New sour questions

[ehk089]

ive been brewing for a little over a year and have brewed quite a few clean beers. I am thinking about trying a recipe on the forum that’s a “training wheels” Berliner but have a couple general kettle sour questions. First, can I sour in a regular brew bucket, or does it need to be something more airtight like a carboy? Second, can I leave headspace it will that oxygen ruin the beer? I’d like to fill 6 gal in bucket so I am not tossing the excess after I finish.

 

[ehk089]

Or if it’s totally necessary to ferment in carboy, would it ruin the batch to fill 6 gal wort in a 6.5 gal carboy for “kettle sour” portion of the process?

 

[bigdawg86]

I have a kettle sour going right now... kettle sours are just that, soured in the kettle. This means that on the cold side the routine is the same and there is zero problem with cross contamination. My routine is all follows.

Mash as usual. Boil for 5-10 minutes to kill any unwanted yeast or bacteria. Chill to 80 or so degrees. Pitch lactobacillus plantarum (Swansons caps or good belly probiotic shots) or your blend of choice from your LBS, keep warm for 2-3 days checking pH (test strips suck by the way). Once at your sourness of choice (3.6 is mildly tart, 3.4 is tart, 3.2 and below is sour) fire up the kettle and boil as you normally would. The rest is no different than any other beer.

Couple suggestions / FYI's.

The Swanson's L. Plantarum seems to form a pedicle in the kettle and are slow to sour.
Good belly probiotics are the same bacteria, but there is no pedicle in my experience and they sour faster (higher cell counts).
Plan ahead. You need to be able to start your boil when the wort is at right pH... if you leave it even 12 hours too long you may be more sour than desired.
Yeast seems to take off much slower in sour beers, so don't be surprised when it's not as vigorous a fermentation.
Use a simple grain bill. 50/50 white wheat and pilsner or 2 row is common.
Keep hops lower IBU.

To answer your question. The wort stays in the kettle, no need to transfer for "souring" portion. I haven't found any issues with off flavors due to oxygen, but if worried about it you can always purge with c02.

 

[isomerization]

Off-flavors from O2 typically occur when souring using grain (versus pure cultures).

Make sure your kettle is SS and not aluminum, bad things will happen at low pH.

I personally quick sour in Better Bottles, don’t really have an essential reason, but it works for me!

I will also recommend OYL-605, very aggressive (unhopped wort, can’t comment on IBU sensitivity) even at RT.

 

[ehk089]

Yeah I’m trying to reduce o2 exposure so moving 5 gal wort from a 15 gal bk to 6.5 gal fermenter to reduce the headspace seemed ideal, and also for some reason it feels wrong to leave beer on the electric element that long..

 

[RPh_Guy]

All sources of plantarum work equally well.

If you want to reduce oxygen exposure, just add yeast

 

[redllama]

Another recommendation for OYL 605. My process typically is a quick boil then chill to 95* and pitch. 18 hours later the pH would be around 3.65 which was a nice tartness level for "entry level" sours. I believe that 605 hits "terminal" pH of 3.2 around the 24 hour mark so 18-24 hours is where you would want to be tasting/testing for your desired sour level. Ramp back up for another quick boil, add a small amount of hops near flameout, then chill and package as you normally would. This process keeps any lacto contamination away from your plastic parts which really helps.

You will also generally want to pitch more yeast than normal as the lower pH environment isn't ideal for yeast. I just typically use US-05 so I toss in another packet for safety.

 

[ehk089]

I was planning on trying 2 good belly shots in the bucket for 24-48 hours, then transferring back to kettle to pasteurize, ferment 2 weeks w s05 and rack on top of raspberries (in stainless dry hop sleeve) in keg

 

[RPh_Guy]

IMO, there's no point in "kettle souring" if you're putting bacteria in your fermenter. It's extra work and extra risk to the beer for no benefit.

Either leave the wort in your kettle to sour, or just go ahead and add yeast along with bacteria to your fermenter.

Hope this makes sense.

 

[bigdawg86]

IMO, there's no point in "kettle souring" if you're putting bacteria in your fermenter. It's extra work and extra risk to the beer for no benefit. /QUOTE]

Agree 100%

Also if you rack out of the kettle, that means you would have to clean it twice!

I left mine in the kettle with hoses still attatched to the pump and plate chiller to avoid having to clean everything twice. Once your done souring, towards the end of the boil run the pump to ensure everything is sterilized again and continue brewing as normal.

 

[ehk089]

Well my kettle is 15 gal, abd it sits in the cold garage, so for a 5-6 gal batch, I’d have 10 gal headspace for oxygen and no way to keep it warm enough for 24-48 hours. Garage temp is probably 45-50 degrees this time of year. Also, not sure how the low ph will react with my heat element.

 

[RPh_Guy]

10 gal headspace for oxygen

Oxygen is a non-issue.
Lacto doesn't mind oxygen, it won't produce off-flavors, and the wort won't oxidize.

Garage temp is probably 45-50 degrees this time of year.

Take the kettle inside? Or use a heating device with a controller. Your kettle already has the heating device built in, after all.

Also, not sure how the low ph will react with my heat element.

You're planning to BOIL the sour wort, right? That's plenty of exposure time at low pH, plus HEAT to accelerate any potential chemical reactions.

 

[ehk089]

Yeah I’m going to boil, I mean, I don’t want it to mess up the element, it’s a camco ulwd, the nickel chromium type. Also my controller for kettle is a ssvr, as opposed to a pid temp controller. The element is 5500w so I’m not even sure it will hold temp as low as 100 deg wothout constantly switching on and off

 

[RPh_Guy]

Also my controller for kettle is a ssvr, as opposed to a pid temp controller. The element is 5500w so I’m not even sure it will hold temp as low as 100 deg wothout constantly switching on and off

Insulate the kettle if you can't move it (which seems odd that you can't move it temporarily, but all right), so it won't need to cycle as much.
Anyway, what's the problem with it switching on and off? A SSVR can withstand tens of thousands of cycles, right?
L. plantarum needs to be kept 65-100F. I'm sure an element could maintain within such a range without problem, no?

Again, there is the other option of simply pitching both yeast and bacteria together. That's a perfectly valid method. Some would say it's even preferable.

I'm just offering suggestions...

 

[isomerization]

I will chime in and say that I prefer boiling as I don’t have to worry about my kegging gear getting contaminated. It’s likely the odds are quite minor, but peace of mind!

How many IBUs are you guys targeting with co-pitching? I like 10-15 in my kettle sours.

 

[RPh_Guy]

How many IBUs are you guys targeting with co-pitching? I like 10-15 in my kettle sours.

Zero hops if using L plantarum for a quick sour.

Bitterness and/or hop flavor can be added after souring, if desired.

 

[ehk089]

Since this was just mostly a easy try at a kettle sour, I just brewed in my 5 gal kettle from my original kit. 4.5 gal of 1030, pitched 2 mango good belly shots after cooling to 110 and keeping inside to check in the am. Probably won’t add hops in the boil during pasteurization and added none before souring because I didn’t want to inhibit lacto