New brewer stuff

[Zadkiel]

Hi All. On signing up I got a message asking me to post an intro in the intro forum, but I hope it's OK I sorta combine an intro with a couple of new brewer questions here instead?

Apologies in advance, I tend to be overly verbose. A colleague years ago told me I never use 10 words when 1000 will do.

I've been lurking here for a month or 2 now, leeching a load of helpful information from existing threads. Thought it time I make an account.

I'm 51 and live in London, UK. Thought many times in my life that I wanted to do brewing, but I've always had very limited space, even now my wife and I share a small 1 bedroom flat (US: apartment) with a kitchen that for 2 people to use at the same time, they have to be VERY friendly with each other.... so I always put it off, but in Jan this year my wife was struggling to buy me a birthday present and I suggested a starter homebrew equipment bundle and an extract porter kit, and now here we are with my 4th brew currently fermenting happily away in my new Inkbird fermentation fridge I built last weekend in our store cupboard (with MANY thanks to threads on these boards I used for reference).

I've been a beer snob most of my adult life. I have a large preference for dark beers, preferring a richer darker malt flavour in what I drink. Porters/Stouts, Dunkels, Belgian ales, that sort of thing. The only style I actively dislike is IPA - Pale Ale I love but too much hops are a real turn-off for me. This has made the last decade frustrating when 80% of the supermarket shelf became IPAs. I'm also not a huge fan of the recent popularity of 'hazy' beers, preferring a cleaner mouth-feel.

My first brew, the porter kit was... well I can say it was successful. it successfully completed exactly as it should and the resulting beer was... fine. But honestly one of the most basic porters I've ever drunk, extremely plain with just a simple malt note and nothing interesting or complex about it. Don't get me wrong, I had made my own beer and that was exciting as all hell. I even convinced myself for a few weeks that it was 'good' beer until I was honest with myself that while I was happy I'd made a beer successfully it was very underwhelming.

Then I decided to go a tiny bit more adventurous, still stick to an extract for my second beer but make my own decisions on yeast and hops. The Pale Ale I made was a huge improvement over my first brew in terms of interesting flavour, but I did miscalculate on my hops and dry hopped 50g Goldings & 50g Citra with no hop bag and the result, while not quite being IPA levels of hops, was too hoppy for a Pale Ale. Other than that it was really really good though, I ended up hosting a party for friends, several of whom are or have been homebrewers and they drank me dry of all the Pale Ale in 1 evening, with one of the homebrewers (an all-grain guy) declaring that for my second beer and from an extract it was amazing and it had taken him 5-10 brews before he made anything that good.

The fact that Pale Ale was so good and popular, and that I'd just been drunk dry of it, made me want to repeat it, except with the hops turned down, but that seemed a bit too samey, after all I'm trying to learn and grow and making the exact same beer twice in a row wasn't ideal so I thought I'd try and add Mango (my wife wants to try my beer but she only likes fruit beers). I did the same Pale Ale as before, with the hops reduced to 30g/30g and using a bag, and a secondary fermentation with an addition of 2kg of pulped mango flesh & juice on day 4 alongside the hops. The secondary fermentation seemed to go well but tasting at that point was disappointingly non-Mango so at bottling I added some concentrated natural mango essence I found online. I bottled that 2 weeks ago and tested a bottle last night after giving it enough time to carbonate, and it's... powerful. The Mango nose and sweetness is very strong but not completely overpowering, but as it is right now there's a weird transition where the initial flavour is quite bitter and then the strong mango comes in over the top of it and overpowers the bitterness and lingers a really long time. My first version of the Pale Ale didn't have that harsh initial bitterness so I'm hoping that's just because it's so green, and given a bit longer to condition, it'll fade and no longer result in that weird bitter-> sweet transition. Will try it again in 2 more weeks and I'm hopeful it will be better.

I then decided my last extract beer before I try switching to grain would be a wheat beer. We had a small heatwave due in the UK and I had no temperature control, but the Mangrove Jacks Wheat beer yeast (M20 I think it's called?) stated a range of 18-30C and I was sure I could keep it under 30 so I got it going... and it failed hard. Initial fermentation was insane, the Krausen was coming out the top of my airlock and the pressure inside got so high that on the first day of fermentation it popped the fermenter lid open 5 times. Then after just 2 days like that, it just stalled completely at about 1.024. Rousing up the sediment with some stirring got a brief amount of extra fermentation down to about 1.022 and then it stalled again. I pitched a second yeast packet, and nothing. After several days of it sitting at 1.022 and the wort tasting far too sweet (temp never went over 30C, was around 28C the whole time), I gave up and dumped it and started to build a fermentation fridge.

Fridge went really well, in part due to various threads on here, including one where a guy was using the EXACT same model Kenwood fridge that I bought and he had access to a Thermal Camera to work out where it was safe to drill and posted those thermal images here. (the drain hole isn't usable). SO useful. I might add some pics on here if I can be bothered to get them off my phone.

Fridge in place, I was ready to re-try the extract wheat beer, but I had been thinking about other variables that might have caused or contributed to the failure, and I realised that I'd also changed my water - I don't like our tap water, it's very hard and high in chlorine, so I'd been using cheap bottled spring water - but I'd bought from a different place for the failed ferment. I'd just discovered that water chemistry is a thing. I wasn't quite ready yet to go full on hard into water chemistry stuff but comparing the 2 I saw that the water I'd used in my successful brews had been 50ppm Calcium while the water in the failed one was only 7ppm Calcium, and google told me 50+ was important for the yeast. But ALL the guides on this are citing those values in the initial Mash, nothing about the wort, and as I'm using extracts at this point I'm very confused. I bought the 50ppm water and made my wort with the extract and LME, then measured the calcium... and it came out at 250ppm. I thought the test strips I bought must not be very good, they only have 5 graduations between 0 and 250 and jumps from 120 to 250, so I bought the salifert kit, once again thanks to info I gained lurking here on this forum, and re-tested it with the kit.... result 220ppm Ca. That meant the extract/LME I'm using is adding a HUGE amount of calcium, but I don't know if that's a problem, because like I said all the Ca info I can find online only talks about the levels in the mash water pre-mash, there's nothing about what the Ca level should be in the wort when using an extract, effectively post-mash. I decided not to worry about it and see what happens. That beer has been bubbling away all week at 22C in my new fridge which is working perfectly and so far is behaving exactly as expected. it's been just under 4 days since I added the yeast, fermentation has slowed but still generating pressure (plastic bucket so I can see the lid bulging) and occasional bubbles in the airlock, and I just tested the gravity at 1.020 (OG 1.050) - given the expected FG according to Mangrove Jacks for this is 1.016 and it's only 4 days in and still bubbling, I'm pretty sure everything is good.

So, yeah, that's me and where I am. I won't be brewing again for a while after I bottle this wheat beer as 2x 5 gallon brews will completely max me out on bottles and space to store them, and I won't brew again until I've freed up at least half of it, but I want to move on to grain now I've gained confidence in the basics. Space is still a problem so I'm thinking for my first grain batch I actually go partial grain - The Malt Miller here in the UK sell custom made 'mini mash' kits and I'm eying up this one: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/saison-mini-mash-kit/ or this one: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/cali-common-mini-mash-kit/ (I LOVE Anchor Steam, one of my goals at the start of this journey was to make my own Anchor Steam-a-like).

Would love feedback on the CA wort level stuff, any thoughts on the mini-mash kits as an intro towards using grain, or any thoughts on anything else I posted.

 

[mac_1103]

tl:dr

...but I will say that when you brew with extract you are more or less stuck with the water chemistry that the extract maker used. You may (or may not) be able to find some information on that from the manufacturer's website(s). Here's a start. If you're going to buy water for extract brewing you might as well buy distilled or RO water so you don't further complicate things. Some people do add salts for flavor; you can search the forums if you'd like to go down that rabbit hole.

Using mini-mash as a stepping stone vs going straight to all grain might depend on where you brew and what equipment you have, the advantage of the mini-mash approach being that you can probably do a pretty good sized batch using a fairly small kettle on your stove top.

...and welcome.

 

[Zadkiel]

I get that, I was just shocked at how high the Ca went with the extract - as the only info I can find online says Ca should be 50-150 but that's pre-mash water, I'm mostly just curious if a 200+ value in the post-mash wort is 'normal', that it's expected that the mashing adds so much Ca, or if the extract I'm using is unusually high. Regardless the fermentation seems to be going great.

Space is my main issue, my flat is small and my kitchen tiny, there's no way I can heat up a full mash, my burners are actually very powerful but the area is crowded with wall cupboards, I don't think a pot that large will even fit on my stove. I was thinking of going mini-mash first to experience a partial grain brew to compare it against extract-only, to judge whether I want to go full grain, which for me will mean investing in buying something like a grainfather S40 (or alternatives, I've noticed people here seem a little negative on the grainfather equipment and prefer the brewzilla equivalents) which I could run in the garden, but that's a lot of money to blow when I don't have any experience of grain vs extract.

 

[Zadkiel]

...and welcome.

And thanks. I totally understand why you just skipped to the end

 

[mac_1103]

I was just shocked at how high the Ca went with the extract - as the only info I can find online says Ca should be 50-150 but that's pre-mash water, I'm mostly just curious if a 200+ value in the post-mash wort is 'normal', that it's expected that the mashing adds so much Ca, or if the extract I'm using is unusually high.

You used water that had 50 ppm and extract that could easily have had 150 ppm or more. So it's really not surprising. To me anyway. And I could be wrong but I don't think it's so much a question of mashing adding Ca as it is about the water that the manufacturer mashed with.

 

[Zadkiel]

You used water that had 50 ppm and extract that could easily have had 150 ppm or more. So it's really not surprising. To me anyway. And I could be wrong but I don't think it's so much a question of mashing adding Ca as it is about the water that the manufacturer mashed with.

My water is 50 and the water + extract + LME is 220 meaning the extract alone, even in RO water, would result in 170ppm when dissolved to the recommended dilution. That's the bit that sorta broke me, why mangrove jacks would have their Ca so high that even in RO water it ends up higher than what I read everywhere is the recommended maximum, and their instructions say to use tap water. My tap water is 120ppm Ca, if I'd used that I'd be at 300 right now. But then I got to thinking, those numbers are for the pre-mash water, and I'm testing the wort, maybe mashing increases the Ca and 170ppm Ca in the wort actually represents a lower value in the pre-mash water?

Anyway, the beer is fermenting fine, and it's a wheat beer so a 'chewy' result is certainly not unexpected, it just got my brain whirring, I hate an unexplained mystery and I thought maybe someone here would know the answer.

 

[mac_1103]

what I read everywhere is the recommended maximum

Where did you read that there's a recommended maximum? I think you're worrying about this too much. Didn't you say that the beer you brewed with more calcium turned out better?

instructions say to use tap water

They're trying to get people into brewing, so they keep it simple.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

@Zadkiel
Before you go buy an all-in-one, lots of people here do all-grain, brew-in-a-bag, small (2.5 to 3 gallon) batches on our kitchen stoves. I can make 3 gallons of 1.065 OG wort in my 5.5 gallon kettle on my kitchen stove with about 7 lbs of malt easily enough. And for those times when I want to make higher gravity beer, a 3 lb bag of dried-malt-extract does a great job substituting for about 4.5 lbs of base malt. Once you do decide to go with all-grain and mashing, BrewersFriend software is pretty great. I only use reverse-osmosis filtered water from the store now, and add in my own Calcium Chloride, Gypsum, sea salt (for pale beers), and Baking Soda (for dark beers). BrewersFriend software makes it really easy to see what your salt additions will do to your mash water (and importantly, what you can expect your mash pH to be at).

Everyone here is friendly and happy to help a newbie out, so don't be afraid to ask just about anything brewing-related that you don't understand!

 

[Zadkiel]

Thanks, but that sort of volume isn't possible for me. You talk about a 5.5 gallon kettle, which is about the same capacity as my fermenter, there is NO way I could get even close to fitting a pot of the same capacity as my fermenter on my stove, not even close, not even half that capacity. I really can't overstress how tiny my kitchen is, and how much the area above and around my stovetop is covered in cupboards I mean, I could go for much smaller brews, I could look at doing say 1 gallon brews as all-grain tests, that might just about be doable, but I thought mini-mash would be simpler as then I'd be using my same fermenter and stuff. But that's why I'm asking people's opinion, I don't know how representative of all-grain, a mini-mash is.

Yeah, I'm aware of Brewers Friend, I even signed up for it a couple of weeks ago when I was trying to figure something out, but sadly it's no use to me yet, as it makes no accounting at all for all-extract brewing, until you enter values into fields such as mash water, sparge water, grain weights etc, it won't output anything. I'm sure it'll be useful one day when I get to that, but right now it's useless.

RO and Distiller water isn't something you can buy from the store here in the UK. Well I think you can get distilled water from a hardware store or garage maybe, for people wanting to use it in their car radiators and windscreen washer tanks, but supermarkets only carry spring water I'm pretty sure. Which means if I want to go that route I'd need to look into making it myself, which only adds to my storage space woes heh.

 

[Skeeter686]

I have no idea what your flat is like, except that if seems quite small. The idea of small batches seems like a good one. It reduces the number of bottles you'd need to store from each batch, and it lets you brew more often. Some people use an electric induction hot plate, which I would think you could set up on a counter top or a table. I don't know if that might be an option for you.

Also, might there be a brewing club in the vicinity? It's possible that they would have a space where you could brew. Or they might host group brews where you would have the room to brew with larger equipment.

In any case, welcome!

My own situation isn't as ideal for brewing as I'd prefer, but I make sacrifices for the hobby.

 

[mac_1103]

RO and Distiller water isn't something you can buy from the store here in the UK. Well I think you can get distilled water from a hardware store or garage maybe, for people wanting to use it in their car radiators and windscreen washer tanks, but supermarkets only carry spring water I'm pretty sure. Which means if I want to go that route I'd need to look into making it myself, which only adds to my storage space woes heh.

These filters remove 99.9% of TDS giving you almost RO water. They are slow however, so preparing 20+ liters for a batch requires some planning (and something to put the water in).

How big is your biggest pot and how many do you have? I think one advantage you folks have on your side of the pond is better electricity, so maybe a big induction plate outdoors would work for you?

I did a few mini-mash and all-grain batches before I knew anything about water chemistry and mash pH and all of that. They were fine, but those are things that you eventually have to concern yourself with if you're going to mash grain.

 

[Dave C01]

Hi All. On signing up I got a message asking me to post an intro in the intro forum, but I hope it's OK I sorta combine an intro with a couple of new brewer questions here instead?

Apologies in advance, I tend to be overly verbose. A colleague years ago told me I never use 10 words when 1000 will do.

I've been lurking here for a month or 2 now, leeching a load of helpful information from existing threads. Thought it time I make an account.

I'm 51 and live in London, UK. Thought many times in my life that I wanted to do brewing, but I've always had very limited space, even now my wife and I share a small 1 bedroom flat (US: apartment) with a kitchen that for 2 people to use at the same time, they have to be VERY friendly with each other.... so I always put it off, but in Jan this year my wife was struggling to buy me a birthday present and I suggested a starter homebrew equipment bundle and an extract porter kit, and now here we are with my 4th brew currently fermenting happily away in my new Inkbird fermentation fridge I built last weekend in our store cupboard (with MANY thanks to threads on these boards I used for reference).

I've been a beer snob most of my adult life. I have a large preference for dark beers, preferring a richer darker malt flavour in what I drink. Porters/Stouts, Dunkels, Belgian ales, that sort of thing. The only style I actively dislike is IPA - Pale Ale I love but too much hops are a real turn-off for me. This has made the last decade frustrating when 80% of the supermarket shelf became IPAs. I'm also not a huge fan of the recent popularity of 'hazy' beers, preferring a cleaner mouth-feel.

My first brew, the porter kit was... well I can say it was successful. it successfully completed exactly as it should and the resulting beer was... fine. But honestly one of the most basic porters I've ever drunk, extremely plain with just a simple malt note and nothing interesting or complex about it. Don't get me wrong, I had made my own beer and that was exciting as all hell. I even convinced myself for a few weeks that it was 'good' beer until I was honest with myself that while I was happy I'd made a beer successfully it was very underwhelming.

Then I decided to go a tiny bit more adventurous, still stick to an extract for my second beer but make my own decisions on yeast and hops. The Pale Ale I made was a huge improvement over my first brew in terms of interesting flavour, but I did miscalculate on my hops and dry hopped 50g Goldings & 50g Citra with no hop bag and the result, while not quite being IPA levels of hops, was too hoppy for a Pale Ale. Other than that it was really really good though, I ended up hosting a party for friends, several of whom are or have been homebrewers and they drank me dry of all the Pale Ale in 1 evening, with one of the homebrewers (an all-grain guy) declaring that for my second beer and from an extract it was amazing and it had taken him 5-10 brews before he made anything that good.

The fact that Pale Ale was so good and popular, and that I'd just been drunk dry of it, made me want to repeat it, except with the hops turned down, but that seemed a bit too samey, after all I'm trying to learn and grow and making the exact same beer twice in a row wasn't ideal so I thought I'd try and add Mango (my wife wants to try my beer but she only likes fruit beers). I did the same Pale Ale as before, with the hops reduced to 30g/30g and using a bag, and a secondary fermentation with an addition of 2kg of pulped mango flesh & juice on day 4 alongside the hops. The secondary fermentation seemed to go well but tasting at that point was disappointingly non-Mango so at bottling I added some concentrated natural mango essence I found online. I bottled that 2 weeks ago and tested a bottle last night after giving it enough time to carbonate, and it's... powerful. The Mango nose and sweetness is very strong but not completely overpowering, but as it is right now there's a weird transition where the initial flavour is quite bitter and then the strong mango comes in over the top of it and overpowers the bitterness and lingers a really long time. My first version of the Pale Ale didn't have that harsh initial bitterness so I'm hoping that's just because it's so green, and given a bit longer to condition, it'll fade and no longer result in that weird bitter-> sweet transition. Will try it again in 2 more weeks and I'm hopeful it will be better.

I then decided my last extract beer before I try switching to grain would be a wheat beer. We had a small heatwave due in the UK and I had no temperature control, but the Mangrove Jacks Wheat beer yeast (M20 I think it's called?) stated a range of 18-30C and I was sure I could keep it under 30 so I got it going... and it failed hard. Initial fermentation was insane, the Krausen was coming out the top of my airlock and the pressure inside got so high that on the first day of fermentation it popped the fermenter lid open 5 times. Then after just 2 days like that, it just stalled completely at about 1.024. Rousing up the sediment with some stirring got a brief amount of extra fermentation down to about 1.022 and then it stalled again. I pitched a second yeast packet, and nothing. After several days of it sitting at 1.022 and the wort tasting far too sweet (temp never went over 30C, was around 28C the whole time), I gave up and dumped it and started to build a fermentation fridge.

Fridge went really well, in part due to various threads on here, including one where a guy was using the EXACT same model Kenwood fridge that I bought and he had access to a Thermal Camera to work out where it was safe to drill and posted those thermal images here. (the drain hole isn't usable). SO useful. I might add some pics on here if I can be bothered to get them off my phone.

Fridge in place, I was ready to re-try the extract wheat beer, but I had been thinking about other variables that might have caused or contributed to the failure, and I realised that I'd also changed my water - I don't like our tap water, it's very hard and high in chlorine, so I'd been using cheap bottled spring water - but I'd bought from a different place for the failed ferment. I'd just discovered that water chemistry is a thing. I wasn't quite ready yet to go full on hard into water chemistry stuff but comparing the 2 I saw that the water I'd used in my successful brews had been 50ppm Calcium while the water in the failed one was only 7ppm Calcium, and google told me 50+ was important for the yeast. But ALL the guides on this are citing those values in the initial Mash, nothing about the wort, and as I'm using extracts at this point I'm very confused. I bought the 50ppm water and made my wort with the extract and LME, then measured the calcium... and it came out at 250ppm. I thought the test strips I bought must not be very good, they only have 5 graduations between 0 and 250 and jumps from 120 to 250, so I bought the salifert kit, once again thanks to info I gained lurking here on this forum, and re-tested it with the kit.... result 220ppm Ca. That meant the extract/LME I'm using is adding a HUGE amount of calcium, but I don't know if that's a problem, because like I said all the Ca info I can find online only talks about the levels in the mash water pre-mash, there's nothing about what the Ca level should be in the wort when using an extract, effectively post-mash. I decided not to worry about it and see what happens. That beer has been bubbling away all week at 22C in my new fridge which is working perfectly and so far is behaving exactly as expected. it's been just under 4 days since I added the yeast, fermentation has slowed but still generating pressure (plastic bucket so I can see the lid bulging) and occasional bubbles in the airlock, and I just tested the gravity at 1.020 (OG 1.050) - given the expected FG according to Mangrove Jacks for this is 1.016 and it's only 4 days in and still bubbling, I'm pretty sure everything is good.

So, yeah, that's me and where I am. I won't be brewing again for a while after I bottle this wheat beer as 2x 5 gallon brews will completely max me out on bottles and space to store them, and I won't brew again until I've freed up at least half of it, but I want to move on to grain now I've gained confidence in the basics. Space is still a problem so I'm thinking for my first grain batch I actually go partial grain - The Malt Miller here in the UK sell custom made 'mini mash' kits and I'm eying up this one: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/saison-mini-mash-kit/ or this one: https://www.themaltmiller.co.uk/product/cali-common-mini-mash-kit/ (I LOVE Anchor Steam, one of my goals at the start of this journey was to make my own Anchor Steam-a-like).

Would love feedback on the CA wort level stuff, any thoughts on the mini-mash kits as an intro towards using grain, or any thoughts on anything else I posted.

Depending on what part of London you are living in ? I would recommend starting with Spotless Water when mashing or partial mashing. Then use Brewfather to calculate treatment.

 

[MaxStout]

If you switch to all-grain, consider doing 1 gallon batches. Easy to do with a smaller kettle and it gives you the room to experiment a lot. A 2.5-3 gallon kettle and BIAB. For fermenters, just some gallon jugs, bungs and airlocks and you're in business.

There's a (very large!) thread devoted to 1 gallon brews.

 

[Mark3885]

Verbose is an understatement, sorry I got lost in your first post , but you are more than welcome to the forum. Sorry for being honest.

 

[Zadkiel]

These filters remove 99.9% of TDS giving you almost RO water. They are slow however, so preparing 20+ liters for a batch requires some planning (and something to put the water in).

Whoah, those are very interesting. Thanks. Time for me is one resource I do have an abundance of

How big is your biggest pot and how many do you have? I think one advantage you folks have on your side of the pond is better electricity, so maybe a big induction plate outdoors would work for you?

Right now, I don't have any large pot. my largest saucepan I just measured and it's about 2.7L filled to the brim, that's half a gallon for you folks . Needing to buy a larger pot was always going to be necessary, even for a mini-mash.

Yes, our power is better than yours, our standard household sockets can push about 3.1KW (240v@13A), and if you're confident in the wiring and willing to bypass the 13A fuse you can push to 6-7KW.

I did a few mini-mash and all-grain batches before I knew anything about water chemistry and mash pH and all of that. They were fine, but those are things that you eventually have to concern yourself with if you're going to mash grain.

Yeah, I know. i read up and learned about water chemistry but I don't really want to go fully down that rabbithole for a while yet. it was only because I happened to notice that the water I used in my failed one only had 7ppm calcium and had read that yeast wants at least 50 that made me curious to buy some simple Ca test strips to work out if I was under 50 in my wort and that was why it has failed, and then ended up confused when they showed the complete opposite result to what I expected.

Small batches is an interesting idea, but it seems... unproductive. I dunno, I went straight in to 5G/23l to start with because I was starting with kits and the other option was 5l and that seemed not worth the time investment, but maybe I need to adjust my thinking towards learning rather than efficiency. Mostly I'm after feedback as to how representative, in terms of the quality of the beer, is mini-mash vs full grain? is trying out mini-mash going to tell me whether I want to invest in the all-in-one, or not really help me make that decision.

 

[mac_1103]

Mostly I'm after feedback as to how representative, in terms of the quality of the beer, is mini-mash vs full grain?

Kind of an unanswerable question. There isn't necessarily a hierarchy of quality from extract to partial mash to all grain. People win awards with extract beers. People make bad all grain beers. What does increase as you go from extract to all grain is flexibility in recipes.

is trying out mini-mash going to tell me whether I want to invest in the all-in-one, or not really help me make that decision.

Also hard to say. But maybe this is where you shouldn't be so quick to write off the small batch option. You could brew the same beer all three ways and judge for yourself.

 

[Zadkiel]

But maybe this is where you shouldn't be so quick to write off the small batch option. You could brew the same beer all three ways and judge for yourself.

Not being quick to write it off at all I'll admit I was liking the idea of mini-mash, mostly because I'd found some mini-mash kits here in the UK that I really liked the look at, but even before your last post, I was seeing that, while no-one was hard committing, the general consensus in the thread seemed to be saying they think I'll get more out of all-grain small batch than a mini-mash, so now I'm leaning that way.

Thanks!

 

[Zadkiel]

Depending on what part of London you are living in ? I would recommend starting with Spotless Water when mashing or partial mashing. Then use Brewfather to calculate treatment.

Interesting service but not feasible for me

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I think you will really struggle to fit even 16 ounces of grain in that tiny kettle for a mash, and trying to make that work for anything more than just enough base malt to convert the few ounces of unmalted adjuncts (like flaked oats/wheat/etc) is likely to be highly frustrating, and very sensitive to small measurement errors.

If you're not sure the all-in-one is a good investment, consider an induction cooktop that you can set up somewhere with a little more room, and at least a 5 gallon kettle (which will be perfect for small-batches, 2 to 3 gallons of regular strength beer, or 5 gallon batches but done as partial mash plus malt-extract).

 

[Zadkiel]

I think you will really struggle to fit even 16 ounces of grain in that tiny kettle for a mash, and trying to make that work for anything more than just enough base malt to convert the few ounces of unmalted adjuncts (like flaked oats/wheat/etc) is likely to be highly frustrating, and very sensitive to small measurement errors.

I think you misunderstood, I was never ever suggesting using that pot, I was asked me what was my currently largest pot I know I'll need to get something.

So question I have now is, if I go small-batch, either 1 or 2 gallon, can I use my existing 30L fermenter that I've been using for the larger batches, or should I use a smaller one?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I think you misunderstood, I was never ever suggesting using that pot, I was asked me what was my currently largest pot I know I'll need to get something.

Gotcha, that will be workable then!

So question I have now is, if I go small-batch, either 1 or 2 gallon, can I use my existing 30L fermenter that I've been using for the larger batches, or should I use a smaller one?

Definitely get something smaller! Something around 150% of the size of your batches, but definitely under 200%.

Also, I will just argue that "half-size" (2.5 to 3.0 gallons)* batches are pretty great, because almost every recipe you see here is aimed at "5 gallons" (at least for us metrically challenged old people), and it's nice and easy to just halve all the ingredients when you are copying a recipe and entering it into your favorite software.

And by "5 gallon" batch, that's the amount typically ready for packaging, after kettle and fermenter losses (trub/sludge in the bottom).

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I know I'll need to get something.

Some questions to consider before selecting a 'batch size':

• what heat source will you use to heat the water rapidly to mash temperature?
• how will you maintain the mash temperature for 45 to 60 (maybe 90) minutes?
• what heat source will you use to heat the wort rapidly to a boil?
• will the heat source support a (slow) boil for 60 to 90 minutes?
• how will you rapidly chill the wort from a boil to pitching temperature?

@Hoochin'Fool (above) suggested

If you're not sure the all-in-one is a good investment, consider an induction cooktop that you can set up somewhere with a little more room, and at least a 5 gallon kettle (which will be perfect for small-batches, 2 to 3 gallons of regular strength beer, or 5 gallon batches but done as partial mash plus malt-extract).

and that is likely the "best answer" - assuming you can heat / chill 2.5 gal of wort in a reasonable time.

 

[Zadkiel]

Some questions to consider before selecting a 'batch size':

• what heat source will you use to heat the water rapidly to mash temperature?
• how will you maintain the mash temperature for 45 to 60 (maybe 90) minutes?
• what heat source will you use to heat the wort rapidly to a boil?
• will the heat source support a (slow) boil for 60 to 90 minutes?

heating power I think I have covered.

• how will you rapidly chill the wort from a boil to pitching temperature?

How 'rapid' needs be be rapid? I have a fermentation fridge that in my testing cools 5 gallons/23L by 1.6C (about 3F) per hour, so should cool 5L/1G by 8C/15F per hour, 10L/2G by 4C/7.5F per hour.

 

[Zadkiel]

Verbose is an understatement, sorry I got lost in your first post , but you are more than welcome to the forum. Sorry for being honest.

I completely understand. I've been having so much fun doing this for the last 5 months with no-one to talk to about it (other than my friends when they came to the party, and only 2 of those have been brewers) so when I decided to post on here, it all came rushing out. Thanks for the welcome.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

How 'rapid' needs be be rapid?

Can you provide process steps and brew day notes for your first two batches?

I'm willing to have a discussion, but I'm not going to play "wack-a-mole".

 

[Zadkiel]

OK, never mind, I think we're completely at cross-purposes here.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

How 'rapid' needs be be rapid?

For most published recipes, 'rapid' is chilling the entire wort, regardless of size, down to pitching temperatures in (ideally) less than 30 minutes.

edits: typoz

 

[Zadkiel]

Um, really? I had no idea that was a thing. I'm sure I've read on here people talking about cooling their wort over long periods, overnight even? Maybe I'm misunderstanding something.

Honestly if this is true, then I'm just gonna get an all-in-one. Seems a huge waste of money to get the induction heater, the pot, apparently now also some sort of chiller just as a 'test'.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'm sure I've read on here people talking about cooling their wort over long periods, overnight even?

It's called 'no chill' brewing. You may want/need to make some adjustments to the recipe for the extra bitterness that is extracted while cooling.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

No one mentioned Small Space & Apartment Brewing (Stack Exchange from 2010) - which may be the inspiration for additional searches. IIRC, in the mid 2010s there were a couple of "apartment brewing" blogs and there is currently a UT channel or two with "apartment brewing" in the channel name. Finally, this article (from about a year ago) is a very high level outline - if one reads it and finds nothing new, one's research is pretty solid.

For those outside the US, note that almost all US home brewers have the kitchen space and equipment to brew 2.5 gal batches with existing equipment. And kitchen sinks are big enough use for chilling without additional equipment (although cool down for a 2.5 gal batch can be closer to 60 min than 30 min).

For those outside the US, Palmer's new (2025) book is apparently about 2.5 gal all grain brewing in the kitchen. Maybe those ideas scale down to tiny kitchens.

 

[Zadkiel]

Interested in folk's input.

So I've been struggling with what was going to be my last all-extract brew before the great grain experiment, a bavarian wheat beer using a mangrove jacks extract and their M20 yeast.

My first attempt I mentioned before that I ended up dumping. I used brew enhancer for my extra sugar, it started with an OG of only 1.040 and died first at 1.024 and then after I managed to rouse it a little, again at 1.022, not even reaching 50% attenuation. I chalked it down to temperature issues - M20 states a range of 18-30C, one reason I chose that particular kit, because I had no temperature control and the UK was going to be warm that week, it blasted through in only 2 days at 28C and then stuck.

After making my fermentation fridge, I decided to repeat the same beer, to get a confirmation that it was the temperature that killed it the first time. I did make one small change however which was swapping the 1KG of beer enhancer for MJ's 1.5KG wheat LME https://mangrovejacks.com/products/pure-liquid-malt-extract-wheat - this time OG was 1.050, much more respectable for reaching the target ABV of 4.7%. Mangrove Jacks state that the expected FG for that Extract and LME combination is 1.016, although oddly my maths says 1.014 should be more correct, which could match both the target ABV but also the expected attenuation of the M20 yeast. I pitched at 22C which is apparently the ideal temp for M20 and kept it in my fridge at 22C. All seemed to be going well, it slowly over 4 days worked away and got to 1.020 and then got stuck. After 2 days stuck at 1.020 I gave the fermenter a good 'swishing' to try and rouse it a little but that doesn't seem to have helped any, a day later it's still the same. over those 3 days I also raised the temp, first to 23C and then to 24.

I did aerate it well before adding the yeast, which was evenly sprinkled on top and not stirred in. I also added some yeast nutrient when the wort was warm. PH was 5.3. This time attenuation got to about 60%. I think I'm doing things right because both of my previous brews hit their expected FG, don't know why this Mangrove Jacks Wheat kit is giving me so much trouble

 

[Zadkiel]

Oh, almost forgot to ask my actual question - if I decide to bottle this and see what happens, does the fact that it only attenuated to 60% mean I shouldn't add any bottling sugar?

 

[mac_1103]

How are you measuring gravity?

 

[Zadkiel]

How are you measuring gravity?

Hydrometer. I did actually wonder if it might be my hydrometer at fault as I did break my old one and buy another recently, so I tested it in 20C tap water and got 1.000 right on the money.

I've actually been reading around online and found threads in quite a lot of different forums also discussing M20 getting stuck at 1.020, most of them people accepted it and bottled, but on one thread the dude said he left it and after waiting an extra 2 weeks (3 weeks total) it suddenly came back to life and finished. Hmmm.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

if I decide to bottle this and see what happens, does the fact that it only attenuated to 60% mean I shouldn't add any bottling sugar?

To avoid gushers (or worse) you need to know that it has finished fermenting.

60% attenuation with M20 (Bavarian Wheat) suggests it's not done fermenting. MJ product information (link) suggests "Attenuation: Medium (70 - 75%)". Dry strains in this range of attenuation (e.g. Windsor) tend to struggle when fermenting DME/LME.

If the yeast is currently exhausted, but hasn't finished fermenting, it's plausible that the yeast could recover / repopulate over the next couple of weeks and finish. Better to finish in the fermenter than in the bottle.

 

[Ramjet]

Welcome, and you should probably calibrate your hydrometer in distilled water.

 

[Zadkiel]

If the yeast is currently exhausted, but hasn't finished fermenting, it's plausible that the yeast could recover / repopulate over the next couple of weeks and finish. Better to finish in the fermenter than in the bottle.

That does seem to match up with what I read, thanks. Nice to have multiple sources of knowledge.
I've read about a technique called the 'rapid ferment test', which is basically to take a sample of the 'stuck' wort, check it in a hydrometer, pour from the hydrometer to another small vessel and lightly seal it, shake it a lot to aerate it and put it somewhere at 30C, shaking it up every now and again. After 2-3 days put back in the hydrometer tube and re-test. if the gravity has gone down, then that means what's in the fermenter is worth letting it sit and hopefully finish, if it's still stuck, then it's likely nothing will happen in the fermenter. I might try that. Or I can just be patient.

 

[Zadkiel]

Welcome, and you should probably calibrate your hydrometer in distilled water.

Thanks! I wasn't trying to calibrate it, just a sanity check that it wasn't completely off the mark

 

[Rish]

I'd suggest giving it more time. I do extract beers (plus steeped grain) and I never touch them until 4 weeks in the fv, then verify FG a few days apart. The extra time doesn't hurt, let's yeast clean up and things settle for clear beer. Good luck!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'd suggest giving it more time.

+1

I do extract beers (plus steeped grain) and I never touch them until 4 weeks in the fv, then verify FG a few days apart. The extra time doesn't hurt, let's yeast clean up and things settle for clear beer

I won't disagree with that approach ...

... but allow me to suggest an alternative approach ...

... over the years (10+) of brewing, with my DME/LME batches, I've migrated away from lower AA & lower flocculation dry yeast strains - and with the higher AA / flocuculation strains, the result is that I almost always get to estimated FG (± ~ 2) in 10 to 14 days. No gushers, no bombs (knocks on wood)

I brew a mix of DME & BIAB - so if a recipe seems to require a lower AA yeast (which often 'requires' a lower mash temperature), I'll start with BIAB.