New to AG and have low Efficiency with new rig

[Jsuds]

Ok, so here's the deal. I have jumped in deep to a AG rig and have done a couple of batches. Had some snafus early on but I'm now comfortable with the new gear, plumbing pumps etc. I brewed yesterday and got low efficiency again and felt everything went well.

My setup,
Single tier three keg rig
two pumps
counter-flow chiller
i have silicon tubing with camlocks for plumbing so i can easily move things around.
MLT has a false bottom
two burners for HLT and BK.
BeerSmith 2.0

My process,
Single infusion no mash out medium body
Strike with 165 to mash at 152
mash at 152 for an hour
I uses the counter-flow as a heat exchange, recirc the mash over itself while recirculating hot water in the HLT to keep steady mash temp. works really well was within 3 degrees.
Fly sparge for about an hour with 170 degree water. got 1.010 runoff but did not have enough volume so i kept going to get 6 gallons. Tannins i know...

I have setup a equipment profile in Beersmith with .5 gallon tun deadspace and .5 gallon to trub and chiller loss. and boil off at 1 gallon an hour.

the recipe,

Founders Habitat.2
American IPA
Type: All Grain Date: 11/05/2011
Batch Size (fermenter): 5.00 gal Brewer: JBoneStone
Boil Size: 6.72 gal Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Habitat
End of Boil Volume 5.72 gal Brewhouse Efficiency: 72.00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 4.25 gal Est Mash Efficiency 79.2 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30.0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients
Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
9 lbs Golden Promise (Simpsons) (2.0 SRM) Grain 1 75.0 %
1 lbs Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 2 8.3 %
12.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 3 6.2 %
12.0 oz Caramunich Malt (56.0 SRM) Grain 4 6.2 %
8.0 oz Cara-Pils/Dextrine (2.0 SRM) Grain 5 4.2 %
2.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Mash 20.0 min Hop 6 7.4 IBUs
1.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 7 30.7 IBUs
1.00 Items Whirlfloc Tablet (Boil 15.0 mins) Fining 8 -
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Boil 10.0 min Hop 9 33.4 IBUs
1.0 pkg California Ale (White Labs #WLP001) [35.49
ml] Yeast 10-
3.00 oz Centennial [10.00 %] - Dry Hop 10.0 Days Hop 110.0 IBUs
Beer Profile
Est Original Gravity: 1.064 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1.043 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1.013 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 6.7 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4.3 %
Bitterness: 71.5 IBUs Calories: 141.5 kcal/12oz
Est Color: 12.0 SRM
Mash Profile
Mash Name: Single Infusion,
Medium Body, No Mash Out Total Grain Weight: 12 lbs
Sparge Water: 4.00 gal Grain Temperature: 65.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 60.0 F
Sparge Temperature: 168.0 F Tun Temperature: 60.0 F
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5.20
Mash Steps
Name Description Step
TemperatureStep Time
Mash In Add 4.66 gal of water at 166.5 F 152.0 F 60 min
Sparge Step: Fly sparge with 4.00 gal water at 168.0 F
Mash Notes: Simple single infusion mash for use with most modern well modified grains
(about 95% of the time).

My suspicions,
I think my sparge water was not hot enough. How hot do you want the grain bed and should i adjust water temp to get the grain bed up to temp? Slow trickle cools off fast?

Sparge volume off, got to 1.010 with only 5 gallons in the BK so kept going to get 6 gallons, I know tannins but i wanted to get volume ballparked. did that kill me.

Beersmith has me mash with more water than sparge water, is my equipment profile wonkey?

Grain crush? Done by LHBS, should i mill it twice?

Can any of these things amount to 48 % efficiency? ouch it hurts to type... Or all of them combined?
I partial mashed for a few years with good success but this new setup has a lot of ins and outs and feel i may be over complicating it. Any advice would be greatly appreciated, I'm sick of reading through threads for partial answers and wanted some more specific advice.

Thanks
Jsuds

 

[bmick]

There are a few things to try. The biggest culprit with low efficiency is the crush. Have your grains double-crushed at the LHBS and see if that helps. It does also sound like your equipment losses are a bit low, you're probably losing more that .5 gallons in both the MLT and kettle. Pour a half gallon of water into your kettle. Is that what it looks like you're leaving behind in trub after the boil? I know when I did this I thought "whoa, I leave a lot more trub than this" and adjusted my BeerSmith equipment profile accordingly.

 

[spareparts]

Aside from crush, what about channeling? Do you think your setup might be prone to channeling?

 

[Jsuds]

I calculated tun deadspace from the MLT alone at .5 gal and the trub and chiller loss at .5 gal so 1 gal altogether. I can do more water tests but am a little unsure what to measure. For the Tun deadspace I added water to MLT drained and measured what was left behind.
For the Trub and chiller loss i ran water through the plumbing wort side and measured what came out of the chiller and plumbing. My BK has a dip tube that gets almost everything out with the help of a little tip, but i suppose i should measure without the tip to get boil volumes right. Am i missing something? couldn't hurt to measure again...

 

[Jsuds]

I am mashing with just a silicon tube and the same for sparge. my grain bed temps do differ from place to place, so yes channeling could be an issue. I do have a false bottom and put down some foil with holes in it to offset that a bit but still temps were low during sparge. I have considered doing a batch sparge next time to rule that out.

 

[724b]

+1 on crush. When I started crushing my own grain efficency went up dramatically.

This mill is a really good deal right now, $99 shipped...
Homebrew Finds: Grain Mill $99 Shipped - Additional Details

 

[Jsuds]

Next time I will,

1. Sparge with hotter water and monitor grain bed temps and channeling more thorough
2. Mill twice at the LHBS or buy my own
3. Measure dead space again and trust Beersmith

Still wonder why BS has me sparge with less water than mash, dead space or not...

 

[pdxkale]

I know this may be an obvious one, but are all of your thermometer and refractometer calibrated? Before you go and make huge changes to your process, you may want to make sure you are getting accurate readings. I have been guilty of this one.

 

[Bobby_M]

When you sparge, you want to make sure there's at least 1" of water over the grain bed. Depending on how much liquid sits below the FB, and how thick you mash is, this may require running some sparge in prior to starting the runoff.

Unrelated question.. What is the outer jacket of your counterflow made of? If it's a garden hose, I don't think I'd be using that water for sparging. You may want to add a herms coil to the HLT.

 

[Jsuds]

pdxkale - Measured all thermos to boiling and are on the money though they failed at the ice test. I figure this was ok since i'm not worried about freezing temps. I also roast, smoke meats and bake bread and my end product comes out like it should so i'm happy with the thermos. Measured the hydrometer with tap water and it was real close to 0. Next time i have to throw RO in it to see but i think i'm ok there too. Refractometer is defiantly on my Christmas list though.

 

[Jsuds]

Bobby_M -I think the nuances of sparging is a contributing factor here, I know now to give it as much attention as the mash. My levels were a bit low on the grain bed so i think i lost so temp there and i had the hot water running through the pump and chiller then hitting the MLT. next time ill go straight in. Should have guessed the chiller might cool it down...

So add more water before run off i dig that, do I want to try to hold the grain bed to 168 or just add 170 water and let grain bed temps ride?

I have the Chillus Convolutus Counterflow from morebeer. All copper i believe, except the brass fittings on the water side.

 

[Murray]

You have a few things going on at he same time here. Whenever changing equipment, it is a good idea to do so slowly. You also seem to have a fairly complicated sparge process. Why not try a batch with a batch sparge ? Throw in 3 litres per kilogram of grain, mash for an hour without a complex recirculating technique, then batch sparge with the beersmith suggestion. Also, beware of your running gravity. Stopping at 1.01 at a high temperature is very different to stopping when you reach 1.01 at 15.6 degrees c which is where your hydrometer is calibrated at. A 1.01 reading of hot wort is probably around a 1.025 at calibration temperature. When people talk about stopping your sparge when you hit 1.01, they are talking in terms of calibration temperature.

Also, don't worry too much about leaching tannins. If your pH is under control, a 170+ sparge temperature will not leach tannins. You only run into issues if you are too alkaline and too hot. Do you check your mash pH?

 

[Jsuds]

Murray, I think i will fire up a batch sparge to to rule some things out. 1.010 calibrated makes way more sense as well. Glad you mentioned the obvious there i have a problem with it everyonce in a while. Now i a bit confused how to measure for that though. i put 1.000 at 152 in beersmith adjust and it gives me 1.019. how will i ever know is i dip below, my hydrometer doesn't go any lower. Won't worry about that for now or untill i get a refractometer.
I do check my mash ph and have been trying to get a good water setup up with calcium and gypsum. My tap water is hard to get down to 6 and the RO is hard to get up to 5 so i'm thinking of doing a mix of both next time. This batch was a bit high at 6-7 though i didn't worry because i thought IPAs needed a high ph. Any water/ph tips would be highly appreciated.

 

[Murray]

I am not sure that IPA's need a high water pH. The ideal mash pH is around 5.2-5.5, and there are a number of factors which will affect your mash pH. Your actual water pH is not that important. The calcium content, and bicarbonate content of your water are way more important. Also, the darker the grains you use in your grain bill, the higher pH you can afford to have starting out, because the roasted grains are acidic and will bring you back towards the optimal range. IPA would not have the right gain bill to bring a very alkaline water back. Before you begin adding gypsum and salts to your water, get a copy of John Palmer's book and have a look at his chapter on Mash pH. It is really easy to understand, and I have found it a massive help, especially since I try to brew beers from light all the way through to dark and I use the same water source.

Get a copy of your local water report from your council. The sulphate, magnesium, calcium, bicarbonate, chloride contents all have effects on your beer body, bitterness etc and it is quite fascinating.

 

[Jsuds]

"At concentrations over 400 ppm however, the resulting bitterness can become astringent and unpleasant, and at concentrations over 750 ppm, it can cause diarrhea."
John Palmer

I had no idea how important the ph really was

 

[BierMuncher]

Get back to basics. A properly insulated mash tun should not need continual recirculation. Fly sparging over an hour seems sufficiently slow. I usually take about 45 minutes. Could be your grain bed is being compacted by the recircuating liquid and channeling is the problem.

If it were me and I wanted to preserve as much of my setup as possible I'd:

• Turn off the recirculating gismo.
• Add a sauce pot full of rice hulls to fluff up your mash and reduce channeling.
• Fly sparge like normal.

 

[robininski]

#1 Mash pH has to be below 5.7 for much conversion to take place. (5.3 is preferred)
Addition of acidulated malt may help or Phosphoric acid (drop at a time) until the desired pH is reached. (dark malts lower pHs)
A water analysis is a good idea before adding or subtracting minerals.
#2You may want to let the mash set a little longer, cooler temperatures take longer for conversion to happen.
Raising the mash temperature to maybe 154 is another way.
The grain crush is important, but too fine a crush may lead to stuck sparges and the leeching of tannins.
#3 Do not sparge until you have conversion, do an Iodine test.

 

[Jsuds]

Funny story, I walk into my lhbs say hi and the owner responds asking me if I had low efficiency on the last batch. I say, yeah and am feeling like wow things really get around. He proceeds to tell me he forgot to mill four pounds of my grain bill. He says he helped someone mid milling came back to it and left some in the hopper. Yada yada yada, Uhg.

So I get a free batch courtesy of the shop and things went well. I did let my mash sit thanks to BierMuncher's advice and was amazed how well my kettle kept the temperature. Also sparged a bit faster and that helped temps stay more consistent and getting the sugars out.

Thanks to Murrary I got a into a little water chemistry and got a water profile set up in BS. Got my local water adjusted to a Burton profile. This will be cheap too, I think I have a lifetime supply of epson salt.

So, with all the new knowledge, and a full grain bill... I made my OG within 4 points.

thanks for the help, I have a better idea of what I need to know now.
Time for some ribbon worthy brew!!

 

[davidfricks]

My first all grain I batch was pretty bad at 57.36% , but that was before I realized sparging should take more than 10 minutes. The second AG batch went much better at 67.68%

Q1: John Palmer writes "your efficiency will be 80% or better." Is that average?

Q2: Other than the obvious cost of grain, is there any other down side to low efficiency.

Thanks!