NHC Category Help

[savestheclash]

Hi guys,

Entered a beer into a local comp this weekend to get some feedback before I ship the same beer off to the National Homebrew Comp. Good feedback except I got dinged heavily for entering into the wrong category.

It's certainly not a standard beer:

Sweet stout base with dark cherries and tart cherry juice added, fermented with sour yeasts (Belgian Sour Blend)

I entered initially into the Fruit Beer category, but am now thinking it lies either in either 17C. Flanders Brown Ale/Oud Bruin or 16E. Belgian Specialty Ale

Any insights or thoughts on other categories would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

 

[morticaixavier]

Hi guys,

Entered a beer into a local comp this weekend to get some feedback before I ship the same beer off to the National Homebrew Comp. Good feedback except I got dinged heavily for entering into the wrong category.

It's certainly not a standard beer:

Sweet stout base with dark cherries and tart cherry juice added, fermented with sour yeasts (Belgian Sour Blend)

I entered initially into the Fruit Beer category, but am now thinking it lies either in either 17C. Flanders Brown Ale/Oud Bruin or 16E. Belgian Specialty Ale

Any insights or thoughts on other categories would be greatly appreciated.

Cheers!

sounds like a 16E to me.

 

[bob1852]

In my opinion, the fruit would kick it out of 17C.

In fact, 16E specifically says "Fruit-based Flanders Red/Brown" as a style for 16E.

23 wouldn't apply, as "Note that certain other specialty categories exist in the guidelines. Belgian Specialties or clones of specific Belgian beers should be entered in Category 16E" is listed in the guidelines...

 

[savestheclash]

I like the looks of 16E - obviously description is key here, anything you would change about this?:

Rich stout base, dark cherries, fermented with Belgian sour yeast blend

 

[CadillacAndy]

What is the base stout recipe? I'd avoid using "rich" if possible. Maybe something like "Sour Belgian Stout with cherries".

 

[bob1852]

What is the base stout recipe? I'd avoid using "rich" if possible. Maybe something like "Sour Belgian Stout with cherries".

I agree.

You'll need to use whatever sub-category of stout (Cat. 13) it is.

 

[CadillacAndy]

I agree.

You'll need to use whatever sub-category of stout (Cat. 13) it is.

You don't necessarily have to say which sub category it is, especially if it doesn't quite fit any of them, but if it does fit squarely in to a sub category, it gives the judges something more to go off of.

"Belgian Stout" isn't a BJCP defined category, but beers in these categories (16E, 20A, 22C, etc) don't have to be based on classic/BJCP defined styles. The wording is kind of confusing in the guidelines, and even a discussion on the BJCP Facebook lead to very mixed results. I ended up emailing Gordon Strong to get a definitive answer.

You could even call it something like a "Sour Belgian black ale with Cherries" if there is very low roast. Calling it a "stout" may make the judges look for roast/chocolate/coffee flavors. I've had very good luck with a Russian River Supplication inspired beer that I've been calling "Sour Belgian Brown Ale with sour cherries aged in oak".

I think defining beers to do really well in competition is harder than brewing them! I've entered something like 116 beers in 20+ competitions in the past year, and these specialty categories can be tricky, but having a really good description, that doesn't give the judges reason to ding you is what really sets a beer apart... that, and being a really, really damn good beer.

 

[savestheclash]

You don't necessarily have to say which sub category it is, especially if it doesn't quite fit any of them, but if it does fit squarely in to a sub category, it gives the judges something more to go off of.

"Belgian Stout" isn't a BJCP defined category, but beers in these categories (16E, 20A, 22C, etc) don't have to be based on classic/BJCP defined styles. The wording is kind of confusing in the guidelines, and even a discussion on the BJCP Facebook lead to very mixed results. I ended up emailing Gordon Strong to get a definitive answer.

You could even call it something like a "Sour Belgian black ale with Cherries" if there is very low roast. Calling it a "stout" may make the judges look for roast/chocolate/coffee flavors. I've had very good luck with a Russian River Supplication inspired beer that I've been calling "Sour Belgian Brown Ale with sour cherries aged in oak".

I think defining beers to do really well in competition is harder than brewing them! I've entered something like 116 beers in 20+ competitions in the past year, and these specialty categories can be tricky, but having a really good description, that doesn't give the judges reason to ding you is what really sets a beer apart... that, and being a really, really damn good beer.

Thanks for the additional thoughts, I agree, figuring out a classification and solid description for these non-standard categories is just as tricky as brewing the darn thing!

Here's the malt profile for the stout base:
Malt Extract
Dark syrup: 3.5 lbs.
Light syrup: 3 lbs.
Dark dry: 1.5 lbs.
Specialty Malts
Crystal: 1 1b.
Roasted barley: 0.5 lb.
Black patent: 0.5 lb.

It ended up as a semi sweet stout with good notes of chocolate and toasted caramel. The sour isn't overpowering but plays up the tartness of the cherry and you get a nice spice from the Belgian yeast as well.

I like something like: "Belgian Black Ale with Cherries and Sour Yeast Blend". Still too much?

 

[CadillacAndy]

Hmmm... If it's not over like a 5 or 6 on a scale of 1-10 on the sourness, and it's more on the stout side (roasty/chocolate/coffee - based on the recipe, it sounds like it is probably pretty roasty for sour stout), I'd probably call it a "Belgian Stout with sour cherries" or if you think it's sour enough "Sour Belgian Stout with cherries". If it was just very dark in color and didn't have any/very little roast, that's when I'd go for something like "Belgian black ale".

 

[savestheclash]

Hmmm... If it's not over like a 5 or 6 on a scale of 1-10 on the sourness, and it's more on the stout side (roasty/chocolate/coffee - based on the recipe, it sounds like it is probably pretty roasty for sour stout), I'd probably call it a "Belgian Stout with sour cherries" or if you think it's sour enough "Sour Belgian Stout with cherries". If it was just very dark in color and didn't have any/very little roast, that's when I'd go for something like "Belgian black ale".

Definitely. Appreciate the distinctions - I think I'll crack open another bottle tonight and get a final feel for the roasty-ness and sour tendencies before I pack it up and ship it off.

 

[biereblanche]

Well experienced judge here in Arvada - if you feel like getting a bottle my way I'd be happy to give it a taste and offer some feedback/ category help.

 

[savestheclash]

Well experienced judge here in Arvada - if you feel like getting a bottle my way I'd be happy to give it a taste and offer some feedback/ category help.

That's an amazing offer, really appreciate it. Unfortunately, I've got to ship it off today to make it to the KC judging center in time this week. Once again, awesome of you to offer. I'm hoping to keep tweaking and brewing this recipe as it is one of my favorites - so perhaps in the future. Cheers!