New 10 Gallon Herms! Pics!

[illin8]

Pol's right, its all about pressure really...a one foot change in water height (from inlet to outlet) will result in 0.433 psi change. I don't think the pump output gets compensated by the pressure coming at its inlet, so it will have a hard time pushing that water up 10' because it has 4.33 psi pushing down directly on it. It might help it a little, but I'd doubt it...

The best scenario is to keep the pump just under the outlets of the system to get the least amount of head pressure. Fluid will always flow to the lowest point, it doesn't matter if it's 6" or 60" below (unless you're relying on a siphon).

 

[msheraw]

Pol, man, I'm glad I found something to disagree with you on again. I started to think we had a bromance going on.

Let's say the pump is good for 10' max head. If you had two tanks, both level with each other at 10' off the ground and mounted the pump on the ground, the pump does not see any head at all. The weight of the water in the inlet hose equalizes to the weight of the water in the outlet hose and it nulls. Now, once you run out of water in the inlet, it's another story. I dont' know, maybe I'm wrong.

We're never talking about more than a couple feet anyway.

If I have to agree I'll say that QD's on hoses rule, hard plumbing drools.

Hard plumbing drools if you like spilling wort everywhere. I did the QD thing and I am looking forward to hard plumbing.

But thanks for the input on the keg polishing. I am doing that too. I have about 15 projects going at once.

 

[The Pol]

Pol - if you're around this weekend I am gonna drop by and pick up my stir motor!

Wife will be here, I will be out on a 4 day trip.

 

[The Pol]

Pol, man, I'm glad I found something to disagree with you on again. I started to think we had a bromance going on.

Let's say the pump is good for 10' max head. If you had two tanks, both level with each other at 10' off the ground and mounted the pump on the ground, the pump does not see any head at all. The weight of the water in the inlet hose equalizes to the weight of the water in the outlet hose and it nulls. Now, once you run out of water in the inlet, it's another story. I dont' know, maybe I'm wrong.

We're never talking about more than a couple feet anyway.

If I have to agree I'll say that QD's on hoses rule, hard plumbing drools.

Interesting Bobby... I know when my pump WAS mounted at the bottom of my rig, the flow rate was a lot less. That is all I know from actually doing it.

 

[brewjunky]

You would get a more accurate reading by using A PID controller and installing your temp sensor on the output of the herms coil.

Thats is what my system is using and i'm dead on.

Also it looks like you are using a 120 volt heater. How long does this take you to get to your mash in temp? I have sanke kegs and I'm using 240 volt 3300 watt element and it takes me almost 1.5 hours to get 13 gallons of sparge water to 154 from 50 degrees.

all of my Kegs are insulated as well. I recently just upgraded to a 4500 watt 240 volt element in my HLT im also using a 4500 in my boil kettle hoping it will make my ramp ups quicker.

 

[The Pol]

You would get a more accurate reading by using A PID controller and installing your temp sensor on the output of the herms coil.

Thats is what my system is using and i'm dead on.

Also it looks like you are using a 120 volt heater. How long does this take you to get to your mash in temp? I have sanke kegs and I'm using 240 volt 3300 watt element and it takes me almost 1.5 hours to get 13 gallons of sparge water to 154 from 50 degrees.

all of my Kegs are insulated as well. I recently just upgraded to a 4500 watt 240 volt element in my HLT im also using a 4500 in my boil kettle hoping it will make my ramp ups quicker.

Well I use the HLT to heat my strike water too, I placed the temp probe in the HLT because it was a little easier and it allowed me to more effectively use the HLT for things other than JUST the HERMS recirc. The JCA419 isnt as intelligent as a PID, but for a HERMS that is simply recirculating wort that is ALREADY at the correct mash temp, IMHO a PID is overkill.

My system is dead on, but it took about 30 minutes during my first brew to determine the 3F differential between the HLT temp and desired mash temp. Now I can simly set the differential in the JC controller and set my desired temp. I have a digital thermomter to verify my mash temp is correct, and it is always within .5F or so.

I brew 5 gallon brews, I can heat my water from 60F to 170F in 100 minutes. This is 9.5 gallons in the HLT, since the coil takes up exactly .5 gallons of volume in the vessel.

This being said, I have begun heating my strike water the night prior, so that it is ready to go in a matter of minutes the next morning if I am brewing early. If I am NOT brewing early, I just heat it while I am doing my other work around the house.

My kettle has a 5500W element in it and it seems to work really well for boiling. But the 1500W in the HLT works fine for me, and it was added before I ever intended to go ALL electric and have the 240VAC capability on my rig. I cover that in my other HERMS build thread.

 

[brewjunky]

Yeah with my system I am simply add say 6-7 gallons on a 10 gallon batch for my mash water in the mash tun then I fill my HLT that also houses my coil for herms to the top close to 12 gallons or so what ever is takes to totally cover my herms coil.

then I start my pump and set my temp to what ever I want my mash temp to be and wait.

As the HLT heats up to my desired temp the water in that mash tun is pumped thru the coil and also heats up. Since I have the temp probe on the out put of my herms coil it keeps the temp in my Mash tun at what ever I set it to.

Once I get to my desired temp and shut the pump off and dough in then turn the pump back on and leave it for 60min.

I have only been doing batch sparges because I only have one pump.

My system is a single tier system. I guess I could put the Boil kettle on the floor and use gravity to do a fly sparge but it seems like a bit of a pain.

I too use my water in the HLT for sparging. I just pump some water in so its over the grain bed a little then give it a stir and pump into the kettle I'll do this a few time until I get the desire amount of wort that I need. Im not big on calculating exact amounts to sparge with. Some guys on here do it but to me it makes no difference.

I think next on my rig im going to implement 2 pumps so I can try fly sparging.

I have 2 240 volt march pumps that I may tie into my rig. hook too switches up to my control panel and tie into the power. I got them on ebay for like 25 dollars for the 2 of them. I do not know what they were used for so I may just run some hot PBW or oyclean thru them before use.

What type of tubing are you using on your rig? I thought it looked like 1/2 braided beverage tubing. That is what I have been using but I have been having problems with kinks. I want to buy some silicone tubing one of these days.

 

[The Pol]

You are looking at an old thread here.

My system got an elecrtric boil kettle upgrade, control panel, silicone hoses, sight gauges on the HLT and MLT etc. this past winter. I wasw tired of the stiff braided hoses, and I wanted to have sight gauges to accurately measure water when I make transfers from my HLT to my MLT.

 

[flananuts]

I'm close to brewing in my single tier and I've not been able to find an answer to this question. It may be easier than I'm thinking about it(slow on the uptick today). So I'm using HERMS to keep temp in a three keg single tier. Once it's time to pump the 1st running into the bk and sparge, so I continue to cycle with the HERMS and for how long? Or do I just add the sparge to the current wort and continue to cycle? Orrr can I just dough in with all the water needed and cycle???? My head hurts, please help

 

[illin8]

The HERMS circulation is for the mash only up until you get your 1st runnings. After that just use the HLT water w/out circulating. This is for batch sparging.

 

[flananuts]

Thanks Illin8 I appreciate the response.

 

[scoots]

Doing the wiring on this bad boy tonight/Tuesday. Where does the ground to the HLT element connect? Or did you only use a 2 wire cord?

Thanks,
Scott

 

[The Pol]

Doing the wiring on this bad boy tonight/Tuesday. Where does the ground to the HLT element connect? Or did you only use a 2 wire cord?

Thanks,
Scott

3 wires, grounded to the steel brew stand. EVERYTHING should be grounded

 

[scoots]

That is what I thought. Thanks again.

 

[jpold]

Thanks for this thread. I putting my own system together, and although my system isn't exactly like yours, I'm using LOTS of your ideas. I ordered the stirring motor you recommend from McMaster-Carr. I'm assuming you grounded it, but I can't tell from your pictures where you attached the ground wire. Can I just attach a ground wire to one of the screws on the housing?

Thanks again for sharing all this info!

 

[BrewBeemer]

1/2" tubing is key, I agree. the fewer restrictions or hard corners the better it will flow. For those of you think that any bigger hose might be better stick with the 1/2". bigger hose although will flow more down hill or on a straight can cause problems when pumping uphill due to the added head weight

Can you please explain?
I recall a column of fresh water a foot tall at .432 psi or .434 psi per /ft if it's sea water. Same pressure be it a 60" diameter pipe or 1/16" pipe same pressure per / ft. Now each fitting plus changing directions at each fitting adds more restrictions to the flow, also this restriction increases when the GPM thru the hose and fittings are increased.

 

[dantodd]

Can you please explain?
I recall a column of fresh water a foot tall at .432 psi or .434 psi per /ft if it's sea water. Same pressure be it a 60" diameter pipe or 1/16" pipe same pressure per / ft.

psi = per square inch.

There are more square inches in a 3/4" tubing of a given length than a 1/2" tubing of the same length.

area of a circle is pi*r^2

Using this formula we get 9.42 square inches per foot of 1/2" tubing.
While a 3/4" tube has 21 square inches per foot.

So, using your figure of .432 psi/foot of fresh water it will take
.432*9.42 foot pounds to push fresh water up 1' of 1/2" tubing: or 4.1 ft-lb
and
.432*21 foot pounds to push fresh water up 1' of 3/4" tubing: 9.1 ft.lb

 

[beerocd]

3 wires, grounded to the steel brew stand. EVERYTHING should be grounded

For the guys who have 4 casters on their rigs that won't work - right? I'm in the process of putting together something with the industrial(food service?) looking chrome carts that can hold up to 800lbs each. I think due to the casters I need to hang a copper braid to contact the ground. Never saw anyone mention doing anything like this - maybe it's just common sense for the guys building the super-rigs; Or maybe I just totally don't know a lick about electricity.

-OCD

 

[BrewBeemer]

psi = per square inch.

There are more square inches in a 3/4" tubing of a given length than a 1/2" tubing of the same length.

area of a circle is pi*r^2

Using this formula we get 9.42 square inches per foot of 1/2" tubing.
While a 3/4" tube has 21 square inches per foot.

So, using your figure of .432 psi/foot of fresh water it will take
.432*9.42 foot pounds to push fresh water up 1' of 1/2" tubing: or 4.1 ft-lb
and
.432*21 foot pounds to push fresh water up 1' of 3/4" tubing: 9.1 ft.lb

That would make Hoover dam at 280' deep and 800' long pressing Billions of pounds per square inch on the concrete dams face that would be way beyond the laws of physics and of any man made steel com stock run. A 350K metric ton ship would then only need to float on 1/64" of water compared to the size of the Pacific ocean then.

Area does not change pressure only the height in head space does.

Save your math for circle area and just square the diameter then times .7854 for the area.

 

[humann_brewing]

Do you have any pics of the inside of your HLT? I need to build this.

 

[The Pol]

Do you have any pics of the inside of your HLT? I need to build this.

When I get a chance, I will have to dig it up...

I would also hit up Brrman, we collaborated on how to successfully install the element in his cooler.

Look in my gallery, I have have a photo in there... I will look when I get a moment.

Here it is... obviously before I added the sight gauge. But, it is pretty simple.

The key is that you MUST reinforce the bottom of the cooler (inner shell) This has been done several ways, but bottom line is that you have to reinforce the area around the hole that you drill with about 1/8" (thick) of material (hard plastic) since the inner shell likes to warp and move when the temps rise in the HLT. If you do this, it wont leak a lick. This has been covered here and I think Brrman was the last to do this build.

 

[humann_brewing]

I found this:

how are you sealing everything?

Also, do you have a way of measuring how much liquid is transfered between your HLT and Mash/tun?

Edit: oh you beat me to it.

 

[The Pol]

You can use a silicone O-ring to seal the element (outside the cooler) and I would recommend getting a 1" straight thread SS nut from BargainFittings.com for tightening it (inside).

I have sight gauges on my HLT and MLT.

 

[The Pol]

Here are some photos:

Keggle Fittings:

Keggle Recirc. Indside:

 

[JayInJersey]

To The Pol,

Simply amazing system.
I'd been debating and planning different setups...Gas vs Electric...cooler vs pot...and I'd nearly resigned myself to having to buy a complete system as I just didn't have the wherewithal to pull off rigging LP without blowing myself up and the mysteries of electricity end with "I plugged it in, now what?"

Then I find this tread and think "I CAN DO THAT!"

Now I don't know if I can...but I sure know I will try.

So to you KUDOS!

Now on to my questions:
(And please excuse some of them if they seem dumb...but this electricity thing must trip a reason breaker in my noggin)

1) I found the picture of the HLT lid in your gallery and from what I saw, I didn't see the thermowell...has it been relocated or was it just not in for the picture? I'm assuming (if you didn't move it) it runs to somewhere close around mid-coil?

2) On my lunch break I ran out to HD and grabbed me a 1" threaded PVC coupler and 2000w element and honestly was expecting a bigger thing ("That's what she said"...there ruined it for everyone). Did I get the wrong gadget or are they really THAT small? The thing is only like 7" tall! Also none of them said they were water safe...but the whole section was for Water Heater elements...Item link...should I be concerned?

3) Plugging this stuff in...can I run all three things (pump, HE, stirrer) from the same outlet? Like off a power strip? [at least until I get an e-BK & controller like yours...which is a further future project]
How did you do it before you got the box?

4) On your MLT, you say you got the false bottom from Northern Brewer...assuming the 12" one ...it says it has a 3/8" hose barb on it...did you change to 1/2" or keep it as is?


All I can think of right now...but I'm sure I'll come up with more as I get building.

And if I didn't say it before...this is seriously killer :rockin:

 

[The Pol]

To The Pol,

Simply amazing system.
I'd been debating and planning different setups...Gas vs Electric...cooler vs pot...and I'd nearly resigned myself to having to buy a complete system as I just didn't have the wherewithal to pull off rigging LP without blowing myself up and the mysteries of electricity end with "I plugged it in, now what?"

Then I find this tread and think "I CAN DO THAT!"

Now I don't know if I can...but I sure know I will try.

So to you KUDOS!

Now on to my questions:
(And please excuse some of them if they seem dumb...but this electricity thing must trip a reason breaker in my noggin)

1) I found the picture of the HLT lid in your gallery and from what I saw, I didn't see the thermowell...has it been relocated or was it just not in for the picture? I'm assuming (if you didn't move it) it runs to somewhere close around mid-coil?

The thermowell is a SS tube that the A419 temp probe slides down into. It fits through a hole in the center of the lid, in the center of the HLT and coil.

2) On my lunch break I ran out to HD and grabbed me a 1" threaded PVC coupler and 2000w element and honestly was expecting a bigger thing ("That's what she said"...there ruined it for everyone). Did I get the wrong gadget or are they really THAT small? The thing is only like 7" tall! Also none of them said they were water safe...but the whole section was for Water Heater elements...Item link...should I be concerned?

NO, they ARE that small, which is nice, because then you do not need to maintain a large volume in the HLT to keep the element submerged. Now, realize that you cannot control that element with an A419, you will need a PID and SSR since it is pushing 17A, the A419's max is 16A.

3) Plugging this stuff in...can I run all three things (pump, HE, stirrer) from the same outlet? Like off a power strip? [at least until I get an e-BK & controller like yours...which is a further future project]
How did you do it before you got the box?

Well, if it is a 20A circuit, yes. 17A for the element, <1A for the stirrer and 1.8A for the pump. Now, that is REALLY pushing a 20A circuit and you will want to make sure your power cord can handle 20A. Now this is over the 80% load rule, but that is for continuous loads and yours will not be continuous as the element will cycle on and off. But, you are really pushing it.

4) On your MLT, you say you got the false bottom from Northern Brewer...assuming the 12" one ...it says it has a 3/8" hose barb on it...did you change to 1/2" or keep it as is?


Kept it as is... all my other plumbing is 1/2" though. I cannot fathom a time that the flow restriction there would be an issue.


All I can think of right now...but I'm sure I'll come up with more as I get building.

And if I didn't say it before...this is seriously killer :rockin:

Thanks, hope this answers some questions...

 

[JayInJersey]

Thanks for letting me know about the 2000w element...didn't realize it was 20a (package doesn't say anything about amps...but hey HD sold it for < $10 same price as the 1500w btw) ... I'll grab a 1500w one and save this one for a future heat stick or brew kettle.

-Jay

 

[The Pol]

Thanks for letting me know about the 2000w element...didn't realize it was 20a (package doesn't say anything about amps...but hey HD sold it for < $10 same price as the 1500w btw) ... I'll grab a 1500w one and save this one for a future heat stick or brew kettle.

-Jay

Most things wont list amps... but take wattage/volts= AMPS

1500W/120volts = 12.5 AMPS

and so on.

You should catch one of my brewcasts or see some of my videos on the E HERMS...

 

[JayInJersey]

They recorded somewhere?

I'd love to watch it happen captain!

 

[The Pol]

Here are a couple vids from yesterday...

[ame]http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2488590[/ame]
[ame]http://www.ustream.tv/recorded/2489302[/ame]

Here are my Youtube "build" videos...

http://iam.homebrewtalk.com/videos.php?u=7954&Video_ID=119#video119
http://iam.homebrewtalk.com/videos.php?u=7954&Video_ID=120#video120