Newbie BIABer looking for guidance

[alby44]

Hello HBTers:

Need some help with brew day yesterday to improve my process. Decided to go with the AG Pliny version from MoreBeer so I could get comfortable with BIABing and I'm determined to make it work. Couple of things/insights I had afterward:

- Purchased a corona mill that I used to double crush the already milled grains setting it to almost lowest setting (used one washer as a spacer).
- Did a full volume mash/boil with 8.6 gallons during the mash, did mash out to 170 for about 10 minutes, then 'attempted' to squeeze out wort using a lid. Afterward, Preboil wort was roughly 6.5-7gallons

Lol, what a fiasco....I had the steamer basket 'resting' on an angle....what a mistake that was as it shifted then dropped back into the pot...some splashed wort everywhere. Proceeded to clean up and take a Pre-boil sample, 1.030, (that I did not cool;\) for what was to be 1.072-76. Ended up adding 3#s DME to compensate for low pre-boil gravity....after cooling and into bucket, SG was 1.080 (another potential oops with the extra DME added).

Ok, so my own brew day from hell where I'm reminded of my first extract brew day. Questions and guidance I was hoping for:

1. Corona Mill - for next batch, should I take out the washer and dial in as close as possible? The grain 'looked' good to me but any advice appreciated
2. Realizing well afterward that I should have cooled pre-boil wort, why was it this LOW? Grains were already crushed and I milled again...was it not close enough? Did water volume have any thing to do with it?

I was able to compensate ok with DME, but am really scratching my head at the low preboil gravity (realizing now that I should have cooled).

Thoughts and/or suggestions is most welcome!

 

[alby44]

Here's where I got water volumes, etc....:

U.S.
2. Enter the Weight of the Total Grain Bill 14.5
3. Enter the Total Weight of the Hops 9

4. Enter the Boil Time From The Recipe 60
5. Enter Your Equipment's Boil-Off Rate Per Hour 1
**6. Enter The Expected Fermentation Trub Loss For This Batch 0.5
7. Enter the Grain Absorption or Leave at Default Value 0.125
**8. Enter The Hop Absorption Rate or Leave at Default Value 0.0365
9. Enter Your Grain Temperature 70
10. Enter the Mash Temperature From the Recipe 152
11. Enter the Interior Kettle Diameter (for straight sided kettles Only) 13.5

This is Your Strike/Mash Water Needed: 8.6

 

[sweetcell]

regarding low gravity:

how much water did you use, for what amount of grain?

how long did you mash for?

at what temp? how did you maintain temp? did you check temps during the mash? how/with what?

when your basket splashed wort everywhere, did you lose a lot?

when i BIAB'ed, i would sparge (rinse the grains with "clean" water to extract some of the wort that was contained in the grains). to do this, i didn't start with all my water - i would mash with half, then heat the second half to sparge with by lifting the bag out of my main pot, letting it drip a little, and then dunking in the 170*F sparge pot. this improved my efficiency, although BIAB purists will say that i went against the intent of BIAB...

 

[alby44]

regarding low gravity:

how much water did you use, for what amount of grain?

how long did you mash for?

at what temp? how did you maintain temp? did you check temps during the mash? how/with what?

when your basket splashed wort everywhere, did you lose a lot?

when i BIAB'ed, i would sparge (rinse the grains with "clean" water to extract some of the wort that was contained in the grains). to do this, i didn't start with all my water - i would mash with half, then heat the second half to sparge with by lifting the bag out of my main pot, letting it drip a little, and then dunking in the 170*F sparge pot. this improved my efficiency, although BIAB purists will say that i went against the intent of BIAB...

Yeah, 8.6 gallons with 14.5#s of grain. Was able to keep temps at 152 for 60 minutes...maybe lost .25 to half gallon

 

[SteveH aka shetc]

Check these guys out biabrewer.info

 

[trboyden]

1 to 1.5 quarts of water per lb of grain. You used too much water assuming you were going for 6.5 gallon boil at 60 minutes (1 gallon boil off for 5.5 gallons into the fermenter). Usually I'll mash 4 gallons and sparge with 3 gallons.

Don't over crush the grains either, you don't need to crush them again if you bought them crushed. If you crush it to a powder you won't get good circulation of the water through the mash.

Also consider a recirculating mash. That is when you constantly pump the mashed wort from the spigot, through the pump, and back to the top of the mash. I use a spiral cone nozzle mounted in my lid to spray the wort evenly on the top of the mash. We got 80%+ efficiency on our last 35 gallon group brew with that setup. Check out www.brew-boss.com for an example of the technique. Below is an image of the cone spray.

 

[doug293cz]

1 to 1.5 quarts of water per lb of grain. You used too much water assuming you were going for 6.5 gallon boil at 60 minutes (1 gallon boil off for 5.5 gallons into the fermenter). Usually I'll mash 4 gallons and sparge with 3 gallons.

Don't over crush the grains either, you don't need to crush them again if you bought them crushed. If you crush it to a powder you won't get good circulation of the water through the mash.

Also consider a recirculating mash. That is when you constantly pump the mashed wort from the spigot, through the pump, and back to the top of the mash. I use a spiral cone nozzle mounted in my lid to spray the wort evenly on the top of the mash. We got 80%+ efficiency on our last 35 gallon group brew with that setup. Check out www.brew-boss.com for an example of the technique. Below is an image of the cone spray.

Love the cone spray head. I am planning to add mash recirc to my BIAB system, but will use a submerged, tangential return. The hot side aeration believers would be apoplectic over that spray (been having a discussion with some of them on another thread.)

The OP's strike volume looks ok for a no sparge BIAB.

Brew on

 

[dkevinb]

1 to 1.5 quarts of water per lb of grain. You used too much water assuming you were going for 6.5 gallon boil at 60 minutes (1 gallon boil off for 5.5 gallons into the fermenter). Usually I'll mash 4 gallons and sparge with 3 gallons.

No-sparge BIAB puts all the water in the kettle at once. It's not unusual to mash with 3+ quarts/pound.

Kevin B.

 

[trboyden]

No-sparge BIAB puts all the water in the kettle at once. It's not unusual to mash with 3+ quarts/pound.

Kevin B.

I prefer to stick with the John Palmer (How to Brew) recommendation:

"The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

As always, time changes everything; it is the final factor in the mash. Starch conversion may be complete in only 30 minutes, so that during the remainder of a 60 minute mash, the brewer is working the mash conditions to produce the desired profile of wort sugars. Depending on the mash pH, water ratio and temperature, the time required to complete the mash can vary from under 30 minutes to over 90. At a higher temperature, a stiffer mash and a higher pH, the alpha amylase is favored and starch conversion will be complete in 30 minutes or less. Longer times at these conditions will allow the beta amylase time to breakdown more of the longer sugars into shorter ones, resulting in a more fermentable wort, but these alpha-favoring conditions are deactivating the beta; such a mash is self-limiting.

A compromise of all factors yields the standard mash conditions for most homebrewers: a mash ratio of about 1.5 quarts of water per pound grain, pH of 5.3, temperature of 150-155°F and a time of about one hour. These conditions yield a wort with a nice maltiness and good fermentability."

A thinner mash 2 to 2.5 quarts of water per pound of grain is OK, but you need to extend the mash time to 90 minutes. 3+ and you are diluting too much and affecting the starch conversion process.

 

[dkevinb]

I prefer to stick with the John Palmer (How to Brew) recommendation:

"The grist/water ratio is another factor influencing the performance of the mash. A thinner mash of >2 quarts of water per pound of grain dilutes the relative concentration of the enzymes, slowing the conversion, but ultimately leads to a more fermentable mash because the enzymes are not inhibited by a high concentration of sugars. A stiff mash of <1.25 quarts of water per pound is better for protein breakdown, and results in a faster overall starch conversion, but the resultant sugars are less fermentable and will result in a sweeter, maltier beer. A thicker mash is more gentle to the enzymes because of the lower heat capacity of grain compared to water. A thick mash is better for multirest mashes because the enzymes are not denatured as quickly by a rise in temperature.

As always, time changes everything; it is the final factor in the mash. Starch conversion may be complete in only 30 minutes, so that during the remainder of a 60 minute mash, the brewer is working the mash conditions to produce the desired profile of wort sugars. Depending on the mash pH, water ratio and temperature, the time required to complete the mash can vary from under 30 minutes to over 90. At a higher temperature, a stiffer mash and a higher pH, the alpha amylase is favored and starch conversion will be complete in 30 minutes or less. Longer times at these conditions will allow the beta amylase time to breakdown more of the longer sugars into shorter ones, resulting in a more fermentable wort, but these alpha-favoring conditions are deactivating the beta; such a mash is self-limiting.

A compromise of all factors yields the standard mash conditions for most homebrewers: a mash ratio of about 1.5 quarts of water per pound grain, pH of 5.3, temperature of 150-155°F and a time of about one hour. These conditions yield a wort with a nice maltiness and good fermentability."

A thinner mash 2 to 2.5 quarts of water per pound of grain is OK, but you need to extend the mash time to 90 minutes. 3+ and you are diluting too much and affecting the starch conversion process.

I've read Palmer's book, and I've seen/heard a lot of interviews with him. I have a lot of respect for Palmer. He's an extremely smart and well-spoken guy. I pretty much learned to brew from his book. But I've also heard many interviews with Kai Troester and his experiments with a whole bunch of mash variables, including mash thickness. Finally, there is the very large community of no-sparge BIABers, which I have recently joined, who do use thin mashes with success. In any case, I doubt mash thickness caused this much of a discrepancy in the OP's pre-boil gravity. I got 92% conversion efficiency on my last batch with a 60 minute mash and a 10 minute mash out using 2.7 quarts per pound.

 

[geoffey]

1 to 1.5 quarts of water per lb of grain. You used too much water assuming you were going for 6.5 gallon boil at 60 minutes (1 gallon boil off for 5.5 gallons into the fermenter). Usually I'll mash 4 gallons and sparge with 3 gallons.

Don't over crush the grains either, you don't need to crush them again if you bought them crushed. If you crush it to a powder you won't get good circulation of the water through the mash.

Also consider a recirculating mash. That is when you constantly pump the mashed wort from the spigot, through the pump, and back to the top of the mash. I use a spiral cone nozzle mounted in my lid to spray the wort evenly on the top of the mash. We got 80%+ efficiency on our last 35 gallon group brew with that setup. Check out www.brew-boss.com for an example of the technique. Below is an image of the cone spray.

Simply put, you are giving fly sparging advice to a new All Grain brewer who is using a completely different method. It's very confusing and probably not that helpful unless the original poster wants to invest in a completely new process.

Full volume mashing using the BIAB method is a very acceptable method, especially for Brewers trying All Grain for the first time. Palmer would of course agree to that.

To the OP: lots of different possible reasons you didn't hit the target OG. Measuring gravity while wort was hot was your biggest mistake probably. You'd need to calculate the actual OG by accounting for the difference in temperature. There are calculators that can do that for you. You may not have been too far off from your target actually. 1.030 measured at 150f is actually 1.050 measured at 60f.


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[trboyden]

Simply put, you are giving fly sparging advice to a new All Grain brewer who is using a completely different method. It's very confusing and probably not that helpful unless the original poster wants to invest in a completely new process.

Full volume mashing using the BIAB method is a very acceptable method, especially for Brewers trying All Grain for the first time. Palmer would of course agree to that.

To the OP: lots of different possible reasons you didn't hit the target OG. Measuring gravity while wort was hot was your biggest mistake probably. You'd need to calculate the actual OG by accounting for the difference in temperature. There are calculators that can do that for you. You may not have been too far off from your target actually. 1.030 measured at 150f is actually 1.050 measured at 60f.


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Don't be a dbag. The guy asked for suggestions and I gave some based on my experience. I even posted a picture of my setup that matches the description of his setup, minus the optional recirculating mash system. Just because the described process is slightly different, doesn't make it any less valuable, because at the end of the day, all that matters is what is the gravity in the boil pot. If you hit your gravity sparging or not sparging, does it really matter how you got there? Homebrewing is about experimenting - trying different techniques if you are not successful with another technique is part of that.

 

[dkevinb]

I even posted a picture of my setup that matches the description of his setup, minus the optional recirculating mash system. Just because the described process is slightly different...

As another newbie no-sparge BIABer with 2 such batches under his belt I have to say I see a significant difference between a brew kettle with a bag in it and a recirculating mash system with pumps and a fly-sparge spray head. It's like telling someone with a Windows laptop that the way to fix a particular problem is to replace it with a Linux server.

 

[geoffey]

Don't be a dbag. The guy asked for suggestions and I gave some based on my experience. I even posted a picture of my setup that matches the description of his setup, minus the optional recirculating mash system. Just because the described process is slightly different, doesn't make it any less valuable, because at the end of the day, all that matters is what is the gravity in the boil pot. If you hit your gravity sparging or not sparging, does it really matter how you got there? Homebrewing is about experimenting - trying different techniques if you are not successful with another technique is part of that.

Seriously? Relax man. Look, I'm not going to derail this thread here. But a beginner brewer who had problems with his first BIAB is asking for advice. "Try fly sparging" which means investing in more equipment and learning a new method is in my opinion not helpful. It was also a little confusing since you basically told him he should do a thicker mash, which may work in your set up but doesn't apply to no sparge biab.

If you don't know much about BIAB and No Sparge brewing it's not necessary to comment on it. One method isn't better than the other. But one is simpler and requires less equipment which is likely why he tried it.

My advice is: try it again. Do try crushing your grain finer. There's NOTHING wrong with that in a BIAB no sparge set up. It is, in fact, one way to enhance efficiency with that method

Also, realize that most kits are made for 70-75% efficiency. You may not get that level of efficiency right away, especially if you're not crushing your grains finer. The draw back of no sparge BIAB is it is a less efficient method which means you may need to add more to your grain bill to hit the target gravity. Most of the time people just add another pound of the base grain to compensate for less efficiency. Or crush their grain finer.





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[geoffey]

As another newbie no-sparge BIABer with 2 such batches under his belt I have to say I see a significant difference between a brew kettle with a bag in it and a recirculating mash system with pumps and a fly-sparge spray head. It's like telling someone with a Windows laptop that the way to fix a particular problem is to replace it with a Linux server.

Yes. This is my point. You put it more succinctly (and apparently less d-baggy).

What he said.


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[trboyden]

As another newbie no-sparge BIABer with 2 such batches under his belt I have to say I see a significant difference between a brew kettle with a bag in it and a recirculating mash system with pumps and a fly-sparge spray head. It's like telling someone with a Windows laptop that the way to fix a particular problem is to replace it with a Linux server.

So as an experienced brewer with 50+ brews under my belt, I should just ignore that experience and just no-sparge BIAB? How do you think I progressed, probably the same as you right? Of course I have done extract brewing, of course I have done traditional three pot all grain, and of course I have done no-sparge BIAB. Adding a fly sparge to BIAB is a natural progression, not a radically different process. And you both assume it's fly sparge, except it's not. I am recirculating the mash like a RIMS system during the mash process. It's not the same as fly sparging and I usually do it with a full volume mash as you can see in the picture. My sparging advice was a tag on to what sweetcell was saying. Not necessarily a direct recommendation to the OP.

 

[geoffey]

As another newbie no-sparge BIABer with 2 such batches under his belt I have to say I see a significant difference between a brew kettle with a bag in it and a recirculating mash system with pumps and a fly-sparge spray head. It's like telling someone with a Windows laptop that the way to fix a particular problem is to replace it with a Linux server.

Yes. This is my point. You put it more succinctly (and apparently less d-baggy).

What he said.


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[dkevinb]

Uh, after all this drama I guess I forgot to post the lessons I learned between batch #1 (57% brewhouse efficiency) and batch #2 (77% brewhouse efficiency):

1. Mill finer. I don't have a mill, so I had the LHBS double-grind it. It doesn't have to be flour, but it should be finer than the traditional 3-vessel grind.

2. Stop screwing with the temperatures. Stir the water as you heat, target a few degrees above mash temps, accept anything within a couple of degrees, and leave it.

3. Stop taking the lid off to take the temperature. Pop it off for a few seconds every 20 minutes, give it a good stir, and put the top back on.

4. Not a new lesson, but wrap the kettle with something to insulate it. I used an old hoody here in SoCal where the temps are still in the 80's.

5. Remember to temperature-compensate your hydro readings.

6. As mentioned earlier, most kits assume 75% brewhouse efficiency. You may or may not hit that. If you're doing your own recipes add a bit more grain. Otherwise, call it a session beer if it's a bit low. It's still beer.

 

[dkevinb]

So as an experienced brewer with 50+ brews under my belt, I should just ignore that experience and just no-sparge BIAB? How do you think I progressed, probably the same as you right? Of course I have done extract brewing, of course I have done traditional three pot all grain, and of course I have done no-sparge BIAB. Adding a fly sparge to BIAB is a natural progression, not a radically different process. And you both assume it's fly sparge, except it's not. I am recirculating the mash like a RIMS system during the mash process. It's not the same as fly sparging and I usually do it with a full volume mash as you can see in the picture. My sparging advice was a tag on to what sweetcell was saying. Not necessarily a direct recommendation to the OP.

I only have about 30 brews to my credit, though I'm just getting into BIAB. Did you run into this issue when you were doing no-sparge? Did you find a solution using no-sparge or did you just move onto to a recirc system?

Having just gotten into it I'm not sure sparge is the next step at all, let alone a fly sparge. That doesn't make any sense in a one-vessel system. Batch/dunk sparge might if you're trying to do a batch bigger than your kettle can handle (maxi-BIAB). It kind of defeats the advantages of a one-vessel system. I'm really falling in love with the ease and simplicity of it, and after just 2 batches I seem to be easily hitting my numbers.

This is one of those hobbies that seems to have a million ways to skin cats, and the people who indulge in it tend to be pretty damned independent free-thinkers. Bottom line is whatever works for you is the right way to brew.

 

[Foosier]

Here is my $0.02 for the OP.

Mill (or have it milled) as fine as you can. Double crush is what you need at a minimum. Don't be scared of flour.

Don't worry about squeezing the bag. Like you found, one slip and you have a mess on your hands. There are other ways. Some hang the bag over the kettle using a ratchet winch. I personally just twist the bag tight till most of the wort has run out (maybe a minute) then set it in a bottling bucket to continue draining. When the wort starts boiling I dump the collected wort back into the kettle. Works great.

 

[geoffey]

So as an experienced brewer with 50+ brews under my belt, I should just ignore that experience and just no-sparge BIAB? How do you think I progressed, probably the same as you right? Of course I have done extract brewing, of course I have done traditional three pot all grain, and of course I have done no-sparge BIAB. Adding a fly sparge to BIAB is a natural progression, not a radically different process. And you both assume it's fly sparge, except it's not. I am recirculating the mash like a RIMS system during the mash process. It's not the same as fly sparging and I usually do it with a full volume mash as you can see in the picture. My sparging advice was a tag on to what sweetcell was saying. Not necessarily a direct recommendation to the OP.

I'm not telling you what method to do. I don't care what method you use. I really really don't. I don't think one is better than the other and I don't think you're a better brewer for "moving on" beyond BIAB. I do think you're missing the point. I do think the OP should listen to the advice others have given in this thread and also look up other threads on no sparge BIAB and try it a few more times before getting to frustrated. It's a simple and easy process that can make great beer and is therefor great for beginners. The fact that you and I both are doing recirculating no sparge for our own method is a testament to that I think.




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[trboyden]

I only have about 30 brews to my credit, though I'm just getting into BIAB. Did you run into this issue when you were doing no-sparge? Did you find a solution using no-sparge or did you just move onto to a recirc system?

Having just gotten into it I'm not sure sparge is the next step at all, let alone a fly sparge. That doesn't make any sense in a one-vessel system. Batch/dunk sparge might if you're trying to do a batch bigger than your kettle can handle (maxi-BIAB). It kind of defeats the advantages of a one-vessel system. I'm really falling in love with the ease and simplicity of it, and after just 2 batches I seem to be easily hitting my numbers.

This is one of those hobbies that seems to have a million ways to skin cats, and the people who indulge in it tend to be pretty damned independent free-thinkers. Bottom line is whatever works for you is the right way to brew.

Those are reasonable questions to ask.

Yes, most of my batches were actually full volume BIAB. I started off with a couple batches of extract and they came out really good and I was hooked. Like a lot of new brewers did, I jumped in full bore and bought the equipment to do traditional three pot all grain. The batches came out good, but the work of brewing in three pots and all the clean up made it less fun of a hobby.

So I turned to electric BIAB because propane sucked and was expensive. Like you guys noted, initially there was a drop off in efficiency. Like you guys did, I added grain or extract to compensate, but going back to the three pot method, I knew there was efficiency that I was losing and ways to correct that. So naturally (to me), reducing the initial water volume, batch sparging, and longer mashes were my first steps.

Then I read about RIMS (Recirculating Infusion Mash System) and then the Brew Boss eBIAB system and that gave me some ideas to improve on the basic BIAB process. I liked the RIMS process, but not the extra tube, plumbing, and typically a second pot. Then I saw the Brew Boss system and that was the next logical step for me. I already had a pump for cooling the wort, so all I had to do was add some tubing and the spray nozzle to fashion a similar system. My efficiency immediately increased to three pot level, without the extra work, extra grain, or extra milling. I attribute that to the constant moving wort that prevents the effects of dilution and the constant washing of the grain bed to extract sugars, as well as better temperature control.

You are absolutely correct there is many ways to brew and really no wrong way (aside from hygiene control). I don't think I have criticised any advice others gave, the OP is welcome to try them all and I encourage experimentation, that is how I got to where I am. The newbie advice forums seemed to have devolved into "if you don't tell them my way", you're a bad guy. I think that is crap and any advice anyone gives should be encouraged not criticised. So what if it a little more advanced? If they really love brewing they'll probably get there anyways and have already probably started reading about some of the concepts. I certainly looked at all the crazy gadgets and methods more advanced brewers were doing when I started. It gave me something to look forward to. Did I feel inclined to step right in and do it, no. But I certainly took the info in stride and bookmarked it for when I would be ready.