Newbie question about grain bills

[worlddivides]

Thanks. I find the choice of yeast and hops the most confusing for me. I purchased Safale S-04 last fall and have 5 pkgs in my fridge along with my wine and sour mash yeasts, So I'm going to stick with a recipe that can best utilize the S 04.
I've been looking at some german lager recipes, but I've never tasted it before so won't know how far off mine would be. I guess If I like it, that's all that matters.

S-04 is a great English ale yeast. While you can't make lagers or German ales with it, you can make a wide range of English beer styles such as stouts, brown ales, pale ales, and so on. You could also use it for quite a few different American styles as well.

One simple approach using only things you have right now would be to use 100% Maris Otter and 100% Sterling, fermented with the S-04.

If you want to make a stout, I'd definitely use established recipes for reference since, especially at the beginning, you're not going to know how much is too much and could end up with a beer that you don't want to drink. As an example, chocolate malt is pretty potent, so if you go just a little overboard with it, you could end up with a really astringent flavor.

 

[IslandLizard]

Brewer's Friend's Recipe Builder is always free, as are all their other (brewing) calculators and tools.
You can use it to formulate your own recipe (from scratch) or scale down an existing recipe you're interested in. Many existing recipes are for 5 gallons, but it can differ.

We also have a large database with recipes from our own members:
It can be accessed through a link in the top bar of our site, named RECIPES.

Or just by a direct link:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/#homebrewtalk-com-recipe-database.54

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

If you’re not using brewing software, I would recommend it. I use Brewfather, and Brewers Freind is similar. They both have a free version, so you can test at no cost, and if you find it useful, you can pay the fee later for additional features. This will allow you to see OG, FG, ABV, SRM, IBU, among other things. This is great to make tweaks to your recipe and get an idea of the change to the final product. The numbers will change as you add change malts, hops, and yeast.

I have "Brewer'sFriend" on my phone but find it cumbersome to use especially on a phone. I have BeerSmith2 on my laptop. I've fooled with recipes on that one and like that I can scale a recipe down b/c most online recipes are for 5 gallon batches. I only have enough bottles to do a 2.6 gallon batch.

 

[Happy Tails Brewing]

I normally set things up on my laptop in brewfather, and then use my phone or laptop on brew day. I have not used Beersmith, but from what I know it is the same sort of thing. This should help with the recipe design, and help you keep track of what you have done.

I like S04 yeast and have many good English style ales with it. I like darker beer, so for me I would normally brew a brown ale, porter, or something like the Irish Red I currently have mashing.

Looking forward to hearing about what you end up making and let us know how it turns out.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

Well, Here's the update. I found a recipe online that I thought I had grain bill to try:

2*lb Pilsner Malt
2*lb Munich Malt
2*lb Vienna Malt
.25*lb Caramunich® TYPE I
0.25*lb Cara-Pils® Malt
.75*oz Hallertau (4.2%) - added during boil, boiled 90*m
1.0*ea WYeast 2124 Bohemian Lager

I realized that I didn't have 2# of Vienna malt, but substituted Maris Otter.
THEN I realized that I didn't have 2lbs of Munich malt, only .5lbs left. I quickly substituted 2 oz chocolate malt and some flaked oats to substitute.
I did beta at 139F, alpha at 149F and it's currently resting. Mash out at 158F and I'll sparge at 168 to get max sugar, get an ABV, then boil...I'll keep you informed.

 

[IslandLizard]

I have "Brewer'sFriend" on my phone but find it cumbersome to use especially on a phone.

Yup, on a small screen, that can be problematic...

I have BeerSmith2 on my laptop.

That would still work very well, yes.
Years ago I bought the PC version of BeerSmith 2 and still use it.

I also see very little reason to buy a subscription to BeerSmith version 3. I generally despise (revolving) subscriptions of any kind, except for HomebrewTalk, The New York Times, and a few other exceptions. I've never had the need to whip out stored recipes ad hoc...

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

Update:
I boiled, hopped 1 oz Sterling,- half at first boil and half at 45min/60min mark. Quickly cooled, added to primary fermentor with S-04 yeast. Now it's the waiting time.
Problems: Final volume using BrewSmith2 was WAY off of the estimated. First, my BIAB cord broke as I was draining it...Cheap foreign crap. It splashed wort over the stove, me, and the floor. The estimated loss is about 1 qt. I had to measure final volume again b/c of this and found that I was 4 qts short. No way all was for splash so I miscalculated somewhere. Added water and ABV was 1.064 so I think "I'm good".
I HAVE to get a better siphon, I introduce germs and have a horrible time transferring from boiler to the primary fermentor. I've been thinking about a better siphon for a while, I'm going to do it. The flavor of wort before hops was a very sweet and pleasant flavor, so I'm hopeful. It's darker than BrewSmith said it would be, so not sure what is going on there..Duh-the added 2 oz chocolate malt at the last min.

 

[worlddivides]

It's darker than BrewSmith said it would be, so not sure what is going on there..

That would be the two ounces of chocolate malt. For reference, pilsner malt is typically around 1-2 Lovibond, Maris Otter around 2-4 Lovibond, Vienna around 3-4 Lovibond, Munich around 6-10 Lovibond, etc. On the other hand, chocolate malt is always VERY dark, but just how dark depends on the maltster. One might roast it to 350 Lovibond, while another might roast it to 450 Lovibond. Roasted barley might get to 500 Lovibond. And black patent might get above 500. That means that, with these really dark malts, just a little amount of it can really darken the beer. And if you picked a malt in the software that's 350L but you actually have one that's 450L, your actual beer is going to be a noticeably darker.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It's darker than BrewSmith said it would be, so not sure what is going on there..

@worlddivides offers some good ideas.

OTOH, color estimates are best measured "in the glass".

My current batch went from "muddy brown" (when added to the fermenter) to "black" (when the yeast was active) to "red" (when observed in the hydrometer tube). The estimated color was "red".

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

That would be the two ounces of chocolate malt. For reference, pilsner malt is typically around 1-2 Lovibond, Maris Otter around 2-4 Lovibond, Vienna around 3-4 Lovibond, Munich around 6-10 Lovibond, etc. On the other hand, chocolate malt is always VERY dark, but just how dark depends on the maltster. One might roast it to 350 Lovibond, while another might roast it to 450 Lovibond. Roasted barley might get to 500 Lovibond. And black patent might get above 500. That means that, with these really dark malts, just a little amount of it can really darken the beer. And if you picked a malt in the software that's 350L but you actually have one that's 450L, your actual beer is going to be a noticeably darker.

Yep. I really goofed thinking that I had 2 lbs of Munich malt when I only had 1/2 lb. I had to do some quick guesswork as to getting a bit more malt flavor with what I had. I added the 2 oz of chocolate malt knowing it would drastically change the final outcome color.

I grind my own grain and the first batch I ever made last autumn I didn't grind it fine enough. I didn't extract as much sugar as predicted and had to add table sugar to get a reasonable specific gravity. This time, I ground it finer, but discovered that the BIAB allowed more of the fine flour through so I had a bunch of sediment. I like BIAB b/c it usually takes care of trying to rack off and leaving a bunch of wasted product in the bottom of the tun. The specific gravity was 1.064 after boil so no added sugar needed.

 

[ncbrewer]

The estimated loss is about 1 qt. I had to measure final volume again b/c of this and found that I was 4 qts short. No way all was for splash so I miscalculated somewhere.

If you had a really strong boil, final volume would be less than you expected.

I HAVE to get a better siphon, I introduce germs and have a horrible time transferring from boiler to the primary fermentor.

Since you do BIAB, I'm guessing you use a plain boil kettle. I just pour the chilled wort into the fermenter. It works well for me - ymmv.

 

[ncbrewer]

To your questions about beer styles - The BJCP style guidelines can be a lot of help. You can find it through their website https://www.bjcp.org/news/bjcp-releases-2021-beer-style-guidelines/

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

What manual siphons do you all recommend? I've been using mouth suction on tubing for 30 years with wine. Messy, chance of contaminants, etc. I bought a $15 stainless steel cane to help with siphoning from glass carboys, and it was StIll a mess. I spent an hour on Amazon looking at the manual pump type syphons (bulb type and tube in tube type) and all had reviews that said "leaked/cheap/broke/doesn't last). Can anyone recommend a reasonably priced manual pump siphon to transfer from tun to carboy/ carboy to bottle??? I have a nice bottle filler wand, but need the siphon.

 

[mac_1103]

What manual siphons do you all recommend?

Personally, none. When I used to siphon, I would fill the racking cane, tubing and wand with sanitizer and then stick the racking cane into the bucket or carboy. Discard what comes out until it's clearly beer and not sanitizer.

 

[ncbrewer]

This is what I use:
https://www.ritebrew.com/product-p/863136.htm

Edit: I use it for bottling - not transferring wort to the fermenter.

 

[IslandLizard]

Personally, none. When I used to siphon, I would fill the racking cane, tubing and wand with sanitizer and then stick the racking cane into the bucket or carboy. Discard what comes out until it's clearly beer and not sanitizer.

I (still) use that same method. Basically priming the siphon with sanitizer.

You need to put your finger on or a stopper into the open end of the exit, to retain the prime.
Once you let go of that, the liquid (sanitizer) will flow out the exit hose, sucking the wort or beer with it.

I bought a $15 stainless steel cane to help with siphoning from glass carboys, and it was StIll a mess.

Stainless canes are the best and pretty much indestructible. Mine is 17 years old looking the as new as the day I got it.

Rehearse the method I described above, using a bucket of water, until you have it down pat.

Mind: The exit of the (outlet) hose should be lower than the surface of the source liquid (wort/beer/water, etc.) for it to work. Gravity does the rest.

 

[mac_1103]

You need to put your finger on or a stopper into the open end of the exit, to retain the prime.

The right kind of bottling wand will do that for you.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

I (still) use that same method. Basically priming the siphon with sanitizer.

You need to put your finger on or a stopper into the open end of the exit, to retain the prime.
Once you let go of that, the liquid (sanitizer) will flow out the exit hose, sucking the wort or beer with it.


Stainless canes are the best and pretty much indestructible. Mine is 17 years old looking the as new as the day I got it.

Rehearse the method I described above, using a bucket of water, until you have it down pat.

Mind: The exit of the (outlet) hose should be lower than the surface of the source liquid (wort/beer/water, etc.) for it to work. Gravity does the rest.

Yeah, I've tried the fill the tube/cane with sanitizer, then tipped them, drained the sanitizer until wort flowed..etc. It is a pain but works. I was hoping to find a quality hand siphon but it is obvious.. The past several years EVERY piece of equipment I buy is Cheap, Chinese JUNK. I mean, quality assurance? Stuff arrives broken, Stuff arrives and breaks the next day. Tubing doesn't fit, tubing is too big. I LONG for the days when I was young when you could pay a bit more and get quality.

 

[Rish]

I haven't used one but maybe something this would work. I don't like siphoning so I use buckets with spigots.

https://www.amazon.com/Portable-Electric-Auto-Siphon-bottling-Beverages/dp/B0D3BZMCZB/ref=mp_s_a_1_6_sspa?crid=1X0XRPV9Q5OJT&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.VCl59scsZc5CSKSMVfFxgBLV60ILtUuNvgAO8i8rU3u5MU21EXz5ey5HP6xAhNysSmMwGBMC2JQnnk5ONT5iSOWpNUglMZkqWM1N2H_9FCEa2cRGfc7jr_DCz1z5RTrv0FayZikJakVE_udYqsrF9UJFcL4MnR30QXxfuyD7oJx8Ulo3dQU_hlNZaJtXoLGuznGShO9MqmWloPWjPPDlYg.8Mak1n7WPtj8I-egEKbE3S21LXKKlIjM1PvFaT4ug6M&dib_tag=se&keywords=food+grade+wort+pump&qid=1746656055&sprefix=food+grade+wort+pump,aps,161&sr=8-6-spons&sp_csd=d2lkZ2V0TmFtZT1zcF9waG9uZV9zZWFyY2hfbXRm&psc=1

 

[mac_1103]

use buckets with spigots

^this^

 

[IslandLizard]

I was hoping to find a quality hand siphon but it is obvious.. The past several years EVERY piece of equipment I buy is Cheap, Chinese JUNK. I mean, quality assurance? Stuff arrives broken, Stuff arrives and breaks the next day. Tubing doesn't fit, tubing is too big.

One thing with auto siphons (the ones with the 2 tubes sliding within one another) that's often forgotten, is that they should be stored disassembled.

If stored assembled, the rubber plunger may deform, preventing a tight seal on next use, rendering the instrument useless.
When that happens you can take them apart and leave disassembled. Often enough the rubber seal will reset itself slowly over a few days to a few weeks. You can also help it to restore its original shape quicker with some tape, and if needed, a cardboard tube/cone, to match the inside shape/form. Let it sit like that for a week and see if its function improves.

I rarely use auto siphons, just love using the stainless racking cane and pre-priming it. It also prevents the beer from unneeded exposure to air, that may cause oxidation.

Another hint in this context:
Vinyl tubing of the next size up or down usually fit into one another. That way you can easily adapt the tubing to fit parts of different diameters used in racking and transfers.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

I rarely use auto siphons, just love using the stainless racking cane and pre-priming it. It also prevents the beer from unneeded exposure to air, that may cause oxidation.

Another hint in this context:
Vinyl tubing of the next size up or down usually fit into one another. That way you can easily adapt the tubing to fit parts of different diameters used in racking and transfers.

Thanks. I learned the trick of pre-priming my racking cane with water and draining that into my secondary container/bottles last year. It was a bit of a pain and I got wet on my first attempt, but I guess I'll practice and use that.

Sorry for the rant above, but in the past 5 years or so the world has abandoned quality assurance. I bought my racking cane last year and decided to get a stainless steel one, much more expensive but I figured it would last me a lifetime. Amazon sent it in a padded envelope! The silt filter had punched through the envelope at some point and was lost. It arrived without the end tip. I purchased 2 separate pH meters last year, both read deionized distilled water at somewhere between 7.8-8.4. Both were calibrated, rechecked and varied by 0.5 or more from each other and neither was accurate for the water (7.00).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

One thing with auto siphons (the ones with the 2 tubes sliding within one another) that's often forgotten, is that they should be stored disassembled.

Make sure both tubs are wet when re-assembling.

Vinyl tubing of the next size up or down usually fit into one another.

Trim the ends of the tubing periodically as inserting a 3/8 inside hose over 3/8 outside tube will deform the hose end and might become a source for infection.

Over time, if the inside tube cracks were it bends, trim the tube to remove the crack, then smooth the edges.

---

pH meter calibration. In another topic early this year, someone recommended calibration solution tablets. They store dry (3 year shelf life per manufacturer), just add distilled water to activate. I've used them once and seems to work fine. I'm not aware of similar dry product to make a probe storage solution, but there is an article at the Bru'n Water site on how to make it.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

COMMENT DELETED BY OP

 

[mac_1103]

FYI, most folks on this forum don't need a lecture on the difference between accuracy and precision.

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

FYI, most folks on this forum don't need a lecture on the difference between accuracy and precision.

Sorry. I've learned so much that I didn't know from the folks here, I thought I'd give a little back. I won't bring it up again,

 

[Abdul Muhamed]

Yep. I really goofed thinking that I had 2 lbs of Munich malt when I only had 1/2 lb. I had to do some quick guesswork as to getting a bit more malt flavor with what I had. I added the 2 oz of chocolate malt knowing it would drastically change the final outcome color.

I grind my own grain and the first batch I ever made last autumn I didn't grind it fine enough. I didn't extract as much sugar as predicted and had to add table sugar to get a reasonable specific gravity. This time, I ground it finer, but discovered that the BIAB allowed more of the fine flour through so I had a bunch of sediment. I like BIAB b/c it usually takes care of trying to rack off and leaving a bunch of wasted product in the bottom of the tun. The specific gravity was 1.064 after boil so no added sugar needed.

UPDATE: I bottled the batch today. SG at 1.010 for 3 days now. I bottle conditioned and have the bottles stacked in a plastic cooler (I'm still scared that a bottle will explode all over my kitchen) The cooler is my safety net. I REALLY got confused using BeerSmith2 software. It said mash with 1.53 Gallons and sparge with 0.23Gallons. I should have seen that that only adds up to 1.76 Gallons and the recipe is for 2.6 Gallons. Somehow BrewSmith2 divides the water into more than just mash water and sparge water b/c I ended up with only 1.5 Gallons for a 2.6 gallon batch. I added a bit of water with the conditioning sugar but wow, I screwed up. Funny, the beer tastes good, not overly "concentrated". I'll have to see what I screwed up...before software I just took total final volume - sparge + boil off loss and knew how much I needed.

 

[IslandLizard]

Stuck at 1.10 for 3 days now.

1.010 perhaps (and hopefully)?
Measured with a calibrated hydrometer that reads 1.000 in plain water, at calibration temp?

What yeast did you use?
How long had it been fermenting?

Have you read How to Brew 4th Ed. by John Palmer?

 

[worlddivides]

That actually reminds me of something very peculiar I noticed a while back. My hydrometer instructions on the side says "Never bottle a beer until the gravity is at least under 1.006." And this struck me as bizarre since it's very rare for me to have a beer that has a final gravity of 1.006 or lower. It's usually a sour, a saison, a very dry lager, or a very dry IPA. Most beers I brew finish between 1.010 and 1.014 and I've had plenty of English-style ales finish as high as 1.016 or 1.018 (usually due to a lot of specialty malts and a yeast with a lower attenuation rate like Windsor, for example, and in the cases of stouts and porters, it's not unusual for me to mash at a somewhat higher temperature).

But I bring this up because the hydrometer's instructions seem to be coming from a wine perspective and not a beer perspective, even though these kinds of hydrometers typically say "for wine and beer." Either that or they're only thinking about lagers made from 100% Pilsner malt, mashed low, and fermented with an attenuative yeast. I mention this because Abdul says "stuck at 1.010" when 1.010 is a very common gravity for a beer to finish at. Whether it's the actual final gravity or not, though, depends on a lot of factors such as the yeast type, the fermentation temperature, what the beer was mashed at, and on and on. If that beer was fermented with S-04, then 1.010 is a very common FG.

 

[doug293cz]

I purchased 2 separate pH meters last year, both read deionized distilled water at somewhere between 7.8-8.4. Both were calibrated, rechecked and varied by 0.5 or more from each other and neither was accurate for the water (7.00).

It is just about impossible to get accurate pH measurements on distilled, deionized, or RO water. They have no buffering power, so anything they absorb from the air, or any minor contaminants, will shift their pH.

You should always check your meters with purpose made calibration solutions. These have a high buffering capacity to keep their pH stable. To check the stability of your meter, first calibrate the meter (with either two or three buffers), and then periodically remeasure pH over several hours, using the same buffers that you calibrated with. If you get drifting pH measurements, then your meter has stability issues.

Brew on