New Beer TV show on Discovery! "How Beer saved the world"

[BelligerentAlbino]

when my girlfriend was up I asked her to grab me a......BEER. Not sure I can say the word without an obnoxious pause and strained pronunciation.

The only good part was the chic that implied she does sexual favors for..... BEER. see there I go again.

 

[doctorRobert]

I hope you're pulling my leg.

Kinda presumptuous, no? References please. And don't tell me "Blank Expert Said So". Everyone is an expert in their own mind.

How did they crush the barley? Stone mills before they knew beer was beer? How did they measure ABV without hydrometers or some other modern piece of equipment? Floating weighted straw husks? How could modern man possibly even know what ABV they produced considering it would have evaporated thousands of years ago?

I respect what you say because clearly you are a man who knows his stuff, but I am a scientist by nature and I like facts.

Ugh. I don't know why most people have the perception that everyone came before must have been complete retards, because they had fewer luxeries.

It was very likely to be high in abv based on the ability to hold off bacteria, travel well, and it got people drunk, go read benjamin franklins biography, which references strong and weak beer.

The fact people were kilning grains 1000 years ago (per moshers book), means they knew, at least a little bit, what they were doing. Give them some credit. You don't need a hydrometer to figure this out. They made 80 proof whiskey without that kind of science, I'm sure they figured out how to make strong beer.

Beer was invented 10,000 years ago. They even know grains needed to be malted then. After 9000 years, I'm sure they figured some **** out, like how to make a decent session beer, and how to make a beer for Friday night.

For you to be correct, people would have to ignore recipe creation for all of history until they invented the hydrometer. I'm sure it didn't take long to learn more barley equals more fun.

Id suggest you go out and get any of randy moshers book. His radical brewing book is quite excellent.

 

[bob1852]

 

[bob1852]

How did they crush the barley?

Stone mills before they knew beer was beer?

Considering they were making bread (i.e. flour) before they were making beer......I'm sure they knew how to grind grains.

How did they measure ABV without hydrometers or some other modern piece of equipment? Floating weighted straw husks?

They probably experimented with a bunch of different batches and figured out that Johnny's (who use A LOT more grain/bread in his beer) didn't go sour as quick.

Just because they didn't "measure" OG/FG/ABV, doesn't mean it was 1-2% ABV beer.

How could modern man possibly even know what ABV they produced considering it would have evaporated thousands of years ago?

That's easy; take an ancient recipe and run the numbers...

 

[sudsmcgee]

Grab any book and start reading.

Here's a bit on Partigyling for instance. http://***********/component/resource/article/2021-parti-gyle-brewing-techniques

Or the history of porters, or "shilling beers"

You could also search some of the historical references I've posted in here. Hell look at any info on DOgfish heads beers, both on here and elsewhere. All those beers were pretty strong.

I don't where you got your notions, but if you you can make flour for baking, you can make beer...and they've been making both since prior to ancient Babylon...if fact in the prayer to nikasi they outiline their recipe for brewing with bread. Google Bappir or Maltose Falcons Babylon brewing. Some of my stuff is here https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/brewing-bread-209505/#post2459997

Besides you don't have to take a gravity reading to make a strong beer. X pounds of grain = Y abv points, so if they were using 10 pounds of grain for a 5 gallon batch of beer it sure as heck wasn't a 1-2% beer.

1-2% abv beers?!?! Sheesh.......

Perhaps we should establish some timelines here. I am referring to beer production before man knew what "beer" really was or how it was made. When beer was known as safe water.

I don't know how long ago this was, but this show referenced the earliest production of "beer". So my question is, how long ago did modern "beer" start to get produced. I read that hops weren't added until hundreds of years ago.

 

[Revvy]

Perhaps we should establish some timelines here. I am referring to beer production before man knew what "beer" really was or how it was made. When beer was known as safe water.

I don't know how long ago this was, but this show referenced the earliest production of "beer". So my question is, how long ago did modern "beer" start to get produced. I read that hops weren't added until hundreds of years ago.

We don't need to establish anything.....I've given you posts goign back to ancinet babylon in the above...

And how bout this stuff I posted today. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/dangers-homebrewing-124653/index2.html#post2597566 And more in there as well.

Google is a good thing too.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Ugh. I don't know why most people have the perception that everyone came before must have been complete retards, because they had fewer luxeries.

It was very likely to be high in abv based on the ability to hold off bacteria, travel well, and it got people drunk, go read benjamin franklins biography, which references strong and weak beer.

Yeah, but I'm talking about the original beer made 10,000 years ago. The earliest beer that started the whole interest in beer in general. They clearly didn't mash the barley at that point. I'm looking to clear up the historical origin of beer, not to dispute how it progressed over the years.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Technically, this didn't happen until the last millennium.

 

[sudsmcgee]

That's easy; take an ancient recipe and run the numbers...

Using what strain of yeast? Everyone assumes they had modern strains that tolerate high ABV.

 

[Revvy]

Using what strain of yeast? Everyone assumes they had modern strains that tolerate high ABV.

Dude, it seems like you are trolling now...how aboutyou start reading some of those links I just took time out posting for you since you seemed un interested to do it for yourself. Then why don't you have a new tab opened up to google, and when something interesting pops up, then google that and it will take you on the same journey most of us did to learn this information we're sharing. I think you have enough to clear up those misconceptions you are operating under. Like I said, in the last few minutes, while wathcing the pro-bowl I manged to dig up links referring to 8-10,000 years of brewing history and post them...SO I'm sure you can make use of them.

 

[Revvy]

Using what strain of yeast? Everyone assumes they had modern strains that tolerate high ABV.

Look up "Yeast sticks" while you are at it.....

 

[sudsmcgee]

We don't need to establish anything.....I've given you posts goign back to ancinet babylon in the above...

And how bout this stuff I posted today. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/dangers-homebrewing-124653/index2.html#post2597566 And more in there as well.

Google is a good thing too.

Great, that reference goes back 5,500 years. What about the prior 4,500 years? I'm not disputing you, just looking for the earliest recorded history.

 

[doctorRobert]

Yeah, but I'm talking about the original beer made 10,000 years ago. The earliest beer that started the whole interest in beer in general. They clearly didn't mash the barley at that point. I'm looking to clear up the historical origin of beer, not to dispute how it progressed over the years.

They did mash. Also is randy mosher's book radical brewing.

 

[Revvy]

Great, that reference goes back 5,500 years. What about the prior 4,500 years? I'm not disputing you, just looking for the earliest recorded history.

 

[sudsmcgee]

Dude, it seems like you are trolling now...how aboutyou start reading some of those links I just took time out posting for you since you seemed un interested to do it for yourself. Then why don't you have a new tab opened up to google, and when something interesting pops up, then google that and it will take you on the same journey most of us did to learn this information we're sharing. I think you have enough to clear up those misconceptions you are operating under. Like I said, in the last few minutes, while wathcing the pro-bowl I manged to dig up links referring to 8-10,000 years of brewing history and post them...SO I'm sure you can make use of them.

I'm not trolling. So I'm supposed to read 10,000 years of history while we've been having this discussion that has lasted less than one hour? Let's get real now.

You've constantly copied text from your prior posts here. I was hoping you'd copy one single reference relating to brewing from 10,000 years ago. Sorry to have bothered you. I'll go and research it.

 

[sudsmcgee]

I guess that's one way to be a *********.

 

[sudsmcgee]

They did mash. Also is randy mosher's book radical brewing.

And how qualified is Randy Mosher? A quick search showed not very much.

 

[bob1852]

Using what strain of yeast? Everyone assumes they had modern strains that tolerate high ABV.

I don't assume that. I assume they used wild yeast...

FWIW, the Apache Indians made a beer called tiswin or tulapai where they "malted" corn; dried it; ground it; mashed it; and fermented it with wild yeast in trenches lined with corn husks. ABV? I would assume ~6% based on the recipes I've seen from the Apache's themselves.

Nevermind. You're right. They used Wyeast 1056 and sanitized with Star-San 10,000 years ago....

And since hops have only been used in brewing for a few hundred years; beer is technically only a few hundred years old.

 

[count_dookie]

What was the other thing they said? Back in the middle ages that each person drank 90 liters a year. 6 times more than today. Huh? I must drink a lot.

I just did the math on that and it works out to just over 8oz of beer a day, I dont think I could live in such primitive times

 

[Revvy]

I guess that's one way to be a *********.

Another way, a bigger way to be a DB, is everytime someone takes time to post some info for you, or in my case, do the searching that you could do yourself, to provide links to help you, you promptly say it isn't good enough for you. You did that to each and every poster in here, besides me who posted some bit of info for you, EVEN if it was just a cartoon. It's as if after we wipe your butt for you, you complain that the paper was too hard, or we didn't put talcom powder on you. You didn't even thank ANY of us for taking the time to do what we did. All you did was complain and ask more more more...Or shoot down the info...Or ask about the qualifications....That's what I call D-baggery.

*shrug*

 

[doctorRobert]

And how qualified is Randy Mosher? A quick search showed not very much.

Search harder and go buy his book! Really, you won't regret it from a beer history perspective or a brewing perspective.

 

[doctorRobert]

I'm not trolling. So I'm supposed to read 10,000 years of history while we've been having this discussion that has lasted less than one hour? Let's get real now.

You've constantly copied text from your prior posts here. I was hoping you'd copy one single reference relating to brewing from 10,000 years ago. Sorry to have bothered you. I'll go and research it.

I'm sorry. Were we suppose to read 10000 years of history and report back? Is that what you wanted?

People have spent their entire lives researching the questions you're asking. If you really want to know, go become an anthropologist.

 

[sudsmcgee]

You're right everyone. I'm completely wrong and the original un-crushed barley that got accidentally left in water 10,000 years ago that was put in contact with wild yeast was capable of producing of producing a 6% ABV beer. I'm so sorry that I brought such a trivial subject into the discussion here. I'll go and get my PhD in beer history now so that I can learn a little bit and one day be worth of asking questions here on this wonderful site full of helpful people who have so far provided ONE historical book worth reading like I asked.

Oh, and Revvy says I'm supposed to say thanks for not answering my questions.

 

[sudsmcgee]

I'm sorry. Were we suppose to read 10000 years of history and report back? Is that what you wanted?

People have spent their entire lives researching the questions you're asking. If you really want to know, go become an anthropologist.

No, I asked for ONE simple factual historical book. Thankfully one book was provided and I thank him for that.

 

[doctorRobert]

You're right everyone. I'm completely wrong and the original un-crushed barley that got accidentally left in water 10,000 years ago that was put in contact with wild yeast was capable of producing of producing a 6% ABV beer. I'm so sorry that I brought such a trivial subject into the discussion here. I'll go and get my PhD in beer history now so that I can learn a little bit and one day be worth of asking questions here on this wonderful site full of helpful people who have so far provided ONE historical book worth reading like I asked.

Oh, and Revvy says I'm supposed to say thanks for not answering my questions.

Please tell me how you know the barley was uncrushed? Who told you that? Are they credible?

 

[dunnright00]

Great, that reference goes back 5,500 years. What about the prior 4,500 years? I'm not disputing you, just looking for the earliest recorded history.

Uhm, most recorded history only goes back to about 5-6 thousand years.

Anything before that is just theory.

 

[bob1852]

You're right everyone. I'm completely wrong and the original un-crushed barley that got accidentally left in water 10,000 years ago that was put in contact with wild yeast was capable of producing of producing a 6% ABV beer. I'm so sorry that I brought such a trivial subject into the discussion here. I'll go and get my PhD in beer history now so that I can learn a little bit and one day be worth of asking questions here on this wonderful site full of helpful people who have so far provided ONE historical book worth reading like I asked.

Oh, and Revvy says I'm supposed to say thanks for not answering my questions.

Wow, and you called Revvy a *********?

Glass houses my friend; glass houses....

 

[RobBug]

West Coast showing. Let the cheese begin!

 

[sudsmcgee]

Please tell me how you know the barley was uncrushed? Who told you that? Are they credible?

I don't know. What I do know is that barley grows on the plant uncrushed, and until they learned that crusing it made the starches more available, they had no reason to crush it.

 

[dunnright00]

Also, the quote that started these last two pages is Here:

What was the other thing they said? Back in the middle ages that each person drank 90 liters a year. 6 times more than today. Huh? I must drink a lot.

and you're response here:

Beer in those days was 1-2% abv at best. It was their equivalent of water. It was NOT the beer we drink today. That was perhaps the only thing the show got right. :cross:

So, the first quote is referencing the Middle Ages. You infer that your reply is about beer made 10,000 years ago.

 

[bob1852]

The Hymn to Ninkasi

Borne of the flowing water (...)
Tenderly cared for by the Ninhursag,
Borne of the flowing water (...)
Tenderly cared for by the Ninhursag,

Having founded your town by the sacred lake,
She finished its great walls for you,
Ninkasi, having founded your town by the sacred lake,
She finished its great walls for you

Your father is Enki, Lord Nidimmud,
Your mother is Ninti, the queen of the sacred lake,
Ninkasi, Your father is Enki, Lord Nidimmud,
Your mother is Ninti, the queen of the sacred lake.

You are the one who handles the dough,
[and] with a big shovel,
Mixing in a pit, the bappir with sweet aromatics,
Ninkasi, You are the one who handles
the dough, [and] with a big shovel,
Mixing in a pit, the bappir with [date]-honey.

You are the one who bakes the bappir
in the big oven,
Puts in order the piles of hulled grains,
Ninkasi, you are the one who bakes
the bappir in the big oven,
Puts in order the piles of hulled grains,

You are the one who waters the malt
set on the ground,
The noble dogs keep away even the potentates,
Ninkasi, you are the one who waters the malt
set on the ground,
The noble dogs keep away even the potentates.

You are the one who soaks the malt in a jar
The waves rise, the waves fall.
Ninkasi, you are the one who soaks
the malt in a jar
The waves rise, the waves fall.

You are the one who spreads the cooked
mash on large reed mats,
Coolness overcomes.
Ninkasi, you are the one who spreads
the cooked mash on large reed mats,
Coolness overcomes.

You are the one who holds with both hands
the great sweet wort,
Brewing [it] with honey and wine
(You the sweet wort to the vessel)
Ninkasi, (...)
(You the sweet wort to the vessel)

The filtering vat, which makes
a pleasant sound,
You place appropriately on [top of]
a large collector vat.
Ninkasi, the filtering vat,
which makes a pleasant sound,
You place appropriately on [top of]
a large collector vat.

When you pour out the filtered beer
of the collector vat,
It is [like] the onrush of
Tigris and Euphrates.
Ninkasi, you are the one who pours out the
filtered beer of the collector vat,
It is [like] the onrush of
Tigris and Euphrates.

If they were adding honey (making braggot you say?), I'll bet $1 they were above your purported "1-2% ABV".

19th Century BC - they're already malting, grinding, mashing, lautering, making braggot - all without WLP001, Star San, and Austin Homebrew Supply free shipping on orders over $100! Gasp!

 

[doctorRobert]

I don't know. What I do know is that barley grows on the plant uncrushed, and until they learned that crusing it made the starches more available, they had no reason to crush it.

And man had tools capable of crushing barley 10,000 years ago. A picture of it was posted. Also you don't have to crush at all. It just makes conversion quicker (like days quicker)- per john palmer. The bigger issue is the mashing itself, not crushing the barley. They also fermented and mashed all at the sametime, most likely. So it was this constant fermenting starch converting barley and wheat water.

Also look up gruit. I think that's how its spelled

 

[bob1852]

I don't know. What I do know is that barley grows on the plant uncrushed, and until they learned that crusing it made the starches more available, they had no reason to crush it.

Other than to make flour in order to make bread.....which is then how they figured out to make beer.....

Have you read anything on the history of beer?

 

[sudsmcgee]

Wow, and you called Revvy a *********?

Glass houses my friend; glass houses....

I've stated that I don't know the answers. I've only asked for legitimate books on the subject. Revvy provided me with none.

I've been reading the links he provided and I haven't had my questions answered yet. I'll keep looking though because I know Revvy knows a lot and I'm sure my own ignorance is my problem.

 

[bob1852]

By the way - Ken Schramm's book "The Compleat Meadmaker" has a great intro chapter on the history of fermented beverages....

 

[Revvy]

And man had tools capable of crushing barley 10,000 years ago. A picture of it was posted.

But doc that picture wasn't in color and shot with a nikon dslr and photographed by ansel adams so therefore it wasn't good enough for our friend.

 

[bob1852]

sudsmcgee - at least tell me you don't think Ben Franklin actually said "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." :fro:

 

[Revvy]

sudsmcgee - at least tell me you don't think Ben Franklin actually said "Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy." :fro:

I love you. And Doc Robert btw. Lol

 

[doctorRobert]

I love you. And Doc Robert btw. Lol

This has been quite fun.

Who we really need is doc brown and his delorean.

 

[bob1852]

This has been quite fun.

Who we really need is doc brown and his delorean.