New bad lot of Nottingham yeast ???

[Revvy]

None of you can decree a yeast bad, until

1) You wait 72 hours

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f39/fermentation-can-take-24-72-hrs-show-visible-signs-43635/, and by visible signs we don't necessarily mean a bubbling airlock.

It IS a sticky at the top of the beginners forum for a reason, afterall.

As already stated in the linked sticky, Fermentation often can take up to three days to start . And be perfectly normal!!! And by visible signs they do NOT mean airlock bubbling.

b) You confirm it with a HYDROMETER READING. AFTER 72 Hours.

Otherwise you are panicking for nothing.......And spreading undue worry/panic for nothing. Just because a yeast behaving how YOU think it should or want it to, doesn't mean there's anything wrong with the yeast.

Even the RECALLED lot of Notty still fermented beer. It just worked slower than other batches. Here's exactly how the old recall played out;

We have done some internal quality checks that have shown that a higher than normal percentage of Nottingham yeast in 11 gram sachet packs from batch #1081140118V (expiration date of Jan. 2011) exhibit slow fermentation characteristics.

While this is not affecting the majority of packages from this batch, as a safeguard we would like to replace sachets of this batch of Nottingham with new inventory from a different batch. If you have any Nottingham yeast with this batch number, please return it by mail to: Lallemand Inc.
Attn: Marie Coppet
6100 Royalmount
Montreal, QC, Canada
H4P 2R2

We will replace each sachet sent along with extra sachets to compensate you for postage costs. We apologize for any inconvenience and thank you for your support. Should you have any questions, please contact our Montreal order desk by e-mail at [email protected] .
Keith Lemcke
Danstar Yeast Sales"

Slow "fermentation characteristics" is STILL not "dead yeast" it's SLOW YEAST. And if you left your beer alone for a month in primary like many of us do, you would never even know anything was wrong.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Well I guess we'll (I'll) see! One reason I use Nottingham for everything but a few beers is because I know it. It behaves consistently, so I can predict my beer -- that's (one of) the point(s)!

So this is different. Maybe better? I am guessing not but, as you say I will find out in a month. Not a thing was different in my process, I did the same thing this time as I did the last 10 brew days. Everything looked the same, smelled the same, took the same time and was at the same temperature. Actually the only difference was that I mashed high for this batch - 158 vs my typical 149-154. Could this be the thing that made this yeast do nothing for 3 days? That seems a bit far fetched but hell what do I know.

That not being the case I would rather pitch something that behaves the same way from batch to batch so I can concentrate on recipe changes to experiment rather than be at the mercy of inconsistent fermentation. I think! Maybe I'll have a better beer this time (that's hard to conceive of since my beer is so bloody good normally - everybody says!!)

Steve

 

[Captain_Bigelow]

I'm assuming everyone who is reporting a problem with this yeast is reporting it to Danstar?!!?? Personally, I've never had a problem with Nottingham yeast. It has always worked great. I'm not totally convinced that there is a problem. You get one or two people reporting a problem and suddenly every Johnny come lately who has an issue with a beer starts claiming that their crappy sanitation/inability to control ferment temps/underpitching are clearly a result of a defective packet of yeast. If there is a problem, let Danstar know. They have been pretty good in the past at taking care of problem batches.

I emailed their customer service a couple of weeks ago when I found I had the previous bad lot. Never got a response.

 

[Rover]

Even the RECALLED lot of Notty still fermented beer. It just worked slower than other batches.



Slow "fermentation characteristics" is STILL not "dead yeast" it's SLOW YEAST. And if you left your beer alone for a month in primary like many of us do, you would never even know anything was wrong.

Thanks Revy for chiming in,

Do you (or anyone else) recall that if the bad lot actually was associated with any off flavors? If not, no big deal I can be patient. From everything I have read, I understand that the faster the better, less chance of wild yeasts to take over before the good stuff does, and less stress on the yeast. I'm so new to this great hobby that I don't even know that if this is true. I've spent hundreds of dollars to control every aspect of the brewing process to make great tasting beer and thanks to the generous people here at the HBT and the suppliers I have been making some really tasty brew

If all I have to do is spend a few extra cents on a pack of yeast to avoid anything unexpected than that was probably the best money I spent on that batch (other than my fermenting chamber).

Again, thanks for your, and everyone elses help!

I'll be waking up at 5:30AM for my first SMaSH in my effort to start understanding individual ingredients, only this time I'll be pitching US-05

 

[Montanaandy]

:None of you can decree a yeast bad, until

1) You wait 72 hours = Done. I actually waited around 120+ hours before I pulled a sample.
2) You confirm it with a HYDROMETER READING. AFTER 72 Hours = Done. Still stuck at 1.014 the same as it was before the Notty.

I don't like to jump on the Chicken Little/Sky Is Falling bandwagon if at all possible but in this instance I am just telling it like it is, as least with respect to my experience. It sounds like there might be a bad batch based on what has been posted but who knows? Does it mean that I won't ever use Notty again - not necessarily. Does it mean that I will lean toward 05 from here on when I need to use a dry yeast - yes, provided the 05 brings the TG down whereas the Notty could not. If the 05 does not do the job then I can't blame the Notty.

I ended up transferring from the 5 gal BB that it was in to another 5 gal BB. The Notty yeast was there on the bottom of the BB. The wort smelled fine - typical Saison (I didn't taste) so I don't believe the Notty harmed anything - it just didn't do anything.

I pitched a pack of 05 on the transfer and it is bubbling occasionally. Hopefully it will take my TG down below 1.010 so I can keg this and be done with it already. Montanaandy

 

[Shooter]

:None of you can decree a yeast bad, until

1) You wait 72 hours = Done. I actually waited around 120+ hours before I pulled a sample.
2) You confirm it with a HYDROMETER READING. AFTER 72 Hours = Done. Still stuck at 1.014 the same as it was before the Notty.

I don't like to jump on the Chicken Little/Sky Is Falling bandwagon if at all possible but in this instance I am just telling it like it is, as least with respect to my experience. It sounds like there might be a bad batch based on what has been posted but who knows? Does it mean that I won't ever use Notty again - not necessarily. Does it mean that I will lean toward 05 from here on when I need to use a dry yeast - yes, provided the 05 brings the TG down whereas the Notty could not. If the 05 does not do the job then I can't blame the Notty.

I ended up transferring from the 5 gal BB that it was in to another 5 gal BB. The Notty yeast was there on the bottom of the BB. The wort smelled fine - typical Saison (I didn't taste) so I don't believe the Notty harmed anything - it just didn't do anything.

I pitched a pack of 05 on the transfer and it is bubbling occasionally. Hopefully it will take my TG down below 1.010 so I can keg this and be done with it already. Montanaandy

Are you talking about using NOTTY as a repitch to finish out a saison?!?! That is VERY different than simply stating Nottingham didn't ferment your beer.

 

[arturo7]

I used this lot on a batch brewed last weekend. No airlock activity, no krausen at all, but after 4 days my gravity was down to 1.012 from an OG of 1.044.

 

[RavenChief]

With all due respect, I just don't think I could ever wait 72 hours just to see if my yeast will get kicking. Normally I see bubling in my airlock within 6-8 hours. If I go past 24 hours without signs of fermentation I will repitch with yeast I know is good. I spend too much time and money brewing a batch to wait 72 hours and get beer that is "off". I have had mostly good luck with Nottingham but lately it has been slow. Bottom line is I am looking for other yeasts to sub for Nottingham. If I use Nottingham again I will be sure to "proof" my yeast before I pitch.

 

[Pivot]

Yeah... you're probably right... it definitely isn't science or poor method that's causing my batches to fail. KARMA GODS STRIKE AGAIN!

Your right on here bud, You are most definitely the problem. I have little sympathy for you when your simply blaming the company, when you just told us the last 3 batches u made were also garbage. it just sounds to me like you dont know what your doing.

and Canada kicks ass. I dont see how you can say service sucks in an entire country just because Danstar didnt give you the service you wanted. what a crock.

 

[Shooter]

With all due respect, I just don't think I could ever wait 72 hours just to see if my yeast will get kicking. Normally I see bubling in my airlock within 6-8 hours. If I go past 24 hours without signs of fermentation I will repitch with yeast I know is good. I spend too much time and money brewing a batch to wait 72 hours and get beer that is "off". I have had mostly good luck with Nottingham but lately it has been slow. Bottom line is I am looking for other yeasts to sub for Nottingham. If I use Nottingham again I will be sure to "proof" my yeast before I pitch.

I would say at least 50% of my batches show no sign of fermentation in the airlock and, since they're in buckets, I have very little way of knowing if they're fermenting. Turns out every single one has fermented just fine. If you don't want to wait, don't, it's your beer, but, that's not necessarily an indication that Danstar has a problem batch. Best of luck with your future brews!

 

[Shooter]

I used this lot on a batch brewed last weekend. No airlock activity, no krausen at all, but after 4 days my gravity was down to 1.012 from an OG of 1.044.

No, SIR, that is NOT possible!

 

[Montanaandy]

Shooter:

Yes, I am talking about using Notty to dry out a Saison. I actually was discussing this/the Notty deal on another thread but somehow ended up on this one.

In any event, while we are talking about 2 different situations (pitching Notty from the start to ferment out versus drying out the Saison in my case) the bottom line is that the yeast did not work/do its job. After a week on the Notty the TG should have at least budged but it didn't. Meanwhile the 05 that I pitched after taking the Saison off of the Notty is working away. Montanaandy

 

[Revvy]

With all due respect, I just don't think I could ever wait 72 hours just to see if my yeast will get kicking. Normally I see bubling in my airlock within 6-8 hours. If I go past 24 hours without signs of fermentation I will repitch with yeast I know is good. I spend too much time and money brewing a batch to wait 72 hours and get beer that is "off". I have had mostly good luck with Nottingham but lately it has been slow. Bottom line is I am looking for other yeasts to sub for Nottingham. If I use Nottingham again I will be sure to "proof" my yeast before I pitch.

With all DUE RESPECT, then how can you declare a yeast dead by not waiting past a window of time that IS PERFECTLY NORMAL? It's called lag time....Or who can you judge the yeast by using something faulty like an airlock to judge fermentation, when it has been proven time and again that many a beer ferments perfectly fine without airlock activity? If you haven't touched your fermenter in that 72 hours, then the beer is perfectly safe. Besides although it may appear to you that no activity is happenning, because you rely on airlocks, there is plenty of activity actually happeening, like the yeast are reproducing.......

The only way to truly know what is going on in your fermenter is with your hydrometer. Like I said here in my blog, which I encourage you to read, Think evaluation before action you sure as HELL wouldn't want a doctor to start cutting on you unless he used the proper diagnostic instuments like x-rays first, right? You wouldn't want him to just take a look in your eyes briefly and say "I'm cutting into your chest first thing in the morning." You would want them to use the right diagnostic tools before the slice and dice, right? You'd cry malpractice, I would hope, if they didn't say they were sending you for an MRI and other things before going in....

Doing anything like pitching more yeast without using the ONE TOOL that can tell you what's REALLY going on, is tantamount to the same thing.

 

[Shooter]

Shooter:

Yes, I am talking about using Notty to dry out a Saison. I actually was discussing this/the Notty deal on another thread but somehow ended up on this one.

In any event, while we are talking about 2 different situations (pitching Notty from the start to ferment out versus drying out the Saison in my case) the bottom line is that the yeast did not work/do its job. After a week on the Notty the TG should have at least budged but it didn't. Meanwhile the 05 that I pitched after taking the Saison off of the Notty is working away. Montanaandy

I have to disagree with your premise. Difficulty with Saison yeasts is a common problem. Pitching another yeast to finish it out is a method that is inconsistent at best. You say you pitched US-05 and, since it is now bubbling that shows that the 05 worked and Notty did not. How do you know that your rousing the fermenter during you check didn't stir up the Notty or the Saison yeast and got one of them working again? You may well be correct, the US-05 is doing its job, but it may also be one of the other yeasts. If the point of this thread is to identify a problematic batch, if that is the case it needs to be identified, then I don't think your situation is an appropriate example of a problem with Notty. I think that's a fair point, but you may not agree.

 

[stevedasleeve]

Everyone seems to be getting all hot under the collar about this stuff.

Hey man it's a company, selling yeast, the yeast is acting different, we (I) are experiencing different behavior, we (I) are posting experiential information, others (you) are getting all pissed off because we are not reading and .. I don't know... adhering/having faith/respecting the "72 hours" supposition? Should there be some loyalty to this company because...?

I say chill out. We (I) are just sayin!

This packet of yeast is *not* acting the same as any other packet (of Nottingham yeast I have ever used.) and we (I) are likely to stop using it because we can (might) no longer be able to predict the result. Its the yeast that makes the beer right?!

xxx and hugs
Steve da sleeve

 

[Montanaandy]

Shooter - the only Saison yeast that I have used are Wyeast 3272 and 3711. Wyeast 3724 is notorious for sticking around 1.020 when you use it prior to washing. Once you have washed it it works much more quickly and efficiently. The Saison in question is one in which I used Wyeast 3724 1st generation with a 2000ml starter.

Not sure where you base your statement that "pitching another yeast to finish it out is a method that is inconsistent at best." I have used Notty on 1st generation 3724 successfully in the past because of the aforementioned problem. By way of comparison, I have not had to use Notty when using Wyeast 3711 because that is a much different Saison yeast from 3724 and I normally reach TG after 2 weeks.

My assessment on the Notty that I recently used which I believe was dated 12/11 is based on a comparison of my previous experience using Notty to dry out Saison which was successful and which exhibited the characteristics of a yeast that is working versus my recent experience using Notty on this batch of Saison in which there was no activity at all after pitching the hydrated Notty - nothing - period. I checked the hydro sample and it did not change at all after roughly 1 week. Same recipe, same sticking point for 1st generation 3724 yeast yet vastly different results.

Frankly, I could care less whether you or anyone else agrees with my findings or not. That is not the point of my post. I am just posting to let others know that I too have had problems with what I believe to be the particular batch of Notty that others have reported problems with and that they are not imagining that there is/might be a problem with a particular lot of this yeast. Montanaandy

 

[Shooter]

Everyone seems to be getting all hot under the collar about this stuff.

Hey man it's a company, selling yeast, the yeast is acting different, we (I) are experiencing different behavior, we (I) are posting experiential information, others (you) are getting all pissed off because we are not reading and .. I don't know... adhering/having faith/respecting the "72 hours" supposition? Should there be some loyalty to this company because...?

I say chill out. We (I) are just sayin!

This packet of yeast is *not* acting the same as any other packet (of Nottingham yeast I have ever used.) and we (I) are likely to stop using it because we can (might) no longer be able to predict the result. Its the yeast that makes the beer right?!

xxx and hugs
Steve da sleeve

Nobody is saying there absolutely isn't a problem. People are suggesting that there are many factors to be considered. It is important to keep these things in mind before jumping to any conclusions. I love how any more you bring up anything for consideration and suddenly everone's getting hot under the collar!

 

[bsdx]

Anyone tried WLP039 Nottingham? Supposed to be the same yeast but liquid form. Yeah it wouldn't be as cheap, but since its liquid you could make a starter first... Just wondering. I'll probably pick up a vial next time I visit LHBS.

 

[Shooter]

Frankly, I could care less whether you or anyone else agrees with my findings or not. That is not the point of my post. I am just posting to let others know that I too have had problems with what I believe to be the particular batch of Notty that others have reported problems with and that they are not imagining that there is/might be a problem with a particular lot of this yeast. Montanaandy

That's fine. I stand by my belief that repitching a yeast on a partially fermented batch may or may not result in a drop in FG. I'm really not trying to be contrary here just for the sake of it. I too would like to know if there is a problem with Notty, as I sometimes use the yeast as well. I feel that your particular situation is somewhat different than the ordinary fresh wort scenario. However, it appears that bringing up any possible opposing positions will not be tolerated in this thread so I'm out for now.

 

[lalnx]

Well it seems I have this slow start yeast myself. The longest I have ever had a beer go before the airlock saw pressure was 48 hrs, and they have all at least bubbled some. Well this batch of nottingham (1080961099V exp. 12 2011) hadn't pressurized the airlock yet at 72 hrs, so I got a little worried. I peeled back the lid, and there was a shallow layer of froth on there and a nasty stench. I closed it up and went crap, "do I have some sort of infuction or what". I've used notty plenty, and don't ever remember that odor. Being the optomist that I am, I closed it up to let it ride. Now 5 days into this, it has finally lifted the airlock, but I haven't caught it bubbling. decided to check on the odor again, and it has now gone to "roast beefy".

Has anyone come up with any nasty flavors from this batch? I plan on letting this one go longer in the primary so if there are any off flavor's, hopefully it will clean itself up. BTW I have been fermenting this one at 70, to get the more fruity esters that notty can give on the upper end. That being said, I hope I don't end up over the top due to this being a "week" or "stressed" yeast.

 

[Montanaandy]

Has anyone come up with any nasty flavors from this batch? I plan on letting this one go longer in the primary so if there are any off flavor's, hopefully it will clean itself up. BTW I have been fermenting this one at 70, to get the more fruity esters that notty can give on the upper end. That being said, I hope I don't end up over the top due to this being a "week" or "stressed" yeast.

Didn't notice any nasty smells (smelled fine) and I didn't taste the sample before I pulled the wort off of the Notty after around 6 days or so. The Notty which at the bottom of the BB looked fine/normal and did not have any off odors. It basically sat on the bottom of the BB for 6 days and did absolutely nothing.

I pitched 05 after I transferred the wort into another 5 gal BB. Showed signs of activity shortly after picthcing. I rouse the BB once a day with the tennis ball underneath and the 05 starts churning like mad for a while and then subsides and then there is slow but steady activity in the airlock. Confident that the 05 will get my TG down into the single digits when I take a gravity reading this weekend. I know that my situation is different (drying out a Saison) but the fact of the matter is that the questionable Notty production lot did not work at all whereas the 05 did. Just a bad batch of Notty as far as I am concerned.

 

[lalnx]

the s-05 should dry you out, I previously did a SNPA clone, that crashed down to 1.002.... That is why I went back to try the notty in this last brew, didn't want it so dry.
Good luck.

 

[rodney]

Not sure if I'm having this problem or not, but my fermentation is not showing the normal signs. Will do a hydrometer reading tomorrow AM to see if I need to be concerned.

 

[rodney]

Okay, it is fermenting, but very slowly. Since I am doing a big beer anyway (chocolate coffee stout, 1.076og) I decided to pitch another packet, since I thought I might have to anyway. Went with 05 this time.

 

[bkov]

maybe someone can email them a link to this thread and see if they have any response

 

[mullenite]

Just pitched another packet of this batch and the yeast is already multiplying. Fermentation should start in the next couple hours based on what I'm seeing.

 

[dwarven_stout]

Just used notty, same batch #, no problems. I'm going to go ahead and echo Shooter here:

I'm not totally convinced that there is a problem. You get one or two people reporting a problem and suddenly every Johnny come lately who has an issue with a beer starts claiming that their crappy sanitation/inability to control ferment temps/underpitching are clearly a result of a defective packet of yeast.

 

[rodney]

Well, 3 hours after pitching the 05, I am experiencing normal activity. That does not appear to be a coincidence to me, though I realize that I cannot prove that.

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe the Notty works, but not as well as it ought to. That's possible, isn't it?

 

[dwarven_stout]

Well, 3 hours after pitching the 05, I am experiencing normal activity. That does not appear to be a coincidence to me, though I realize that I cannot prove that.

Maybe the truth is somewhere in the middle. Maybe the Notty works, but not as well as it ought to. That's possible, isn't it?

That is possible, and that's basically what happened last year when notty was acting up. That said, 3 hours is not usually enough lag time for a yeast to start up anyway. It's just as likely that the notty started up and you attributed it to the 05.

 

[rodney]

Yeah, I had considered that, and it's certainly possible.