New Danstar Belle Saison Dry Yeast?

[ArkotRamathorn]

i'm a big fan of this combo. it's how i've made my best saisons. takes a bit longer, but then again one shouldn't be in a rush when making saisons


let us know how the low pitch rates work out for you. i've never gotten much funk from BS (or 3711).


at 40% rye in your recipe, i'd suggest that is too much. you're in roggenbier territory. i know i get a lot of rye character at 15-18%, don't think i've seen any recipes above 20% (other than roggenbiers). rice hulls are a good idea with rye as they get really gooey in the mash.

Glad I posted here, I was contemplating saving some of the rye for a rye IPA. I'll just make it 2# of rye and up the Pilsner to 6#. I have a crawl space in the roof that stays nice and toasty in the 80-90s so I might throw the fermenter I there and hope that with the low pitch rate will give me big saison funk.

Would lowering the rye still leave it too out of style for a competition saison? I'm hoping to enter it and I've heard a lot of talk how saison is sort of wild and loose in some cases.

 

[sweetcell]

I'm interested to know as well, though i imagine you'd let the 3724 ride until it croaks out. The more 3724 character the better?

yup, that's my strategy. pitch the 3724 at 68-70, starting ramping up on the second day reaching upper 80's/low 90's over a few days, let it sit there until the 3724 craps out (krausen falls, no more air lock activity, etc.), give it 2-3 more days to be certain you've squeezed everything out of the 3724, cool down to the 70's, then add an active starter of 3711/BS that you got going while the beer cooled (no need to continuously aerate the 3711, you'll be throwing the whole thing in so you don't want to oxidize it by adding O2 once fermentation starts). it's important to have the 3711/BS active, if you just pitch it straight from the smack-pack it might never take off given the presence of alcohol in the beer.

typically for me, the 3724 phase takes 10-14 days, and i give the 3711 another 14 days.

 

[sweetcell]

Would lowering the rye still leave it too out of style for a competition saison? I'm hoping to enter it and I've heard a lot of talk how saison is sort of wild and loose in some cases.

i'm not a BJCP judge, but my reading of the style guide is that a strong rye character is out of style. you might be able to get away with a small amount of rye, since its spiciness might meld in with the yeast characteristics, but at higher amounts (say over 10%) rye has a pretty distinctive character.

assuming your beer ends up with a notable rye character, you could enter is as a belgian specialty.

most competitions let you enter more than category, so if you can spare the beer you could enter it twice.

edit: posters on this reddit seem to agree with me: http://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing...bjcp_category_should_a_rye_saison_be_entered/

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

i'm not a BJCP judge, but my reading of the style guide is that a strong rye character is out of style. you might be able to get away with a small amount of rye, since its spiciness might meld in with the yeast characteristics, but at higher amounts (say over 10%) rye has a pretty distinctive character.

assuming your beer ends up with a notable rye character, you could enter is as a belgian specialty.

most competitions let you enter more than category, so if you can spare the beer you could enter it twice.

edit: posters on this reddit seem to agree with me: http://www.reddit.com/r/Homebrewing...bjcp_category_should_a_rye_saison_be_entered/

I don't know how I completely missed that in the category description. I might end up just completely removing the rye. I'm had a roggenbier planned as it is and I can just make a straight up rye Citra IPA.

Now I am contemplating something to jazz up a honey saison. Maybe I should shut off the tinkerer and just make a straight up saison with Pilsner some oats honey/honey malt.

 

[Osedax]

Maybe I should shut off the tinkerer and just make a straight up saison with Pilsner some oats honey/honey malt.

That is how you win competitions. A super delicious rye saison won't do as well as a regular delicious saison because it is out of style. The beer is being judged on how well it fits into the category.

Some competitions weight this more than others. Even some judges weigh style guidelines heavier than others. Just depends.

Good luck with the comp! :beer:

 

[Bosh]

Just pitched a saison with 4 kilos pilsner, 100 grams caramunich (just enough for a little color) and 200 grams rolled oats. See if the oats give it a bit more body while still having the signature saison dryness.

1/4 oz Bravo for 60 minutes 2 oz cascade at flameout.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I haven't gone through the whole thread so sorry if I'm repeating what's been written already.
I've brewed once with this yeast using EdWorts Rye IPA grain bill hopped with magnum Amarillo and Strisselspalt. I made the "mistake" of adding a pound of honey to make it more farmhouse-like and ended up with a 9.5% beer :cross: I had no idea it would ferment down to 1.002
It tasted really good but was by no means a session beer.

Anyway I read on an old thread here about someone doing a Great Divides Yeti RIS clone and swapping the yeast out with 3711 which turned out very good.
I think I will give this a go with Bell Saison and see what comes out.

14.5 lb pale 2-row
.75 crystal 120
.75 chocolate
.75 black patent
.50 roasted barley
.5 flaked rye
.5 flaked wheat

1.25 oz Chinook 60 mins
1.25 oz Chinook 30 mins
.50 Chinook 15 mins

I have everything here but will sub the C120 with Caraaroma.

I did a similar recipe yeti clone before with 3711 that came out well. It dropped to 1.014 from 10.89, but ended up gushing a bit (maybe it needed to drop more--I bottled on the early end and aged instead of bulk aging).

I just did a scaled down version of the recipe with OG 1.073 and it's dropped to around 1.008 after 2 weeks. It's maybe a bit on the thin side. I'm considering adding a little maltodextrin at bottling. Samples taste pretty good, though!

It's an incredible yeast. Carbs up faster than normal as well.

I did my citrus saison mentioned above and bottled after 2 weeks or so, then sat the boxes in the sun for a week and it was almost completely carbed.

 

[Bosh]

Saison brewing update:
-My Ajumma Ale is almost gone. Dead simple 50% pilsner/50% wheat that came out like a drier and slightly tart hefe. Very popular with guests.
-Just started drinking my Red Sonja Saison. 50% 2-row/50% munnich base malt along with 500g of dark brown sugar. 100g caramunich, 150g roast barley for specialty malt. 14g of Bravo for a bittering charge with big handfuls of summit and a little bravo and late in the boil/at flame out. By far my most experimental brew I've done since my ******* newbie phase. Lot going on, came out a bit darker than I expected with the tangerine or the summit going nicely with the esters of the saison yeast. A lot of richness from the munich and brown sugar without being sweet at all with a pretty pronounced hop bite on the aftertaste. Has only been in bottles for a while so should change a bit in the next few weeks. Think I'll use summit hops and munich grain in a saison again, but I'm not sure if I'd put them together again. Still, pretty much an explosion of flavor in my mouth which I like as I seem to like "busy" beers more than most homebrewers. Craft beer drinker friend who has just gotten to the land of $5 craft beers that is Korea begged me for bottles but SWMBO thinks it tastes medicinal.
-My Nice Guy Ale has hit FG. Base malt is all pilsner with 100g caramunich and 200g rolled oats. Liiiiiight bittering charge of bravo (1/4 oz) with 2oz of cascade at flameout. Got my efficiency higher than before so should end up with 6.5% ABV. Hydrometer samples taste wonderful but the Cascade isn't really coming through as much as I thought...
-For the next one I'm thinking 50% pilsner/50% marris otter for the base with a pound or so of Midnight Wheat or Black Prinz. For hopping, probably something really light. Should be tasty with the lightness of flavor of Midnight Wheat/Black Prinze being made up by sheer volume.

 

[Twinkeelfool]

I like 3724 but yesterday for a quick keg filler I used a simple grist ( pils, Vienna, wheat, flaked triticale ), belle saison and a bottle of orval. Belle should be done in a few days and I'll leave it a few weeks with the heat belt on then keg. Quick n easy.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Reworked my recipe a bit and brewing either this or next weekend (depends on the weather and my dad visiting). Brewed a sunset wheat clone for SWMBO (I swear it was her request) so pushed back the saison.

8#Pilsner
1#Red Wheat (wanted to take out some head retention insurance)
.5# Honey Malt
.5# Oats
4oz Acidulated Malt (I like decoction mashing so more on this addition)

Picked up some warrior hops so I'll just bitter to 20 IBU. Then a bunch of French Strisselspalt in the whirlpool and a dash in the dry hop.

Contemplated decoction mashing to get a tiny bit more color since calculated right now at about 5.5 SRM which is within guidelines, but skipping the acid malt and getting another 1-2 SRM and PH reduction is an attractive option. Last time I ran the numbers though I'd have to get my mash pH down from 5.7 with decoctions and didn't want to get crazy with the melanoidin tones in what is supposed to be a dry style.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

8#Pilsner
1#Red Wheat (wanted to take out some head retention insurance)
.5# Honey Malt
.5# Oats
4oz Acidulated Malt (I like decoction mashing so more on this addition)
1# Wildflower Honey added during whirlpool

20IBU Warrior 15.5% FWH
1oz French Strisselspalt 1.3%AA 5 Min
2oz French Strisselspalt 1.3%AA 20 Minute Whirlpool (Starting Temp 185F-ish)
(planned)1oz French Strisselspalt 1.3%AA 5 day dry hop

I have this rocking along at 80F right now in the basement, of course we get hit with unseasonably cold weather in Wisconsin (usually first week of september is still doom-hot outside). I felt a bit uncomfortable pulling 2-3 grams from the packet so stopped just shy of 1 gram I put aside in a starter so I can create future generations of this yeast. (1.061 at 5 gallons, I know dry yeast usually has much higher populations but I just didn't want to risk burnt rubber or other really undesirable flavors, hoping to rely on high ferment temps to keep it dry, estery, and peppery).

150F mash with a single 10minute decoction step. It went from a pale gold to a nice deep gold, glad I went ahead with the decoction for this and excited to see the outcome.

 

[emr454]

This is my first Saison attempt, based off a rye saison recipe on Basic Brewing Video:

5 gallon BIAB batch
3.5 gal boil

5lb malted rye
2 lb Belgian 2 row
4 oz torrified wheat

.75 oz centennial at 60
1 oz ahtanum at flameout

Mash at 150 for 60 min

1 pack Belle Saison


I struggled to get my mash temp high enough, so I ended up mashing at 147/148 for 90 minutes giving me an OG of 1.030. Pitched yeast at 68F and will let it go at ambient temps (low to mid 70's in the house right now). I will check the gravity this weekend and report back.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

48 hours post pitch, pitch 10ish grams of the 11 gram packet, pitched at 76F and had to place a light bulb on it to keep it warm.

Took 5 gallons of 1.062 down to 1.009 in 48 hours, this yeast is a beast.

 

[Bosh]

This is my first Saison attempt, based off a rye saison recipe on Basic Brewing Video:

5 gallon BIAB batch
3.5 gal boil

5lb malted rye
2 lb Belgian 2 row
4 oz torrified wheat

.75 oz centennial at 60
1 oz ahtanum at flameout

Mash at 150 for 60 min

1 pack Belle Saison


I struggled to get my mash temp high enough, so I ended up mashing at 147/148 for 90 minutes giving me an OG of 1.030. Pitched yeast at 68F and will let it go at ambient temps (low to mid 70's in the house right now). I will check the gravity this weekend and report back.

That`s a lot of rye. Damn.

 

[emr454]

That`s a lot of rye. Damn.

Yes it is

And so far, it's gone from 1.030 to 1.006 in 4 days. Quite tasty to boot!

 

[pvpeacock]

I brewed a saison a week and a half ago with 1 re-hydrated pack of this yeast. It went from an OG of 1.051 to 1.003 in 1 week starting at 68 degrees for 4 days and then letting it free rise to 75 degrees for 3 more days. I dry hopped it after one week and plan to check the gravity again soon before cold crashing it. Every batch I have made with Belle Saison yeast has turned out great.

 

[Bosh]

One quick word to the wise, Belle Saison, especially when still fermenting and quite warm often has a just a touch of a citrus/sour taste that's easy for your average infection-paranoid homebrewer to mistake for the very early stages of a lacto infection. If you get this chill, the beer's still probably fine and will taste great when it's done, carbed and cold.

 

[grizzly2378]

One quick word to the wise, Belle Saison, especially when still fermenting and quite warm often has a just a touch of a citrus/sour taste that's easy for your average infection-paranoid homebrewer to mistake for the very early stages of a lacto infection. If you get this chill, the beer's still probably fine and will taste great when it's done, carbed and cold.

Yup, I brewed a saison earlier this summer with Belle Saison and at bottling and even the first couple bottles after only a week or two of conditioning, had an almost-sour hint to them. A few weeks of bottle conditioning later and it's mellowed out and tastes great (it didn't taste bad before, necessarily, just not what I expected).

 

[tennesseean_87]

one quick word to the wise, belle saison, especially when still fermenting and quite warm often has a just a touch of a citrus/sour taste that's easy for your average infection-paranoid homebrewer to mistake for the very early stages of a lacto infection. If you get this chill, the beer's still probably fine and will taste great when it's done, carbed and cold.

+1

 

[brewski09]

This yeast is known for a tart lemon character at certain temps.

 

[Bosh]

This yeast is known for a tart lemon character at certain temps.

Yep, went nicely with the wheat saison I made. Yum. Never got the slightest kind of spice that saisons are known for and I've made four batches with Belle Saison this summer and am about to make the fifth.

For my fifth thoughts for a 5 gallon batch of Black Saison:
4.4 pounds pilsner.
4.4 pounds Maris Otter.
1 pound Black Prinz
Some oats?

Then light hopping with Bravo hops. Maybe 1/4 oz bittering and 3/4 oz at or near the end of the boil.

Voices in my head are asking me if that's too much Black Prinz or if I should replace the pilsner with more Maris Otter or Vienna or something.

 

[ArkotRamathorn]

Just bottled my saison made with this. Took a hydrometer reading before the dry hop and it was down to 1.004-6 (I can never read it very well). Way lower than I thought possible with 8oz of honey malt and 8oz of oats(and a single 10 minute decoction step and an overall 150F mash temp).

I really love the French Strisselspalt hops with the honey malt and saison yeast. I get a big honey lemon punch, like a really good cup of honey and lemon tea (without astringency). Right now its slightly on the sweet side but I think the priming sugar may be skewing my judgement on this. Love this yeast and planning to use it for a dubbel/BDSA soon since I love the phenols in it (also that attenuation, I love a dry dubbel).

Edit for clarification: I miscounted my bottles and had another 16ish oz sample left in the bucket so I threw it in a plastic bottle and force carbonated it quick and drank it a couple hours later so the sweetness I am detecting is more than likely the priming sugar.

 

[skunkfunk]

Yep, went nicely with the wheat saison I made. Yum. Never got the slightest kind of spice that saisons are known for and I've made four batches with Belle Saison this summer and am about to make the fifth.

For my fifth thoughts for a 5 gallon batch of Black Saison:
4.4 pounds pilsner.
4.4 pounds Maris Otter.
1 pound Black Prinz
Some oats?

Then light hopping with Bravo hops. Maybe 1/4 oz bittering and 3/4 oz at or near the end of the boil.

Voices in my head are asking me if that's too much Black Prinz or if I should replace the pilsner with more Maris Otter or Vienna or something.

I made an RIS with this yeast. It was really weird. Matt over at http://tobrewabeer.com/ seemed to think it turned out alright, but it was definitely strange.

 

[sweetcell]

Yep, went nicely with the wheat saison I made. Yum. Never got the slightest kind of spice that saisons are known for and I've made four batches with Belle Saison this summer and am about to make the fifth.

For my fifth thoughts for a 5 gallon batch of Black Saison:
4.4 pounds pilsner.
4.4 pounds Maris Otter.
1 pound Black Prinz
Some oats?

Then light hopping with Bravo hops. Maybe 1/4 oz bittering and 3/4 oz at or near the end of the boil.

Voices in my head are asking me if that's too much Black Prinz or if I should replace the pilsner with more Maris Otter or Vienna or something.

a pound of BP is a lot, you'll get some noticeable roast character from it. if you're just going for color, 1/4 should do it (but put it in a recipe calculator first to estimate the SRM).

personally i like saisons with more pilsner and less other base malts, so i'd keep the pilsner (if not increase it at the expense of the MO). if anything, i'd swap out the MO for vienna. more to style... but maybe you're looking to bust out of the boundaries of style.

 

[rhys333]

Since you guys bring it up, I'd really like to try a MO saison just to see what it does. Maybe 70% MO with 30% wheat. Also substantial late addition hopping with Mosaic just to really push the boundaries.

 

[1977Brewer]

Since you guys bring it up, I'd really like to try a MO saison just to see what it does. Maybe 70% MO with 30% wheat. Also substantial late addition hopping with Mosaic just to really push the boundaries.

I was working on a Mosaic Saison recipe at lunch. Straight Rahr Pale/wheat/cane sugar though. MO gets spendy.

 

[Bosh]

a pound of BP is a lot, you'll get some noticeable roast character from it. if you're just going for color, 1/4 should do it (but put it in a recipe calculator first to estimate the SRM).

personally i like saisons with more pilsner and less other base malts, so i'd keep the pilsner (if not increase it at the expense of the MO). if anything, i'd swap out the MO for vienna. more to style... but maybe you're looking to bust out of the boundaries of style.

Thanks for the ideas. My very first all grain batch was a Bravo/Vienna SMaSH! saison a few months ago. I had terribad efficiency but it came out very American Pale Ale-ish (except more esters) so Vienna seems OK in a saison.

Am being inspired by a very tasty black saison I had at a brewpub last year which had:
-Midnight black color.
-Mild/subtle roastiness, with no real coffee or charcoal taste. Was thinking big handful of Carafa might get me that, but maybe chocolate malt instead? Maybe about the same level of roast as a Guiness (i.e. there but not too strong)? Don't really want to use roast barley on this one though, the only roast barley I can get my hands on in Korea is one of the brands near the high end of the roast barley lovibond range and is too bitey for a saison.
-Well balanced, no real bitterness or malty sweetness.
-Crazy rich mouthfeel (which saisons often get in surprising amounts despite low FG).
-Pleasant moderate dark fruit that balanced really nicely with the subtle roast but not overpoweringly estery like some Belgian beers (which I think Belle Saison is pretty good for, the esters I've gotten from it have been fairly moderate).
-7.5% ABV, which isn't especially hard to get with this insane yeast on even a fairly low OG.
-Zero spice flavor, which I don't really get from this yeast in any case.
-No real hop presence, probably low bittering as well.
-Overall the closest thing I could compare it to was some of the strong dark Quebecois beer I had a long time ago.

 

[rhys333]

I was working on a Mosaic Saison recipe at lunch. Straight Rahr Pale/wheat/cane sugar though. MO gets spendy.

Out of curiosity, how much do you pay for MO? I pay $65 for a 55 lb sack which is only $17 more than the domestic 2 Row I get. After watching the Basic Brewing videos on youtube, I'm considering a partigyle batch. Something like MO and wheat as a starting point then add crystal/choc to the first runnings for a brown ale, then sugar to second runnings for a saison. Fun experiment anyway.

 

[emr454]

My rye saison is progressing nicely. I brewed it on 8/22, original gravity was 1.030. The fermentor has been sitting at ambient temps since I pitched the yeast, so anywhere from mid 70's to mid 80's. Today it is 1.003 and has a nice saison flavor profile, definitely pick up that signature saison funk but it is restrained. Can't wait to try one that fully carbed and cold

 

[Rhumbline]

I thought I'd chime in with the results of my experiment. I brewed a simple Saison and did half the batch with Wyeast 1792 and half with Belle Saison.

Both are decent, the 1792 has a bit more phenolics, the Belle Saison is excellent, very smooth with lots of fruit flavors. I will be using it as my go-to for Saisons from now on.