New brewery in Texas!

[hatrickwah]

Hey all, had at least one request that I be sure to share my latest project with all. That, and I haven't seen to much like it so on the premise of being different here we roll.

I've been brewing in Wyoming for about 3 years, but this past month my family was transferred to Texas. So far so good on the home and work front, but it is definitely getting to be time to brew. You know it is bad when SWMBO is asking when I plan to brew my first Texas brew.

My problems that didn't exist in Wyoming all sum up to one issue HEAT. Tap water is to hot to knock out and ambient temperature is to warm for yeast to do their best work, and on top of that, no basement to avoid the heat.

My solution is this, I'll share the details of my plan as I go later:

1. Obtain a Brewtroller board, new/old not so important since we are going for basic operation. [Check, found a used one, thanks]
2. Build a glycol unit controlled via a channel on the Fermtroller setup.
3. Build a box (or few) to control the temperature of a somewhat smaller space, and use Fermtroller again to maintain the temperatures in the box.
4. Find a small to medium size plate chiller adequate enough to take my tap water from what ever it is now (~75-80 degrees) and knock the tap down to minimum of 70, and maybe even lager 50s if I so desired. Before the tap water enters my CFC.
5. Depending on efficiency, add a 3rd box/cooler for keeping kegs cool while waiting to be tapped.
6. FAR OFF FUTURE - CONICALS.

Since today was my first day to tackle this project on the fabrication side, I'll wait until tomorrow with pics. But the sum of the story, so far I have demoed some plastic, moved an a/c coil and set it in a 54qt cooler. I have begun to build my work bench/brew area, and I still plan to brew my first batch tomorrow afternoon (using my currently unused keezer to maintain temps for now).

 

[newnick]

Welcome to Texas.

 

[RosewaterFoundation]

Yeah welcome. You are going to have to have fermentation temp control or constantly brew saisons, heh.

 

[cd38]

yep heat is an issue here. Where in Texas are you at

 

[mkirkland]

Welcome to Texas!. The heat is bigger here too.

 

[hatrickwah]

Thanks for the welcoming.
Finally the long day is over. First Texas brew down, took too long though. I said I would have pictures today but since brewing took about 8 hours, about 2 more than before, I will have to find time this week.
I managed to brew my beer, build my Fermtroller box, and a few other things, all while the 8 mo. old daughter was screaming. The heat in Houston area was pretty harsh today too. Looks like it's going to be a long week... When is the 4th of July again?

 

[calebawilson]

What part of Houston are you in?

 

[greatschmaltez]

Hey man, my solution for the cooling water for the wort is getting an extra wort chiller. Then you put the 2 wort chillers in series and you put the first one in a 5 gallon bucket filled to the brim with ice. The second goes in your wort. You can get your water REALLY cold. If you shake your first chiller you can get it even colder. I live in H Town too next to Cedar Creek which is a cool place to get a brew and a money hamburger... Peep it.

 

[greatschmaltez]

PS you do have to replenish ice during the cooling process because it is ridiculously hot here.

 

[hatrickwah]

Did the pre chilled yesterday, the cost of ice was about $10 for 40#. The ice lasted through about 7 gallons. Took forever too. In WY I could knock out in about 20mins easy, only having to turn down the hose flow, versus dialing WAY back on my beer flow.
I definitely want to get this Lycos setup up and running soon.

 

[ccrum]

I chill with what I call the ice cream maker method. I put a 25' coil in a bath of ice and salt and let the beer run through the coil. I can run 10 gallons through in about 10 minutes and I usually run it through twice to get it to 75-80 degrees. I brew outside in Fort Worth. A couple of things about this method:

1. don't add the salt to the bath until your wort is flowing. It WILL freeze before reaching the output.

2. Don't let the hot wort stop flowing. It WILL freeze. Getting it unfrozen it not trivial.

I ruined a batch of beer one time trying to pull the frozen up coil out of the bath and knocking the cooler full of saltwater off the table into the bucket of wort on the floor. Crappy part is that I only had about 1/2 gallon left to cool when it froze up. I should have left it.

 

[bmc1313]

the cost of ice was about $10 for 40#.

find one of these ice houses -> Ice House America

$2 or less for 20 pounds if you bring a cooler to dump it in

 

[calebawilson]

You can get a cheap pond pump to pump cold ice water threw the chiller.

 

[dino2gnt]

I keep a spare 5 gallon corny that I fill with ~10lbs of ice to pre-chill my immersion chiller. Works great, cheap solution.

 

[hatrickwah]

So here is my plan for this build. I already have the parts on order with exception for the plate chiller, but $10-$20 of ice per batch versus the $50 plate chiller should be an easy sell to swmbo. Technically I could just use the glycol, but I fear that the heat returning would overwhelm the a/c glycol unit.

North Houston btw.

 

[hatrickwah]

I need some help here. My Fermtroller build was on track until this afternoon. I have everything wired and functioning EXCEPT that my SSR that controls my A/C won't stay on much longer than 15 seconds. What is frustrating is that when I tie the SSR to my spare PID it works fine. Any thoughts anybody? I should also add that I have tried changing out the wire running to the SSR but no difference. I am really hoping to keep everything under control of the Fermtroller, no added PIDs if I can help it.

 

[hatrickwah]

Still in a bind but I want to share the progress here. I've nearly completed converting my A/C into a glycol chiller, just need Fermtroller to take control, and I have built 1 of 2 fermentation chambers. I have my Fermtroller box assembled, but will probably be making a few tweaks this evening or so, right now my controls are on the valve panel, and I want to transition them to the heat outputs so I can put a higher gauge wire in contact with my 12v controlled items. Here some pics:

Fermtroller Box with 5 LED indicators for 5 zones, will only be using 3 to start.

Fermentation chamber for 2 carboys, built, but still needs wired and plumbed.

My cooling radiators, with 2 120mm 12v fans for cooling the air across the glycol cooled radiator.

Glycol A/C unit, almost wired. I was able to by-pass the digital control quite easily, but for some reason my Fermtroller won't keep the SSR on continuously like my PID does.

** Does anyone have any idea why Fermtroller won't leave my SSR on like my PID**
I have tested this with a 10a and 25a SSR, the PID works fine with either, but Fermtroller will only stay on for a few seconds then cycles off then on.

 

[ryclo]

I find a PID control is really not suited for a compressor cooling system. You probably want to buy a 120V relay and use the alarm output instead. Then you can put in your turn on temp and turn off temp and keep it from cycling too fast thus locking up your compressor.

 

[cwi]

Be careful playing around with compressors and temp controls. You will need something that prevents hot starts of the compressor. It is usually called ASD. It needs to guarantee that the compressor can't be activated within 5 minutes, or better yet 10 minutes, from when it last shut off. This is not a "most times" or "usually" it doesn't thing. Even one hot start can possibly fry your compressor.

You went a little overkill for what you needed to accomplish, but if you have the time and skills, it's more fun that way. The ghetto method is to use an old fridge or chest freezer for a fermentation chamber, and more added for multiple ferms. Since you already have the glycol chiller, you are only a jacketed conical away from having a temp controlled conical.

I have a plan for something similar to your glycol setup, but was going to place my fermenters in individual buckets of glycol inside a large (broken?) chest freezer instead of the radiators and individual chambers. More stable temps, and faster response that way. If the freezer functions, it can be set to the highest of the current ferm temps to stabilize temps further and reduce glycol chiller activation.

 

[cwi]

RE: chilling to pitching temp

Don't forget that if you recirc the chilling fluid for a counter flow (or plate) chiller, the outflow temp of the product will change as the chilling fluid temp rises due to being recirculated. This will affect things even if you just recirc for the prechill as you are doing. The chilling fluid input into prechiller and subsequently to the final chiller will change temps during the chill unless your glycol chiller reservoir and recovery rate is great enough to not change temps. Should still work, but will require a bit of fiddling and some leeway to increase chill fluid flows as the chill progresses.

If you aren't hung up on CFC or plate chillers, an immersion chiller works well with hot tap water temps. Chill to 80-100F with hose water, then switch to a recirc'd open ice bath. Much less ice this way than the cfc/plate method where all the water needs to be iced to the same temp.

 

[jww9618]

How is the plate chiller going to cool the tap water? Are you going to put it in ice or something?

 

[hatrickwah]

Be careful playing around with compressors and temp controls. You will need something that prevents hot starts of the compressor. It is usually called ASD. It needs to guarantee that the compressor can't be activated within 5 minutes, or better yet 10 minutes, from when it last shut off. This is not a "most times" or "usually" it doesn't thing. Even one hot start can possibly fry your compressor.

You went a little overkill for what you needed to accomplish, but if you have the time and skills, it's more fun that way. The ghetto method is to use an old fridge or chest freezer for a fermentation chamber, and more added for multiple ferms. Since you already have the glycol chiller, you are only a jacketed conical away from having a temp controlled conical.

I have a plan for something similar to your glycol setup, but was going to place my fermenters in individual buckets of glycol inside a large (broken?) chest freezer instead of the radiators and individual chambers. More stable temps, and faster response that way. If the freezer functions, it can be set to the highest of the current ferm temps to stabilize temps further and reduce glycol chiller activation.

Thanks for the tip, I will check in to it. I am pretty certain the compressor has something since my friendly Fermtroller SSR issue clicks the unit on, but after it cycles once, the compressor doesn't come back on.

The whole setup right now seems overkill, but once I have my prechiller installed and gradually save my pennies for my conicals, the planning will make more sense. Personally, I hate the fridge and deep freezer setups, this setup will ultimately allow me to ferment and cold crash in the same spot. It will also allow me to rack with out even moving the carboys. My goal is to make my life easier, not more complex.

The plate chiller will be my prechiller, run the tap through one side while running near freezing (if not colder) glycol through the other. This should mean I need fewer BTUs for cooling since I am only taking the tap from 82 to 55ish rather than boiling wort down to pitching temps.

 

[hatrickwah]

I should add that the heated water leaving my CFC will go down the drain as before, but now I should need less than currently.

 

[lumpher]

i live in the dfw area, and have a 50' ic. i can chill down to around 75-80 in about 30 minutes. not a problem, since i'm watching tv drinking a mug or 2 during that time. i seal it in the fermenter, let it cool down in the house a little more, then pitch.

 

[cwi]

Thanks for the tip, I will check in to it. I am pretty certain the compressor has something since my friendly Fermtroller SSR issue clicks the unit on, but after it cycles once, the compressor doesn't come back on.

The ferm/brewtroller should have a parameter to delay activation after last cutoff. The safeguards built into the A/C unit can't be counted on to prevent hot starts when using an external controller.

The plate chiller will be my prechiller, run the tap through one side while running near freezing (if not colder) glycol through the other. This should mean I need fewer BTUs for cooling since I am only taking the tap from 82 to 55ish rather than boiling wort down to pitching temps.

The simplified math is just heat in/ heat out for BTUs. The tricky part is temperature differential, flow rates, thermal transfer barriers (chiller materials), recovery rates, etc. Also, no need to send the water down the drain. It can be saved and used as preheated cleaning water, or for the next batch if you are doubling up that day, or even just to water the yard if it is sprayed to cool it some.

For two CF chillers (plate or tube) in your setup, the best performance, whether lowest temp or fastest flow, would be gained by using them in series. Tap water as the chilling fluid for the first, and glycol for the second. It would complexify things a bit though by adding an extra chiller to clean and sanitize. As for making life more complex, that seems to be a built-in feature of the counter flow chillers- worrying about what is hiding inside the coils/plates, having to use hop backs for flame out additions to work, fiddling with flow rates to get the outflow temp right.

The ICs seem simpler with no real downsides other than needing to agitate the wort, and possibly increased water usage depending how you use it. They are sterilized easily by dunking them in the boil, get the whole wort down below critical temps faster, and temps can be controlled easily. I think this may be one device where the big brewhouses would like to use homebrew technology, but can't, because it doesn't scale.

The stainless ICs from NYBrewSupply give almost the same performance as copper, are cheaper than an equivalent copper IC, and he will custom build any size you want. Using tap water to get within 10-20F of tap water temps, then switching to a recirc'd chilled fluid lets any pitching temp be hit easily.

 

[hatrickwah]

Been a while since I updated, but it has been crazy busy, long nights, etc.
I finished most of my build last night, just a few tasks left. I also kegged off my first batch that I had fermenting in my first chamber. It sure looked good, and tasted good too. We will tasting it more tomorrow.
Anyway, after a few set backs I am finally close. The grand plan for the setup is to ultimately have 2 chambers, a conical, a plate chiller, and a beer cooler, but this will come in stages. For now, I finished assembling my two chambers, large enough for 3 carboys each, but designed for 2. I will be getting a plate chiller in the coming weeks. The cooler worked great with inaugural batch, 67 degree fermentation, and a 43 degree cold crash. I will post pictures and more details tomorrow as well as brew another batch to "test" out the system with.

 

[hatrickwah]

I'm almost done with phase 1 of my build. There is enough room (if I had a big enough kettle) to ferment 15 gallons in carboys in these things.

Each box has a 12v valve tied to the trunk glycol line running above. The valves are controlled by my Fermtroller unit to the right. The a/c glycol unit will be Fermtroller controlled as well some day, but for some reason I can't get the two to cooperate, so for now, that unit runs on a PID. I have a 320gph fountain pump running 24x7 inside the glycol unit. The flow inside the cooler is such that it must crossover the coil once it enters in order to exit.

Shot of the brewstation, with the Fermtroller unit, my music, and workstation. To the right in phase 2 there will be a 20 or 30 plate, plate chiller for pre-chilling my 85 degree tap water down to 50s. $12 a batch simply for ice is ridiculous.
Phase 3 will see the section underneath converted into a cooler box for my over flow of filled kegs. I have a few months though before that is needed as I have capacity for 10 in the keezer, and only own 12 kegs (for now).

 

[weslson]

hatrickwah, I was looking into building a simple cooling unit in an insulated cabinet and have been googling like crazy but not able to find those little radiators you have. Were those something you ordered, or repurposed from some other appliance?

 

[hatrickwah]

hatrickwah, I was looking into building a simple cooling unit in an insulated cabinet and have been googling like crazy but not able to find those little radiators you have. Were those something you ordered, or repurposed from some other appliance?

Actually, all you need to do is go to your local Auto parts store, they are called Transmission Coolers. I bought mine at O'Reilly Auto Parts for around $40. Here is the link to the category on their site. You can order online or pickup at their stores.
http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/search.oap?keyword=transmission+coolers+%26+accessories

 

[fuzzybee]

Sorry to dig up an old thread, but could you point me in the right direction for how you converted your AC unit to a glycol chiller?