It took me about 6 days but I got it to cascade for about 1 min . Fixing to make another in a few weeks .

 

[b-boy]

b-boy, if I'm interpreting your statement correctly...

CO2 will uniformly distribute within the keg regardless of pressure or presence of other gas? OK that makes sense why beer gas works the way it does...I guess we are not really carbing to given PSI but instead to a given "volume" of CO2 dissolved into the entire vessel? A given volume of CO2 within the keg will be evenly distributed in both the liquid and gaseous areas. As the keg is drained an EQUAL amount of CO2 must be replaced within the fixed volume of the keg? With CO2 everything is one constant pressure for a given temp and volume?

With Nitro mix the headspace pressure is irrelevant. The volume percentage of CO2 in the head space must equal the CO2 volume percentage in the liquid. As the beer is dispensed with dissolved CO2, the airspace volume increases and the inflow of Nitro/CO2 mix must contain the same amount/volume of new CO2 into the keg as left the keg in the beer you just poured. Whatever amount/volume of nitrogen is involved is irrelevant to the issue of carbonation. It's only a matter of calculating the required PSI of 75/25 mix will provide that desired constant total CO2 volume within the keg.

As far as making the stout/creamer faucet working the way it does with the restriction disc, Nitrogen is substituted for 75% of the total gas volume in the head space in order to increase the serving pressure (not carbonation level) to make the creamer function of the nozzle work correctly without increasing the percentage amount of CO2 of the liquid.

Am I grasping the concept correctly?

Sounds good. Basically - the gasses work independent of each other.

 

[odie]

Jag75....6 days of what? did you carb with a nitro mix only for 6 days and pour? Did you carb with CO2 first and then hooked nitro and spent 6 days of constantly tweaking your reg to get it to pour right?

the devil is in the details...lol

 

[Jag75]

I hooked it up to co2 . Kept low psi. After a few days or so I hooked it up to my gas blend . It wasnt ready so I cranked up the psi for another day then back on the blend. It took about 5 days to get it just right . It was play it by ear kinda thing.

 

[odie]

Scored a tank of nitro at Praxair. They swapped my nitrous oxide tank with no issues. Airgas was a pain and wouldn’t swap and said I need to set up a tank lease [emoji848]
Now I need to rig up a 25ft hose and some kinda disconnect on the outside of the kegerator View attachment 649075View attachment 649076View attachment 649077