New RIMS Tube

[ryanryates]

Hey all -

So, after fumbling with the Stout tanks HERMS coil with little success, I've upgraded to a RIMS. The HERMS coil was too inefficient and took forever to change temperatures during the mash. I still need to wire into the control panel , but the stainless sure looks pretty.

I have a 5500 watt element that will be running off of 120V inside the tube. Will follow up once it's up and operational.

 

[augiedoggy]

looks good, is the base of the element steel or stainless? there are lots of full stainless options now like this,http://www.ebay.com/itm/240-volt-55...852164?hash=item4af0a3e2c4:g:SJcAAOSwiLdV9mz4
this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-2...714285?hash=item4af0b10a6d:g:Z~0AAOSwHjNV9nKQ

or this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DG150114All...983469?hash=item4af0c4682d:g:AoMAAOSwsB9V-R~N

Bobby M also has a lot of options at brewhardware.com

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I specifically use a rims now and have experimented using it several ways and different elements so Ill will give my 2 cents, you can measure the temp but don't run the pid off the rims, run it off the ball valve coming out, the rims tube will heat up higher than the mash to change the mash temp as much as 5 or 10 degrees higher in some cases and you will get a faster rise in temp if you use a 5500 watt in the tube, you can buy a stainless strait element from bobby https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500.htm made for a rims tube

 

[augiedoggy]

I specifically use a rims now and have experimented using it several ways and different elements so Ill will give my 2 cents, you can measure the temp but don't run the pid off the rims, run it off the ball valve coming out, the rims tube will heat up higher than the mash to change the mash temp as much as 5 or 10 degrees higher in some cases and you will get a faster rise in temp if you use a 5500 watt in the tube, you can buy a stainless strait element from bobby https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500.htm made for a rims tube

? how can a ballvalve control the temps? you would have to constantly be tweaking and adjusting manually? Why not just direct heat the mash if your doing it this way?
I use a pid to control my 1800w rims and I get a 2 degree rise in temps per minute with 5 gallons of liquid... thats plenty for maintaining a mash with better consistency than what your suggesting and still plenty for step mashing.
I would think leaving the rims element always on will cause the element to get hotter and your more likely to denature your enzymes causing lower inefficiencies... plus you would have to sit there constantly adjusting and babysitting your ballvalve... This doesnt seem like a very efficient or good wat to do it to me but hey to each his own..

I did mention the element from Bobby but honestly the much cheaper costing, longer , lower watt density one I linked would be the better choice since the longer the element the more contact time plus more surface area to the wort. Also gentler the heating will be for less chance of denatured enzymes or buildup on the element.
I experimented too with 5 different sizes and wattage elements in my different rims tube configuration and I found longer length and lower watt density is superior as well as slower flow thru the rims than many use. I can heat my wort many degrees in one pass if needed with the 36" long element I use but its simply not needed.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

use a Tee and a digital probe, the pid controls the temp and the mash obviously isn't that hot and I get a very consistent temp control as long as I preheat the water it doesn't matter

 

[augiedoggy]

use a Tee and a digital probe, the pid controls the temp and the mash obviously isn't that hot and I get a very consistent temp control as long as I preheat the water it doesn't matter

Im confused? how does the pid control the temp? you stated earlier not to use it to control the element but rather just to monitor temps? what does the pid control exactly?

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I think I'm just not throughly explaining my self sorry, you hook the element to the pid but the pid temp probe to the ball valve coming out, you can monitor the rims probe with another display if needed , I have temp probes everywhere and switch mine around, look here for a quick video, this recirculates on the right, center pid is the ball valve out reading, left pid is the probe hooked to the rims tube its self

 

[orangehero]

Controlling a RIMS heater with a 5500W element by monitoring the temperature coming out of the mash tun is probably a good way to boil the wort in the RIMS tube. Ideally you want to monitor and control the wort temp as close to downstream from the heat source as possible.

 

[Ozarks Mountain Brewery]

I just need to insulate my mash tun and problem solved with a hotter tube than mash

 

[orangehero]

OK, I think your way is probably working despite the design flaw.

What if you want to ramp say 10°F? There is going to be a significant lag while the PID controller overdrives the heat source before you get all the mass in the mash tun up to temp. Remember, the temperature sensitive enzymes are dissolved in the wort, not in the porridge left over in the mash tun.

With high enough wattage, proper flow-rate, and proper PID tuning, I see no reason why you'd have problems hitting any specific temp coming out of the RIMS tube.

 

[augiedoggy]

OK, I think your way is probably working despite the design flaw.

What if you want to ramp say 10°F? There is going to be a significant lag while the PID controller overdrives the heat source before you get all the mass in the mash tun up to temp. Remember, the temperature sensitive enzymes are dissolved in the wort, not in the porridge left over in the mash tun.

With high enough wattage, proper flow-rate, and proper PID tuning, I see no reason why you'd have problems hitting any specific temp coming out of the RIMS tube.

Yes I agree... There have been a lot of threads where people had the exact issue your talking about with the lag and overshooting issue... my temp probe is practically touching the element and maintains temps perfectly.

 

[ryanryates]

looks good, is the base of the element steel or stainless? there are lots of full stainless options now like this,http://www.ebay.com/itm/240-volt-55...852164?hash=item4af0a3e2c4:g:SJcAAOSwiLdV9mz4
this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Stainless-2...714285?hash=item4af0b10a6d:g:Z~0AAOSwHjNV9nKQ

or this

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DG150114All...983469?hash=item4af0c4682d:g:AoMAAOSwsB9V-R~N

Bobby M also has a lot of options at brewhardware.com

I ended up going with a camco 5500 watt ULWD element: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RD7MK0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

Since I'll be running it at 1375 watts at 120V, I didn't think I would have the scorching issues that would necessitate installing stainless. Time will tell.

 

[augiedoggy]

I ended up going with a camco 5500 watt ULWD element: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B001RD7MK0?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o04_s00

Since I'll be running it at 1375 watts at 120V, I didn't think I would have the scorching issues that would necessitate installing stainless. Time will tell.

that is a stainless limelife element but the base is zinc coated steel which will flake off and result in rust in your beer... ask me how I know... You would be better off getting an element with a stainless base... especially with such an otherwise nice setup.

 

[ryanryates]

I specifically use a rims now and have experimented using it several ways and different elements so Ill will give my 2 cents, you can measure the temp but don't run the pid off the rims, run it off the ball valve coming out, the rims tube will heat up higher than the mash to change the mash temp as much as 5 or 10 degrees higher in some cases and you will get a faster rise in temp if you use a 5500 watt in the tube, you can buy a stainless strait element from bobby https://www.brewhardware.com/product_p/element5500.htm made for a rims tube

Glad that method works for you, and thanks for the advice. In this scenario, I do worry about wort scorching with the temp probe so far away from heating source. I want to avoid boil issues in the tube as well for a number of reasons.

 

[ryanryates]

that is a stainless limelife element but the base is zinc coated steel which will flake off and result in rust in your beer... ask me how I know... You would be better off getting an element with a stainless base... especially with such an otherwise nice setup.

Well since you asked...when did you notice the coating break down on your element? At this point, I cant return the element so I'd like to use (carefully) until I have issues.

Thanks for the heads up!

 

[augiedoggy]

Glad that method works for you, and thanks for the advice. In this scenario, I do worry about wort scorching with the temp probe so far away from heating source. I want to avoid boil issues in the tube as well for a number of reasons.

you have to worry about an air pocket trapped where your probe is mounted and causing the temps to read way off because of the orientation of your probe... using a longer probe is one way to prevent this from being an issue.

 

[augiedoggy]

Well since you asked...when did you notice the coating break down on your element? At this point, I cant return the element so I'd like to use (carefully) until I have issues.

Thanks for the heads up!

the zinc comes off very quickly in the first couple uses, The element wont rust bad or quickly if you remove and dry it after every use but the threaded area will become a rusted mess if moisture gets in.

 

[ryanryates]

the zinc comes off very quickly in the first couple uses, The element wont rust bad or quickly if you remove and dry it after every use but the threaded area will become a rusted mess if moisture gets in.

Thanks, good to know. As far as air pockets are concerned, the tube will be oriented vertically on the side of the mash tun with a long probe aligned one inch from the end of the element. In theory, I do not forsee air pocket issues with this setup.

 

[augiedoggy]

How does the air ecape from the end of the tube above the outlet where the base of the probe is mounted? I had my original rims setup the same way and had air trapped in the end this way.. Hopefully you won't have the same issue.

 

[Wd2048]

What voltage are you going to run this at? If it's 110v, then you aren't going to get the full 5500w anyway. We actually measure middle to bottom of the mash for temp in controlling our PID. We haven't scorched the wort yet, and we are running a similar wattage element.

The biggest thing to remember is that the closer you are to the element, the more likely you will be off in your temp. It may be 150-152 coming out right at the top, but depending on your fall with the wort to the top of your grain bed, you can lose up to 3 degrees.

Ozarks_Mountain_Brew - insulation of your mastun will go farther than anything in helping to regulate temp. We double insulate our mashtun, both the sides and the top, to maintain temp.

 

[benzesp]

Have this same setup. Works perfect. I use it at 120v have no problem maintaining mash temp for 10 gallon batches. I use a propane burner as well to ramp temps up when stepping (I can get a rise of 2.2 deg F\Min if I only use the RIMS. I measure my temp at the exit with a 3" thermowell and I check my kettle temp. It's SOLID. Cool build man.

 

[augiedoggy]

What voltage are you going to run this at? If it's 110v, then you aren't going to get the full 5500w anyway. We actually measure middle to bottom of the mash for temp in controlling our PID. We haven't scorched the wort yet, and we are running a similar wattage element.

The biggest thing to remember is that the closer you are to the element, the more likely you will be off in your temp. It may be 150-152 coming out right at the top, but depending on your fall with the wort to the top of your grain bed, you can lose up to 3 degrees.

Ozarks_Mountain_Brew - insulation of your mastun will go farther than anything in helping to regulate temp. We double insulate our mashtun, both the sides and the top, to maintain temp.

As the OP mentioned the 240v element is being ran at 120v to lower the wattage to 1375... I don't think scorching was ever a real concern. I have my temp probe about an inch away from the tip of my rims element and also have a temp thermometer in a tee at the output of my mash tun... They read within 1 degree of each other normally... 2 degrees is about as much as I've ever seen them vary. After allowing the wort to recirculate for a few minutes to stabilize of course... Since the liquid is always moving through the rims the proximity of the probe being close to the element will not cause higher than normal temp reading.. The probe is there to regulate the temp of the output of the rims.. If you really lose 3 degrees in the setup the OP has than there really is something wrong.. In a room temp environment with the wort receiving at say 1.5-2 gallons per minute... The temps should have no real variance above say 1 degree between the MT and rims ouput. I can say this because its what I have with a much longer 3 ft hose/ flow gauge between my MT input and rims output.