New INTERTAP Faucets...beyond frustrated

[boarderx3120]

I have a 3 tap kegerator I built from an old fridge. I typically keep a commercial + 2 cornys inside. I just replaced 3 crappy old standard cheap chrome faucets for 3 new chrome plated Intertap faucets. The old taps worked fine and poured a perfect beer but got sticky and gross quickly, hence the replacement.

So, I changed out all 3 faucets (literally the only change) and now I get nothing but an entire glass of foam. It also comes out pretty fast. I have literally been unable to find anyone on the internet using Intertap faucets and having foam issues. I don't understand how I went from perfect pours to glasses of foam when no other variable changed aside from the faucets. Fridge is at 40 (as low as it will go) the line length is 10ft and the regulator is set at 12.5psi. Lines were cleaned immediately before installing the faucets. I played with pressure up to 20psi all the way down to 7 psi. 7psi made it much better but I don't want to loss volumes in the beer. I want to keep it at 12.5.

Any suggestions? Would going up to, say, 15' of line be unwise? Or maybe the line is too long? All that fancy line length math says my line should be 3.66ft, but i've never had any luck with line that short. Maybe the resistance inside these new faucets is so low that a shorter line would actually work?

I contacted Keg King who makes the faucets and their only recommendation was to decrease temp, which I can't do unless I get a new fridge (not happening).

Any help is greatly appreciated!

 

[Bassaholic]

I would say increasing your line length would be the best first step. Your new faucets probably have a different flow rate that the old ones so that could cause your foaming issues. 15' is a good starting point and if your getting no foam but too slow of a pour you can start cutting down the lines a foot at a time to find a good balance.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Would going up to, say, 15' of line be unwise? Or maybe the line is too long? All that fancy line length math says my line should be 3.66ft, but i've never had any luck with line that short.

You're using one of the 99% of calculators that are broken.
Use the only beer line length calculator worth using instead. Comes complete with an education

Maybe the resistance inside these new faucets is so low that a shorter line would actually work?

If anything, lower faucet restriction would require something to make up for it, ie a longer line...

Cheers!

 

[boarderx3120]

Bassaholic, thanks. That's my next step. Unfortunately the lhbs was closed today. Will get new line tomorrow.

Day tripper, I have seen this one. But there are so many! How are you supposed to choose? I'll give it a shot but it calculates my line length to be 11.04 ft. That's only a foot longer than what I already have. I'll start with 15 and see where it ends up. Just don't understand why my setup is so different than others.

In either case, I still don't understand how a faucet can so drastically change everything. I spent 6 months dialing in the perfect pour when I built this. I'm really not looking forward to doing it all over again.

 

[jmark]

I had issues with intertap flow controls with higher carbed beers (anything up to 2.5 volumes would be fine)... all foam even with more than appropriate line lengths. I ended up selling them and replacing them with Perlicks... never looking back.

 

[imasickboy]

There's only a couple of components to a draft system, and you just changed a major one. Faucets are mostly all different on the inside, and can easily change the resistance they provide when compared to another. Think of how big of a difference in resistance there is between .01875 and .025" beer line, and what a minor physical change that sixteenth of an inch really is.

 

[day_trippr]

[...]Day tripper, I have seen this one. But there are so many! How are you supposed to choose?[...]

That's easy: any calculator that claims you can run under 6 feet of 3/16" beer line is one of the 99% that got the physics totally wrong.

Besides, did any of those other calculators provide a full description of the method to their madness?

Cheers!

 

[boarderx3120]

Had the chance last night to hook up 20' of 3/16 line (a seemingly absurd length). It pours nice and slow now but still getting about a 1/3 glass of foam and low carbonation in the glass. The pour starts out nice then about half way up the glass I get a puff of foam come out and then back to liquid. That puff is just enough to make the 1/3 glass of foam. I can see once the keg sits for a short period after a pour that there is an air pocket in the line that forms directly above the outlet on the sanke tap. I presume that's a pocket of CO2 coming out of solution in the line, and as it moves though the line causes that puff of foam. Just don't know how to alleviate that.

 

[spittybug]

It sounds like you need to check/replace the oring that seats your diptube.
If this gets cracked or worn out, gas from the headspace of your keg will leak around it and mingle with the beer flowing out the line, foaming it.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

You didn't add to your existing line did you? You can't just add a coupler and continue on.It creates turbulence giving you foam.You need to use a new longer line from the tap.
The cheap home depot vinyl line gave me nothing but problems,its thin wall line and most likely I got co2 breakout.
You say you see an air pocket directly after the tap. You could have sucked something into the tap creating turbulence. Or your connection is a little loose sucking in some air. I would start with the easy solution and retighten the hose at the tap. If no good clean/soak the tap really good.Take the spear out of the keg and clean it.
I used every calculator under the sun including the one listed and nothing but headaches,I switched to Perlick flow control and run 4 ft lines with a perfect pour everytime. I'm surprised after fighting with crappy pours for 6 months(which sucks) you didn't give flow control a shot.It sounds like you just bought the faucets,maybe you could contact the seller explain your concern and swap out one for a Perlick FC to compare the difference.
As for your fridge not getting cold theres a good chance it could just be the thermostat.I had the same problem.You could try getting an Inkbird controller.There only like $30 and override the themostat on the fridge. It worked for mine. My fridge wouldn't get very cold now I can use it as a freezer if I wanted. If it doesn't work youll have the controller for your ferm chamber,they're the same controller

 

[Jbrown57]

also check the small rubber seal for the screw on interchangeable spouts.
I had an issue with one of them not seated correctly causing foaming.
good luck

 

[boarderx3120]

The keg is actually a 1/2 barrel sanke (i dont brew in the snow so currently out of homebrew). I checked the o-ring on the sanke coupler and didnt see any obvious issues but will check that again.

The 20' line is a brand spankin new single length of vinyl beverage tubing from my LHBS. No breaks anywhere in the line. I checked the coupler for crud but didnt see anything out of the ordinary. I think the air pocket collects at that point in the line because that is the highest point in the line. The faucet is at almost an identical height as the top of the keg but the beer line dips down below both in between the run so the highest point is where the lines connects to barb on keg coupler. If I cant figure this out I may try out a FC faucet. I haven't because 1, didn't know they existed when I built the thing, and 2, I had (have) a hard time justifying the price difference. I got all three of these for less $ than a single perlick or intertap FC faucet. I have already contacted seller about options (morebeer).

As far as the thermostat goes, the temp controller only gets the temp down as low as the lowest temp the fridge thermostat will allow. I have my fridge set on the coldest setting and for whatever reason it turns off compressor @ 40 degrees, so whether the inkbird is set to 30 or -10 (remember, the inkbird is simply an on/off switch for the fridge) the fridge will always cut compressor @ 40. Maybe the fridge thermostat is crappin out though.

 

[pepindavid]

That's interesting. I just built my kegerator (4 taps) with new "kits" from a Canadian online supplier. Each tap has only 5 feet of beerline (Bevlex 3/16 ID), with SS Intertap faucets. The pour is perfect at around 12 PSI. Fridge just below 40. I'm surprised by all these accounts of absolutely needing 10-15 feet of beer lines to get a good pour.

 

[max384]

Fighting foam issues for six months makes me think that something else in your system is causing your issues, and the new faucets are just bringing those issues out again.

Just to clarify, when you say you have 10' lines, are those 3/16" lines?

What is your serving pressure set at? Unless you have it cranked up over 20 psi, you shouldn't need 20' lines.

Have you tried replacing one of the faucets with your old ones just to confirm they work?

 

[The_Bishop]

How about a fan to circulate the air, so the line isn't warmer than the beer that's running through it, which will cause CO2 breakout.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

Double post

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

As far as the thermostat goes, the temp controller only gets the temp down as low as the lowest temp the fridge thermostat will allow. I have my fridge set on the coldest setting and for whatever reason it turns off compressor @ 40 degrees, so whether the inkbird is set to 30 or -10 (remember, the inkbird is simply an on/off switch for the fridge) the fridge will always cut compressor @ 40. Maybe the fridge thermostat is crappin out though.

No it doesn't. You can bypass the fridge thermostat completely and the probe from the Inkbird in the fridge become the thermostat and you can adjust the temp as low as you want it

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

That's interesting. I just built my kegerator (4 taps) with new "kits" from a Canadian online supplier. Each tap has only 5 feet of beerline (Bevlex 3/16 ID), with SS Intertap faucets. The pour is perfect at around 12 PSI. Fridge just below 40. I'm surprised by all these accounts of absolutely needing 10-15 feet of beer lines to get a good pour.

I wonder if theres something about the Bevlex lines? I'm running 4 foot Bevlex lines and aside from the first pour from the tower being warmer I almost never use the flow control. I run my beers at 12 psi also.

 

[crusader1612]

3 intertaps (FC) running 12 feet of line for each.
pours well, but i do need to turn the flow down may 5-10% so 15 feet makes sense.
the Intertaps are much wider in their design, so less pressure - meaning longer line would normally be the right choice.

 

[boarderx3120]

No it doesn't. You can bypass the fridge thermostat completely and the probe from the Inkbird in the fridge become the thermostat and you can adjust the temp as low as you want it

Okay, I guess I'm not really sure how that works.

 

[boarderx3120]

Just got in there and dissassembled ever piece. Cleaned keg coupler, lines, shank and faucet, and reassembled everything. Couldn't find any ripped or damaged seals. I also cut off 5' of the line to get my down to 15'. I tested my regulator using a secondary regulator with 4 different gauges and all read exactly the same so regulator is good. Set it at 12 and purged all check valves so everything would equalize. I also put a large bowl of water in the fridge this morning with a thermometer and checked it tonight. Liquid temp was actually colder than I thought at 38 degrees. Also took a sample of the beer (before disassembling everything) and the beer was sitting at 39 right out of the faucet. After cleaning I pulled a couple pints to clear the lines and it's pouring at a nice slow speed now but still a half a glass of foam likely because lines and everything are warm. I'll let it all cool down and try tomorrow.

Just for the record, I struggled with poor pours for 6 months because I trusted all the line length calculators out there and convinced myself that the problem was elsewhere (call it stubborn). All issues were eliminated the day I broke down and installed a 10' line...

 

[pvpeacock]

Don't know if you solved your problem, but I spent the weekend trying to figure out problems with a new keg and my Interrap flow control faucet including non-stop foaming.

On Friday night, I tapped a new keg of NEIPA, put it in the kegerator and set the gas to 40 psi. 24 hours later, I dropped the pressure to 14 psi and released the excess pressure. At this point, I usually take a sample even though it is not properly carbonated yet. I opened the tap expecting the beer to push the starsan sitting in the 10' lines out and to get a pint or so of the debris that settled to the bottom of the keg. The starsan was pushed out, but as soon as the beer started coming out of the faucet, the liquid suddenly stopped. Nothing. Even when I boosted the psi to 30, nothing would come out of the tap.

I pulled the keg, disconnected it, de-pressurized it and then took the post off to see if the dip tube or post was clogged. They were clogged primarily with hops that somehow made their way into the keg. Voila! problem solved? Not so fast.

I still couldn't get any beer to flow. I tried hooking up a different keg filled with starsan, but it, too, would not flow. So the problem had to be in the disconnect, the tubing or the faucet. I disassembled the stainless steel ball lock disconnect and it was full of hop debris as well. I cleaned it out and reconnected it. Still no beer.

Next I removed the flow control faucet from my kegerator tower and discovered that it was clogged with hop debris as well. Once I cleared it, I reassembled it, hooked up the liquid line, turned on the CO2 and voila, I had beer....but very, very foamy beer.

I assumed that I overcarbonated the beer, so I shut off the gas, relieved the pressure in the keg and let it sit overnight, burping it a few times in the meantime. The next evening I tried it again and all I got was foam. After trouble shooting the dip tube, ball lock post and quick disconnect, I removed the faucet again. Sure enough, there was a small amount of hop debris in the faucet. While it did not stop the beer from flowing, it was enough to cause endless foam. I reassembled the faucet and tried again, but more foam. I tried this 2 more times with the same result and realized that the flow control faucet has such tight tolerances that it does not allow any type of debris in the keg to flow through it. I then re-attached my old Perlick faucet and the beer flowed perfectly.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the Intertap flow control faucet. I just know that it will not work well with kegs that have any amount of hop debris in them until the keg starts running clear. Next time, I will probably use a picnic tap to drain what settles on the bottom of the keg before trying to run beer through the kegerator.

 

[Shepbrew]

Don't know if you solved your problem, but I spent the weekend trying to figure out problems with a new keg and my Interrap flow control faucet including non-stop foaming.

On Friday night, I tapped a new keg of NEIPA, put it in the kegerator and set the gas to 40 psi. 24 hours later, I dropped the pressure to 14 psi and released the excess pressure. At this point, I usually take a sample even though it is not properly carbonated yet. I opened the tap expecting the beer to push the starsan sitting in the 10' lines out and to get a pint or so of the debris that settled to the bottom of the keg. The starsan was pushed out, but as soon as the beer started coming out of the faucet, the liquid suddenly stopped. Nothing. Even when I boosted the psi to 30, nothing would come out of the tap.

I pulled the keg, disconnected it, de-pressurized it and then took the post off to see if the dip tube or post was clogged. They were clogged primarily with hops that somehow made their way into the keg. Voila! problem solved? Not so fast.

I still couldn't get any beer to flow. I tried hooking up a different keg filled with starsan, but it, too, would not flow. So the problem had to be in the disconnect, the tubing or the faucet. I disassembled the stainless steel ball lock disconnect and it was full of hop debris as well. I cleaned it out and reconnected it. Still no beer.

Next I removed the flow control faucet from my kegerator tower and discovered that it was clogged with hop debris as well. Once I cleared it, I reassembled it, hooked up the liquid line, turned on the CO2 and voila, I had beer....but very, very foamy beer.

I assumed that I overcarbonated the beer, so I shut off the gas, relieved the pressure in the keg and let it sit overnight, burping it a few times in the meantime. The next evening I tried it again and all I got was foam. After trouble shooting the dip tube, ball lock post and quick disconnect, I removed the faucet again. Sure enough, there was a small amount of hop debris in the faucet. While it did not stop the beer from flowing, it was enough to cause endless foam. I reassembled the faucet and tried again, but more foam. I tried this 2 more times with the same result and realized that the flow control faucet has such tight tolerances that it does not allow any type of debris in the keg to flow through it. I then re-attached my old Perlick faucet and the beer flowed perfectly.

Don't get me wrong, I still love the Intertap flow control faucet. I just know that it will not work well with kegs that have any amount of hop debris in them until the keg starts running clear. Next time, I will probably use a picnic tap to drain what settles on the bottom of the keg before trying to run beer through the kegerator.

Had a very similar issue, long story short had to rack into a new keg to get away from all the gunk, still no flow/foam only...finally took the faucet off and it was FULL of debris. I could not believe how much was lodged in there. once I cleaned it out no foam and great flow rate.

Aside from that, hard to believe your foam issues are from the intertaps...Im no expert and it could be part of the problem, but I have four of them and the flow control takes care of any pour issue no problem, no matter what pressure I have run the beer through at within reason.

 

[pvpeacock]

With the exception of the debris clogging the flow control faucet and then debris partially clogging it and causing a foaming problem, I have not had any problems with the faucets. As I said, I really like them. On most of my kegs, I cut the ends of the dip tube off by 1/4 - 1/2" to account for hops or yeast settling to the bottom and potentially clogging them. However, this is one of the kegs I did not cut the dip tube on. Oh well, live and learn. At least I now know to check the faucet to make sure its not clogged if I get a complete beer stoppage.

 

[Shepbrew]

Should of been more clear, my point about my assumption that it was not the faucets and likely something else (maybe a clog like we both had) was to the OP's original issue, but that's hopefully solved by now anyway. I meant to imply that your previous post about the steps you went through before finding the debris in the faucet was very similar to a lot of annoying steps I went through a couple weeks back.

 

[The_Bishop]

Easiest fix to all of this is to make sure you're putting clear beer in the keg. Keep the trub and loose hop debris out of it.

 

[pvpeacock]

Sometimes that easier said than done even with a conical fermenter. I dump the trub and dormant yeast repeatedly during and after fermentation and cold crash at the end. Then when I am transferring to keg, I watch the beer flow through the tubing as I slowly rotate the racking arm to stay above any remaining yeast/hops. Even then, I sometimes still get some yeast/hop debris in the keg. At least I know what to look for if I ever run into this problem again.

 

[LayerUp]

Besides, did any of those other calculators provide a full description of the method to their madness?

Sorry to necro this thread, but it needs to be said. It's clear to me that the author of the calculator you have linked does not fully understand the concept of energy conservation and energy loss in pressurized fluid systems.

First, he somehow managed to forget that energy is stored within the fluid velocity as it leaves the tap handle. At a 10 second pour using 3/16" line, that energy accounts for roughly 1.2' of line.

Second, and more damning, is that he assumes that all the energy loss in the system comes from friction within the tubing, rather than the connections within the draft system. This tells me the author has a poor understanding of how closed channel fluid systems operate. He probably read that friction losses in the pipe are called "major losses", and that losses in the fittings are called "minor losses". In many fluids problems, that is correct, but in many fluids problems, we are dealing with 500+ feet of tubing, not 10 feet
Additionally, vinyl tubing is incredibly smooth, lowering the friction factor significantly. While the reduction in head due to the friction in the tubing in these systems is probably in the range of 2'-3' the reduction due to fittings and faucet is in the range of 15'-20'.

 

[day_trippr]

And yet Mike's calculator has solved countless dispensing issues that originated with the classic "3 psi/foot" nonsense.

Anyway, let's see your calculator...

Cheers!

 

[LayerUp]

Anyway, let's see your calculator...

I don't have a webcam, otherwise I would be more than happy to post a video explaining the derivation. It's all simple first year engineering fluids work, I'm really not sure how Mike missed what he did. Would you be interested in me posting a complete derivation with explanation as a paper copy? Then you'd understand more than PhD Mike.

 

[passedpawn]

I don't have a webcam, otherwise I would be more than happy to post a video explaining the derivation. It's all simple first year engineering fluids work, I'm really not sure how Mike missed what he did. Would you be interested in me posting a complete derivation with explanation as a paper copy? Then you'd understand more than PhD Mike.

I'd be interested in seeing that. If you can PDF it, you can post that here. Or better, in its own thread as technical critique of the renowned site posted above. Probably best to post into the Brew Science area here. I'll keep an eye out for that.

 

[day_trippr]

I wouldn't lose sleep over the fittings that would most likely be common to any tubing solution. No line length calculator to my knowledge has ever considered losses due to fittings, which doesn't surprise me at all.

What I want to know is how long the tubing needs to be depending on the type of tubing. Mike's math works solely with solid PVC (eg: the virtually generic Bevlex 200) while lots of folks are other tubing types that perform differently...

Cheers!

ps: While I will look forward to the dissertation, without an accompanying calculator the practical value will be rather minimal...

 

[passedpawn]

ps: While I will look forward to the dissertation, without an accompanying calculator the practical value will be rather minimal...

True, but one necessarily must precede the other.

 

[day_trippr]

Of course, but my point remains...

Cheers!

 

[LayerUp]

I'd be interested in seeing that. If you can PDF it, you can post that here. Or better, in its own thread as technical critique of the renowned site posted above. Probably best to post into the Brew Science area here. I'll keep an eye out for that.

I finally got around to posting the info, the thread is here, if any are interested.
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/critique-of-mike-soltys-hose-length-calculator.652483/

Best,