New house - clearance from my wife for brew room - vent or steam condenser

[wiav8or]

Hello -

We are building a new house and my wife loves my vanilla porter...so I have a budget to spend on a brew room (I married well). Now I'm brewing with a Grainfather (version 1) but have the parts to move to a 20 gal e-system, which is what I'll be using in the new house. I have an exhaust vent spec'd in for a basement brew room and a sink. It's expensive but I'm ok with it (couldn't do the floor drain but could utilize the sump if I go with the condenser).

I've been reading about steam condensers though.

What would you do, vent with a hood or just use a steam condenser?

Thanks -

 

[TenaCJed]

I do not do either as I am always in the garage. However should I have the option to do basement, I would go with the hood due to the amount of waste water with the steam condenser. I really like the idea of the steam condenser, but not the amount of waste water, that I believe is not usable for cleaning. Even if it is usable for cleaning, I already collect more than enough water for cleaning during the chilling phase.

Also, it is not a matter of cost for the water, it is the waste of it; but that is just me.

 

[crane]

6 gal of waste water is ok with me. No need to duct anything out of the house, less noisy, and no need to supply air to compensate for the amount you are pushing out of the room. I would also think that it is cheaper to buy a condeser setup than the exhaust fan in most applications.

Also, if you install the condenser on the side of your kettle then you have protection against boil overs.

 

[ATLBeer]

If you are building then a hood for sure.

You can always get a condenser later and have both, but it’s harder to do it backwards.

 

[matt_m]

I put in a hood but moved to a condenser. The condenser is a lot quieter which is a nice feature. The waste factor is probably closer to a wash than not. Yes it wastes 6-10 gallons of water each brew. But you aren't sucking air out of the house that will have to be replaced with fresh air from outside which has to be re-conditioned by your HVAC system. If you run a 600CFM exhaust fan for 60 minutes, that's 36,000 cubic feet of air per hour--roughly 2 complete air changes for a 2200 square foot house.

 

[ATLBeer]

So both was the right answer.

 

[Bobby_M]

If you've ever brewed on a whisper quiet electric system but then hear what an appropriately sized hood fan sounds like when you start the boil, you'd know that the condenser is the best choice. The costs are about equal to set up (if you choose a very inexpensive hood) but the operation cost is definitely higher with a hood both in terms of the electricity to run the fan and the cost of the energy that gets sucked out of the house.

 

[day_trippr]

fwiw, I don't have a dog in this hunt, but if one provides localized make-up air for a hood the effect on the greater household can be quite modest.

I brew one floor below our great room/kitchen/bedrooms/etc which are all air-conditioned, using a 650cfm blower shooting straight through an exterior wall to the great outdoors (very little backpressure). There are no doors between floors - just an open stair case - but even in the dead of summer there was no noticeable effect on AC run-times/cycling as long as I had one of the windows a few feet from my brew rig opened a few inches...

Cheers!

 

[bracconiere]

i voted for steam condenser. that way you can call brewing a water purifier....

 

[jddevinn]

I have a vent hood, and like day_trippr says close the door to the bar/brewery when in use and it does not affect the rest of the house. The vent hood is good if you want to vent any thing else as well (chemical smell, smoking cigars or misc.)

However, if the steam condenser was had been 'thought up' for a home brew system when I was building the brewery I would have likely gone in that direction. I've thought about building one even though I have a hood.

 

[BarryBrews]

A quiet low volume exhaust fan directly over your kettle with makeup air seems much easier than a kettle mounted condenser. The exhaust fan is just a flip of a switch where as the steam condenser would require cleaning, would make boil additions more hazardous with the live steam issue and a percentage of the boiled off nasties are being condensed by the boil kettle lid and drip back into your kettle wort, yuck. And no matter what you are thinking, a large volume of moisture is produced during the whole brewing and cleanup process and may require ventilation in a basement area which is already notorious for humidity levels. Without ventilation I suspect the wort aroma will penetrate the whole house, which your well married wife my not appreciate. The water and electricity costs either way are really a secondary consideration. Think ease of operation and what is best for your wort! BTW, I married well too! I have a sink in my ex-garage/brewery/woodworking shop/mancave too and am very grateful for it. FYI, I have not used a kettle condenser, just did some quick research.

 

[jcadwell]

We built a new house a few years ago and did the same thing. I recommend doing the hood option, but make sure you get something that has more CFMs then you need. I used the electric brewery calculation and went with the bare minimum for CFMs but still get condensation on the hood. I had a 6" exhaust vent installed with our build.

A few things I've noticed as I did this:

Get a 240 outlet that's wired to handle at least a 50amp breaker for future expansion.
Extra plugs in the brewing space - more than you think you'll need (20 amp service if you can)
Don't forget water (hot/cold/sewer)
Add a floor drain if possible
Lighting - I only had two bulbs and had to add additional shop lights

 

[BarryBrews]

We built a new house a few years ago and did the same thing. I recommend doing the hood option, but make sure you get something that has more CFMs then you need. I used the electric brewery calculation and went with the bare minimum for CFMs but still get condensation on the hood. I had a 6" exhaust vent installed with our build.

A few things I've noticed as I did this:

Get a 240 outlet that's wired to handle at least a 50amp breaker for future expansion.
Extra plugs in the brewing space - more than you think you'll need (20 amp service if you can)
Don't forget water (hot/cold/sewer)
Add a floor drain if possible
Lighting - I only had two bulbs and had to add additional shop lights

This is my story too! Let me mention the nicety of a larger utility sink for the kettles.

 

[RocketBrewer]

Originally, I used a vent. I went to a steam condenser right after BrunDog posted on his build. I vote steam condenser EVERY TIME! Yes, it does use some water, but is so much nicer than listening to a vent, especially with an electric brewery. What you waste in water, you more than make up for in energy savings. You can temperature control the brew space without sucking all the heat (or cooling) out and it takes about half the energy to boil. Most likely will be far cheaper than installing a vent too. Good luck with the build and be sure to follow up with photos of the progress

 

[matt_m]

A quiet low volume exhaust fan directly over your kettle with makeup air seems much easier than a kettle mounted condenser. The exhaust fan is just a flip of a switch where as the steam condenser would require cleaning,

Essentially none at all. You'd think that something might build up in there but literally nothing after brewing most of the year. Mine stays hooked up all the time, I just open the quarter-turn valve when I approach boil, turn it off a little while after the end.

would make boil additions more hazardous with the live steam issue

This is somewhat true really no more dangerous than the other heat-related issues with brewing. The blast of steam is in the "quite uncomfortable" range if you don't learn to open the lid away from you.

and a percentage of the boiled off nasties are being condensed by the boil kettle lid and drip back into your kettle wort, yuck.

This has been proven to not be true subjectively by 100's of users and objectively by at least one manufacturer who had that tested scientifically.

And no matter what you are thinking, a large volume of moisture is produced during the whole brewing and cleanup process and may require ventilation in a basement area which is already notorious for humidity levels.

While true, you'd have to run the fan for hours after to pull that humidity out. Doubt most of us are doing that. The dehumidifier we already run in our basement seems to address it in the summer, in the winter its probably beneficial. And I don't even have a floor drain.

Without ventilation I suspect the wort aroma will penetrate the whole house, which your well married wife my not appreciate.

This didn't change for me when I went from the hood to a 6GPM nozzle. 9GPM reduced it. Running the hood on low and the 9 nozzle might eliminate it. I do run mine into a drain line that is mostly closed (vs a bucket or sink with a large area to evaporate.) Our sump is sealed for radon mitigation and that drain line has a trap to keep that seal and ensure the fan works. Can't smell anything outside but the radon system exhaust is 25' off the ground.

 

[cnash]

Currently electric brewing outdoors (patio), but I have been considering the same for when I move. My main issue with using the steam condenser is you still have to open it for hop drops & you can't use it with an immersion chiller which is my chiller of choice. So currently I am leaning towards a hood.

 

[BBBF]

Had it been available during my build out, I would have went with steam condenser. The only advantage the duct gives me is that I also roast coffee in my home-brewery.

 

[BarryBrews]

Matt_M - I definitely concede to you on the noise factor and perhaps the ease of use and the initial cost. You have experience with both techniques. I use pilsner frequently and would still have a concern about boiling off DMS efficiently. Also I would like to check my boil progress without having to remove the lid.

 

[Bobby_M]

A quiet low volume exhaust fan directly over your kettle with makeup air seems much easier than a kettle mounted condenser. The exhaust fan is just a flip of a switch where as the steam condenser would require cleaning, would make boil additions more hazardous with the live steam issue and a percentage of the boiled off nasties are being condensed by the boil kettle lid and drip back into your kettle wort, yuck. And no matter what you are thinking, a large volume of moisture is produced during the whole brewing and cleanup process and may require ventilation in a basement area which is already notorious for humidity levels. Without ventilation I suspect the wort aroma will penetrate the whole house, which your well married wife my not appreciate. The water and electricity costs either way are really a secondary consideration. Think ease of operation and what is best for your wort! BTW, I married well too! I have a sink in my ex-garage/brewery/woodworking shop/mancave too and am very grateful for it. FYI, I have not used a kettle condenser, just did some quick research.

You seem to have a strong opinion for not having tried steam condensing. It doesnt need to be cleaned at all. I have 13 batches on it and its never been cleaned. I also havnt burned myself with steam. Ive medaled in several beers and no entry ever had DMS noted, even German Pils. Its not for everyone but spreading rumors doesnt help anyone. I'm not a fan of Spikes setup but they lab tested for DMS and it had none.

 

[Bobby_M]

Currently electric brewing outdoors (patio), but I have been considering the same for when I move. My main issue with using the steam condenser is you still have to open it for hop drops & you can't use it with an immersion chiller which is my chiller of choice. So currently I am leaning towards a hood.

The amount of steam escape for hopping might be .001% of what you would produce in an hour of boiling. False about the immersion chiller. I use one exclusively. The mistake is thinking it has to be in the boil. Drop it in at flame out.

 

[cbier60]

I have to agree wholeheartedly with Bobby. I have been using a condenser for several years, built from scratch thanks to Brundog (so I didn't buy from Bobby if you're concerned about bias). The condenser is a LOT less expensive than any vent system I looked at adding, and works fantastically. And don't even mention any myths about DMS; there is none, for even the lightest Pilsner with a 60 minute boil.

 

[robert.balsinger]

I put my 3-tier adjacent to the hot water heater in the furnace room. A 12" RV (Camping World) range hood is mounted to the bottom of the HLT's tier and over the boiler. HLT is induction heated since it is plumbed directly to the 120F 60 g water heater adjacent. The range hood is then ducted to the gas water heater's flue. Voila. Steam, 85% of odor and heat go out the roof. The mash has a 110v 1800-watt induction as well. Propane for boiler heating but that might be natural gas one day. There is a carbon monoxide monitor mounted at floor level and a small standalone Carbon + HEPA filtration unit with an odor sensor running 24/7. Works for me.

 

[BarryBrews]

So despite some home brewer's experiences, using a steam condenser runs contrary to the brewing science. Dr. Charlie Bamforth's interview on BeerSmith Podcast #151 well explains the requirements and benefits of the a good boil. The steam condenser could produce a fault in your wort. Booyah!

 

[crane]

Even though you are reducing the amount of energy being put into the boil kettle, you are still getting the same boil intensity and therefore getting a "good boil". You can get the same boil off rate so I'm not sure I see the difference between the 2 in terms of 1 being a better boil.

If a steam condeser was fundamental flawed compared to venting with a pipe, then this would not be used on a commercial scale. Keep in mind almost no commercial breweries have an open top boil kettle. Most funnel into a relatively small diameter steam stack. From what I can tell this would present the same/similar conditions as a condeser would.

 

[moorejl57]

I think the boil off condenser is a cool concept. If I wasn't so lazy and the vent system so easy, I would give it a try. If you don't like it, you can always give or sell it to someone else. One thing I don't like about it is that it mixes the tap water mist with the boil off condensate. If it was a true still (heat exchanger coil), you could make distilled water for brewing with it.

 

[BarryBrews]

Even though you are reducing the amount of energy being put into the boil kettle, you are still getting the same boil intensity and therefore getting a "good boil". You can get the same boil off rate so I'm not sure I see the difference between the 2 in terms of 1 being a better boil.

If a steam condeser was fundamental flawed compared to venting with a pipe, then this would not be used on a commercial scale. Keep in mind almost no commercial breweries have an open top boil kettle. Most funnel into a relatively small diameter steam stack. This would present the same/similar conditions as a condeser would.

The podcast explains it better than I can. Basically, commercial breweries don't allow the steam to condense and then drip back into the kettle. Whereas leaving the lid on the kettle will condense a major portion of the steam produced which then drips back into the kettle along with all those nasties. I'm sure a vigorous boil is quite easily achieved with the lid on, but I'll bet you notice much less boil off than the same vigorous boil performed without the lid on. BTW, thermal dynamics says your steam condenser technique would require more energy per gallon of wort evaporated compared to an open kettle. There are cost and benefits to everything we do in life, why chance anything on your beer! I personally would rather brew outdoors than use a steam condenser. Besides, is a little noise for a few hours monthly or the higher expense of a hood installation and operation really worth the potential fault in every beer you brew? Please watch the video.

 

[jddevinn]

then drip back into the kettle

The design discussed does not drip back into the kettle.

BTW, thermal dynamics says your steam condenser technique would require more energy per gallon of wort evaporated compared to an open kettle.

No it doesn't. With a condenser you will need to turn the element cycle time down.

I personally would rather brew outdoors than use a steam condenser.

For someone that hasn't tried this you have a very strong opinion.

fault in every beer you brew

This is incorrect.

DMS Study


Vapour condensers, which are widely used, produce hot water by heating cooling water, while the vapours from boiling wort (or mash) are condensed. The hot condensate may be cooled further in a heat exchanger before being used as a first cleaning rinse or being directed to waste. The warmed water produced when cooling the condensate may be used in various ways, including being the cooling feed to the vapour condenser, where it is heated to a substantially higher temperature. Copper condensers, or economizers, are not new; one was illustrated in 1875 (Narziss, 1986b). They may be used with internally or externally heated coppers, boiling at either ambient or elevated pressures. They are invariably used in thermal vapour recompression systems (see below). A system in which hot water from a condenser is used, in conjunction with a hot water, `energy storage tank' to heat a mash-mixing vessel is shown in Fig. 10.13. The temperature of the heated water is regulated by how the system is operated but is generally between 80 and 98 ëC (174.2 and 208.4 ëF). In principle, it is desirable to use `waste' heat as it becomes available. However, as brewing schedules often cannot be arranged to achieve this it is necessary to have well-insulated hot water storage tanks to act as `energy stores'. These are arrangedin various ways, for example, single, tall and relatively narrow tanks with thermal gradients (Fig. 10.13) or linked pairs of tanks may be used (Vollhals, 1994).

-Brewing Science and practice, D Briggs, C. Boulton, P. Brooks, R Stevens.

 

[BarryBrews]

Good quote from the above literature: " steam condenser had the most upside due to the 50% lower boil off and not needing expensive brewery ventilation installed."

Worrisome quote from the same literature: " After many different design iterations, we were able to reduce DMS to an acceptable level with the steam condensing lid on."

Hey, it has it's place and it's price. Any opinions on the Beersmith video?

 

[jddevinn]

Good quote from the above literature: " steam condenser had the most upside due to the 50% lower boil off and not needing expensive brewery ventilation installed."

Worrisome quote from the same literature: " After many different design iterations, we were able to reduce DMS to an acceptable level with the steam condensing lid on."

Hey, it has it's place and it's price. Any opinions on the Beersmith video?

Neither of those quotes are from the source I quoted (Brewing Science and Practice).

Oh, its from the comments to the Spike video, not the textbook.

you notice much less boil off than the same vigorous boil performed without the lid on. BTW, thermal dynamics says your steam condenser technique would require more energy per gallon of wort evaporated compared to an open kettle.

steam condenser had the most upside due to the 50% lower boil of

These contradict.

You don't know what you are talking about.

Booyah!

Be one of the people that ignore science and established practice/textbooks for "feelings" but please stop trying to pass it off as irrefutable truth.

 

[BarryBrews]

Oh, its from the comments to the Spike video, not the textbook.

My apologies for crushing your world. If you want to debate with me, please read your own quoted sources first. The Brewing Science literature is about heat recovery in commercial breweries and has nothing to do with us home brewers. If you will please watch the Beersmith video, then you would understand the concern about the wort vapor. FYI, I have a degree in chemistry and mathematics and understand this process enough to share my concern with my fellow brewers.

Again, please watch the Beersmith video it will bring clarity to my comments.

 

[cbier60]

Just watched the entire the Beersmith video again; BTW, thanks for not pointing out the pertinent parts to watch. I see and hear nothing that disqualifies the condenser as an acceptable tool. A vigorous boil is maintained, and the volatiles are removed due to the vacuum created. Additionally, efficiency is improved, as pointed out by Charlie, due to the reduced pressure.

 

[BarryBrews]

I'm glad you are happy with the steam condenser. One last question, when you lift the kettle lid during the boil does water run off the lid? If the answer is yes, then I've made my point, if no, then I stand corrected and the steam condenser system is not distilling the nasties back into the boil. That's the crux of the matter, where the rubber meets the road type thing.

 

[Reneauj62]

You guys have been looking at this all wrong..... Why not kill two birds with one stone? So, while brewing, close up all the windows, vents, and doors. Then get a high output heater..... Now you have a brew room and a sauna that smells wonderful.....This would allow you to drink beer and lose weight at the same time...lol

 

[BarryBrews]

I like your thinking!

 

[Franktalk]

I'm glad you are happy with the steam condenser. One last question, when you lift the kettle lid during the boil does water run off the lid? If the answer is yes, then I've made my point, if no, then I stand corrected and the steam condenser system is not distilling the nasties back into the boil. That's the crux of the matter, where the rubber meets the road type thing.

I use a steam condenser, and I highly recommend one for all the reasons stated above. But, I'm curious what kind of "nasties" besides condensation of H2O run off the lid? There are multiple data points in this thread alone that suggests DMS is volatized and removed. So, what are you worried about?

 

[BarryBrews]

I use a steam condenser, and I highly recommend one for all the reasons stated above. But, I'm curious what kind of "nasties" besides condensation of H2O run off the lid? There are multiple data points in this thread alone that suggests DMS is volatized and removed. So, what are you worried about?

I've said my piece.

 

[jddevinn]

commercial breweries don't allow the steam to condense

If you want to debate with me, please read your own quoted sources first. The Brewing Science literature is about heat recovery in commercial breweries and has nothing to do with us home brewers

OK

 

[Franktalk]

I've said my piece.

The prosecution rests.

 

[cbier60]

when you lift the kettle lid during the boil does water run off the lid? If the answer is yes, then I've made my point, if no, then I stand corrected and the steam condenser system is not distilling the nasties back into the boil. That's the crux of the matter, where the rubber meets the road type thing.

I don't think that there is condensation on the lid, but when I open the lid, my goal is not to get burned by the steam that gets released, so I'm not examining the bottom of the lid. I can't sat definitively that there's none. However, I have created award-winning beers with BIAB and a boil condenser, two practices doubted by traditional brewers, including Pilsners which would be very susceptible to DMS, and there is none detectable. You're welcome to remain skeptical and certainly don't need to change your brewing practices, but don't present your opinion as Booyah facts.

 

[jddevinn]

If you are hitting target boil off rates, then the targeted amount of boil off is being removed from the wort. DMS and other "nasties" that leave at lower temperatures then boil can then be assumed to be removed at the same rate.

I do not know why their is insistence that somehow the wort gets removed, but "other" items do not. Expectantly when there are multiple homebrewers with empirical evidence, at least one study showing quantitative evidence, and commercial breweries using condensing setups for decades.