Never wash your yeast again!!!!

[geckholm]

Using White Labs, when I start with a new batch of yeast, I use a sanitized eyedropper to remove some from the White Labs vial and put it into some small vials of salt water solution for storage in the refrigerator. Then step up some starters when I use them. I used to use mason jars, but this way takes up much less room in the fridge.

 

[Remmy]

Never had a problem using harvested yeast. I try to use it as fast as possible after the harvest. All you need is a little bit of time and some DME to create a starter. Simple. I can turn a $7 pack of Wyeast, after it's done fermenting beer #1, into 5-6 additional portions for future beers. I'm saving $35-42.

I tend to only harvest yeast that is more of a general-use yeast. For example, 1056 or 1098. Yeast I will use quite frequently on American and English-style beers (IPAs, Stouts, etc.).

 

[ajandrs]

I “washed” a yeast cake once and will not do it again. Too lengthy and tedious of a process for me personally. I’ve also done the OP’s suggestion of splitting off a starter to store for a later batch (that yeast is still sitting in the fridge waiting to be used. Splitting off the starter was extremely easy and simple, and I would do that ANY day over washing a spent yeast cake. However it sounds like most of you are simply saving your yeast cake without any kind of “washing” involved … just swirl the yeast cake and pour into jars and straight into the fridge.

So I’ve read through all these posts and no one has really talked about trub. Is it safe to assume that none of you are concerned at all with the presence of trub in your stored yeast jars? Are you whirlpooling post boil to eliminate most trub or does it just simply not hurt the yeast throughout storage? I bag my hops in the boil so that they don’t get into my plate chiller so I’m just dealing with hot/cold break in my trub. If all I truly need to do is swirl the yeast cake and dump it into quart sized mason jars then I am ALL for that kind of simplicity.

Assuming that’s the way I go moving forward, is 1 quart of cake slurry (decanted) appropriate for a 5 gallon batch with a 1.050 – 1.060 OG or is that too much yeast? Is there a general rule of thumb for pitch rates? I use Mr Malty for my starters but when you’re dealing with a yeast cake I don’t see how you can be very accurate without the proper lab equipment. On top of all that, if I’m storing the yeast for longer than a month I’m going to want to make a starter with it just to make sure it’s still viable and warmed up for a new batch, so then you’re at 1 quart + your starter amount … how is it possible to know proper pitch amounts at this point, or is it just an semi-edumacated guess?

 

[mtnagel]

No you don't have to worry about the trub or hop material. You have mostly yeast in there.

As for estimating counts, I wrote about how I do it here. Yes, they are educated guesses basically.

 

[fearwig]

I “washed” a yeast cake once and will not do it again. Too lengthy and tedious of a process for me personally. I’ve also done the OP’s suggestion of splitting off a starter to store for a later batch (that yeast is still sitting in the fridge waiting to be used. Splitting off the starter was extremely easy and simple, and I would do that ANY day over washing a spent yeast cake. However it sounds like most of you are simply saving your yeast cake without any kind of “washing” involved … just swirl the yeast cake and pour into jars and straight into the fridge.

So I’ve read through all these posts and no one has really talked about trub. Is it safe to assume that none of you are concerned at all with the presence of trub in your stored yeast jars? Are you whirlpooling post boil to eliminate most trub or does it just simply not hurt the yeast throughout storage? I bag my hops in the boil so that they don’t get into my plate chiller so I’m just dealing with hot/cold break in my trub. If all I truly need to do is swirl the yeast cake and dump it into quart sized mason jars then I am ALL for that kind of simplicity.

Assuming that’s the way I go moving forward, is 1 quart of cake slurry (decanted) appropriate for a 5 gallon batch with a 1.050 – 1.060 OG or is that too much yeast? Is there a general rule of thumb for pitch rates? I use Mr Malty for my starters but when you’re dealing with a yeast cake I don’t see how you can be very accurate without the proper lab equipment. On top of all that, if I’m storing the yeast for longer than a month I’m going to want to make a starter with it just to make sure it’s still viable and warmed up for a new batch, so then you’re at 1 quart + your starter amount … how is it possible to know proper pitch amounts at this point, or is it just an semi-edumacated guess?

In my mind it's very hard to know how much slurry you have until it has settled in the fridge (2-4 days maybe), unless you collect the "whole cake", roughly speaking, and then think about what proportion of the cake you are using. The way I pour of the cake, a quart would be almost the whole thing, and I'd guess that's about twice as much as you need for the beer you describe. It's all about how much liquid you're involving, and that's all about flocculation, temperature, gelatin use, racking technique...

And literally everything to do with yeast is a semi-educated guess, MrMalty just tries to put some data behind it. Don't take anything you see there too literally, there are so many iffy variables that you're really just trying to make sure you're in the right range. Being off by 50% in either direction is not a disaster, but the best way to make sure you're in that range is to shoot for the middle.

 

[mtnagel]

Seems like a good place to ask because there is so much activity around this topic.

I have harvested slurry that would be 17 days from when I harvested it when I brew next week. I've heard that you should use it with in 2 weeks (from the Yeast book and here). I'm thinking I have 2 choices:

1) pitch the appropriate amount as is at 17 days from harvesting.
2) make a starter with a portion of it to wake up the yeast before pitching which will dilute out some of the dead yeast cells and trub that is in there now.

Given those choices, which would you do?

 

[bannerj]

No you don't have to worry about the trub or hop material. You have mostly yeast in there.

As for estimating counts, I wrote about how I do it here. Yes, they are educated guesses basically.

From what I understand this would be just like pitching onto a yeast cake with the same variables...that you want to make sure you are brewing a similar beer or a more intense beer? Is that right?

 

[mtnagel]

That's not a bad idea, but in my experience you are pitching such a small amount into a large amount that it doesn't matter that much. The yeast I was talking about was from a oatmeal stout and I'm going to an IPA. And before that I did a black IPA to an oatmeal stout. Of course this is pitching like a cup of yeast cake, not the entire cake.

The one thing I avoid is reusing yeast cake from a higher gravity beer (>1.070).

That's why harvesting from a starter is ideal. You don't have to worry about any of this but when you can reuse the yeast cake, you can't beat the simplicity of it.

 

[masonsjax]

I recently read of another idea that sounds reasonable to me. When you use a vial of yeast, instead of rinsing and discarding the vial, leave the residual yeast in there and use some of your starter to fill the vial back up. Leave it upright with the lid lightly capped somewhere warm. When that finishes fermenting you'll have what looks like a brand new yeast vial ready to pitch into a starter for next time.

 

[masonsjax]

IME the color of previous beers doesn't noticeably change the next beer. I've done pale ales and wheat beers after stouts without issue. I've even done simple ales after a sour mashed beer that came out just as expected. Not something I'd be concerned about.

 

[mtnagel]

I recently read of another idea that sounds reasonable to me. When you use a vial of yeast, instead of rinsing and discarding the vial, leave the residual yeast in there and use some of your starter to fill the vial back up. Leave it upright with the lid lightly capped somewhere warm. When that finishes fermenting you'll have what looks like a brand new yeast vial ready to pitch into a starter for next time.

Sure that could work, but you're probably talking about a very small amount of yeast remaining. When I harvest from a starter, I purposely grow up about 100 billion extra cells (from yeast calculators) so that the amount remaining is about what's in a vial of yeast. It's as if I never used the yeast I just bought.

 

[WileECoyote]

The amount of money that can be saved is just ridiculous.

No its not, its GREAT ! lol !

Cheers

 

[tj218]

I like the idea in theory, but it seems I don't brew enough to take advantage of it. I have two slurries in the fridge, one harvested from Dec. and one from early Jan. When I went to make my last batch two weeks ago, I checked on mrmalty and it looked like I was going to have to build it up with multiple starters. So I just said forget this, and pitched some Nottingham.

Do you guys who re-use brew frequently? Any tips on preserving for a couple months without needing multiple starters?

 

[mtnagel]

I have been trying to brew more often which for me means every 3-5 weeks which works well for this assuming you are using the same yeast. I purposely planned 5 batches in a row that used English yeast so I've just been reusing for each batch.

 

[lotusworker]

Yeah..people have been propagating yeast for 1000s of years. It is really not as complicated. I know that a strain can mutate, get infected, etc, but you really just need to use your best judgement on what you save. Most of huge time he ones that are bad will be pretty apparent. Er ya
K about 4 th generation and all this stuff, but really there is no 1 st generation. It had to come somewhere before that.

 

[fearwig]

I like the idea in theory, but it seems I don't brew enough to take advantage of it. I have two slurries in the fridge, one harvested from Dec. and one from early Jan. When I went to make my last batch two weeks ago, I checked on mrmalty and it looked like I was going to have to build it up with multiple starters. So I just said forget this, and pitched some Nottingham.

Do you guys who re-use brew frequently? Any tips on preserving for a couple months without needing multiple starters?

There's almost nothing that needs multiple starters. I mean unless you're building up from dregs you're really fine with 2qts on an ale, as long as you have a good portion of a cake left. I haven't run the numbers on this but I'm confident the underpitch, if any, is minimal. Maybe less than the calculator suggests.

I have seriously underpitched before and know what it tastes like, and on the other hand I have pitched yeast that MrMalty judged "too old" (10%ish). When adjusting pitch rates I just said F it and calculated like it was really 30-40%, and it came out about as I expected.

 

[WileECoyote]

I eyeball the amount of slurry I leave when dumping some out. For an average gravity beer, I leave maybe a pint if it's mostly yeast, probably close to a quart if there's a lot of hop material in there.

Thanks

Cheers

 

[Calder]

There's almost nothing that needs multiple starters. I mean unless you're building up from dregs you're really fine with 2qts on an ale, as long as you have a good portion of a cake left. I haven't run the numbers on this but I'm confident the underpitch, if any, is minimal. Maybe less than the calculator suggests.

I have seriously underpitched before and know what it tastes like, and on the other hand I have pitched yeast that MrMalty judged "too old" (10%ish). When adjusting pitch rates I just said F it and calculated like it was really 30-40%, and it came out about as I expected.

Yeast viability numbers in Mr. Malty are way too conservative. I have zero faith in it for slurry calculations. I have used slurry after a few months and not had any issues.

 

[mtnagel]

Pitched it as is or made a starter with it?

The Yeast book says not to reuse it after 2 weeks. I was going 17 days between harvesting yeast cake and pitching, so I made a starter.

 

[bmilford]

I have two yeasts going right now one is an Irish ale that came out of a vial that I used in 2009, just dumped it an put that cap back on and put it in the fridge. I made a 1 liter starter and dumped a little into the vial, capped it, shook it, and dumped it back into the starter. It took a while to start but it did ferment the starter, I tasted the starter and it tasted OK. I pitched the starter into about 1 1/2 gallons of wort, and it started fermenting right away, the beer from that is in a keg and almost carbed, it is pretty tasty now. I have used that yeast cake and that beer is fermenting well too.

 

[fearwig]

Pitched it as is or made a starter with it?

The Yeast book says not to reuse it after 2 weeks. I was going 17 days between harvesting yeast cake and pitching, so I made a starter.

Pitched as-is if there's enough in the jar. If it's 2-3 months old I use about twice as much, which is usually the whole jar anyway. Certainly not ten times as much. Jamil's reputation as ordained yeast expert SOMETIMES leads him to be overcautious in his recommendations, to protect that reputation I suppose. Can't blame him there, I still listen to him, I just take warnings like that with salt.

 

[PackerfaninSanDiego]

Pitched it as is or made a starter with it?

The Yeast book says not to reuse it after 2 weeks. I was going 17 days between harvesting yeast cake and pitching, so I made a starter.

I guess all those refrigerated White Lab's liquid yeasts in the LHBS,are no good too.

 

[fearwig]

I guess all those refrigerated White Lab's liquid yeasts in the LHBS,are no good too.

Right? Which reminds me, there's one other reason frugality might not be urged in a book written by a yeast mogul (if that's a thing) and a guy who pays bills with sponsorships from homebrew and yeast suppliers. I mean I don't think that's sinister at all, but you have to consider your sources. It's never bad advice to only use fresh vials, in fact it's safe advice. It's just not the best advice for everyone.

 

[mtnagel]

I guess all those refrigerated White Lab's liquid yeasts in the LHBS,are no good too.

Obviously not. The commercial liquid yeast is in a much cleaner medium though.

The Yeast book says 50% viability after 4 weeks, which is exactly what the Mr. Malty calculator says.

 

[Terek]

Obviously not. The commercial liquid yeast is in a much cleaner medium though.

The Yeast book says 50% viability after 4 weeks, which is exactly what the Mr. Malty calculator says.

I have used washed yeast over a year later. I usually have 2 oz in my jars after washing. I did a small starter with some runnings off my tun. Let it sit on the stir plate during the boil. It blew the cap off my flask. Pitched and it fermented fine. I usually us my washed yeast after like 2-3 weeks, but have gone several months many a time. Never had a problem, and never had it not take off. Just my 2 cents, but I think people are way too parinoid about stuff in homebrewing anymore.
SBRHAHB. Remember, sierra nevada ferments in open containers, people worry too much

 

[masonsjax]

Obviously not. The commercial liquid yeast is in a much cleaner medium though.

The Yeast book says 50% viability after 4 weeks, which is exactly what the Mr. Malty calculator says.

The yeast book and mr malty are both products by the same man, so of course they will agree. Chris White co-wrote the yeast book. Do you think it behooves him to claim stored yeast viability drops off quickly?

 

[mtnagel]

I have used washed yeast over a year later. I usually have 2 oz in my jars after washing. I did a small starter with some runnings off my tun. Let it sit on the stir plate during the boil. It blew the cap off my flask. Pitched and it fermented fine. I usually us my washed yeast after like 2-3 weeks, but have gone several months many a time. Never had a problem, and never had it not take off. Just my 2 cents, but I think people are way too parinoid about stuff in homebrewing anymore.
SBRHAHB. Remember, sierra nevada ferments in open containers, people worry too much

I wasn't talking about washed yeast. I was talking about harvested yeast cake from a fermentor. I too agree that washed yeast will last a long time.

The yeast book and mr malty are both products by the same man, so of course they will agree. Chris White co-wrote the yeast book. Do you think it behooves him to claim stored yeast viability drops off quickly?

Another thread just got bumped today with pertinent info (I can't vouch for the accuracy, but I do hope to listen to the brew strong episodes he's talking about):

I was wrong...

There were two episodes. One was yeast washing and the other was repitching yeast. They stated that not rinsing the yeast caused a drastic reduction in viability. The reasons they gave were

1) the trub contains some food for the yeast. If there is a small bit of food they will not go dormant and continue to use up their reserves.

2) boiled water is low in o2. Using boiled water and being careful not to reintroduce o2 into it while rinsing will aid in putting them to 'sleep'. If they have o2 they will, once again, continue to use up their reserves.

Sent from my SCH-R970 using Home Brew mobile app

 

[fearwig]

That makes sense to me. I'm probably not going to wash yeast I plan to use within 2-3 months because you pour half your yeast down the drain and are pretty much bound to use a starter, but for long-term storage that seems sensible.

 

[AnOldUR]

I'm probably not going to wash yeast I plan to use within 2-3 months because I pour half my yeast down the drain . . .

Fixed that for you.

You're doing it wrong.

 

[fearwig]

Say what you want, you're doing it too!

"The dark stuff, that's all trub. The light stuff, that's about 100% yeast." - some guy who was wrong who everyone subsequently believed for all time because it sounds kinda right-ish

Even figuring for 100% perfect procedure, you're probably wasting a majority of your yeast to that "trub". Which is fine, if you're going to make a starter anyway. That's enough bombs thrown for me today, though. Maybe.

 

[AnOldUR]

Say what you want, you're doing it too!

ummmm . . . got three of these from my last batch.

 

[stpug]

IMO, there's merit to both ways (and the ways inbetween, too!). I don't see it as wrong or right here; simply as what suits your current situation better. There are circumstances when rinsing the yeast might be beneficial to a specific beer, or when a much higher yeast pitching rater is more important, or when extremely clean yeast is needed for freezing, or when oxygen-/food-free top water is preferential for long term storage. It's not about my wrench being better than your wrench; it's about having a couple sets/styles of wrenches to choose from for the specific job at hand.

 

[fearwig]

I can't tell what size jars those are or what size batch you brewed, but I didn't say you can't get a quantity of yeast from washing. I said you're wasting yeast by washing. Which is fine, you're probably saving the more viable yeast on average.

"Wash or don't" has been litigated to death, you can go find that thread. Except for ensuring long term storage as described in this thread I say you're making your jars pretty at the expense of total cell count, even if you still manage to get what you consider enough. Not even going to get into the time investment, so you can say "But I do it in thirty seconds, with my eyes closed."

Edit: It's a shame I didn't get this in before St. Pug's post though, because I think that is the best possible final word on this.

 

[AnOldUR]

I can't tell what size jars those are or what size batch you brewed, but I didn't say you can't get a quantity of yeast from washing. I said you're wasting yeast by washing.

The pictures above are quart jars of yeast from 7 gallons of beer. Very little of the slurry went down the drain. The part that most homebrewers miss is keeping the slurry clean in the first place. Here are a couple of batches being cold crashed in the primary so that the yeast compacts before transfer. Technically, I do a quick rinse, not wash, so you are correct. You can lose a lot of yeast if you do the full washing procedure. I guess my point is that you don’t have to lose half your yeast and you can still get a clean slurry.

edit:
masonsjax, thanks for correction below. I was mistakenly refering to the yeast washing illustrated sticky.

 

[masonsjax]

It's all rinsing technically, washing is done in a lab using acid.

 

[AnOldUR]

. . . so you can say "But I do it in thirty seconds, with my eyes closed.

Not that anyone asked :cross:, but my method is to cold crash the primary to compact the yeast. That way I can tilt the carboy and get all but about an ounce or so of the beer out. I add about a quart and a half of boiled and chilled water and gently swirl to get the yeast into suspension. I only let it rest for a short time before decanting into the mason jars trying to leave the fallen krausen crust and other solids behind.

So, maybe not 30 seconds and it helps to keep my eyes open, but it's pretty quick.

 

[masonsjax]

Several experts have weighed in saying beer is the best storage medium while others have said boiled water is. I happen to believe the evidence gives beer a slight advantage, with the added benefit that it's less work. So I do the same thing as AnOldUR except that instead of adding water, I just leave behind a little beer to swirl the yeast into a slurry before collecting it in jars. Obviously both methods work well. Pick one that you like. Try both. Alternate methods. It's your beer, do what you want, as long as you enjoy it.

 

[fearwig]

Technically, I do a quick rinse, not wash, so you are correct. You can lose a lot of yeast if you do the full washing procedure. I guess my point is that you don’t have to lose half your yeast and you can still get a clean slurry.

Well I totally agree with that. I have considered doing some rinsing but I don't think I would ever do the elaborate jar-pouring-repouring ritual most people mean when they say they wash their yeast.

 

[AnOldUR]

I agree with masonsjax. I don't think either method is "better" at producing good beer, but earlier in this thread there was a discussion about sealing your jars of stored yeast. I'd guess that those who have had problems with exploding jars have stored in a medium of beer that included some residual sugar and oxygen. Good rinsing technique might eliminate this problem and allow sealing the lids for better longer term storage.

 

[kombat]

1) pitch the appropriate amount as is at 17 days from harvesting.
2) make a starter with a portion of it to wake up the yeast before pitching which will dilute out some of the dead yeast cells and trub that is in there now.

I would (and do) just pitch the jar.