NEIPA Grain Bill to achieve Opaque Pale Yellow

[MakeDankBeer]

That might just be the most unappetizing beer I have ever seen. It looks like baby vomit in a glass. To each there own, I guess.

solid contribution

 

[brew703]

For me, i want clear beer but i understand the style and that's what people want.
Next time i brew a NEIPA, i will make some changes to the grain bill and fine with gelatin to try and clear it up.

 

[Smellyglove]

It's not just the grainbill how I see it. You need of course a good grainbill, but to get extra (milky) haze you need to boil as gentle as possible. If you go full out on the boil energy you'll coagulate a lot of haze and body positive proteins. You need to have good control of the boil intensity as well. It takes just a minute or two with excess heat to observe that there's suddenly more big chunks floating around, those chunks will sink to the bottom and not contribute to the haze or body as if the proteins were free-floating. It's at least one step of many towards the milkiness afaik.

 

[TravelingLight]

It's not just the grainbill how I see it. You need of course a good grainbill, but to get extra (milky) haze you need to boil as gentle as possible. If you go full out on the boil energy you'll coagulate a lot of haze and body positive proteins. You need to have good control of the boil intensity as well. It takes just a minute or two with excess heat to observe that there's suddenly more big chunks floating around, those chunks will sink to the bottom and not contribute to the haze or body as if the proteins were free-floating. It's at least one step of many towards the milkiness afaik.

I've never heard of boil intensity having an effect on haze in these beers. Certainly not saying you're wrong, but I'd love to see evidence of this. Yes, it's likely due to the higher amounts of protein in the wort of these beers, i.e., when oxidized polyphenols react with proteins, the bindings are irreversible resulting in perma-haze (about 80% of polyphenols come from malt, 20% from hops). Then, you have the early, or biotransformation dry hop. Protein content in wort decreases during fermentation. By dry hopping early, polyphenols in hops are being exposed to a higher amount of available active proteins in the wort. Also, in re: proteins sinking to the bottom of the pot, isn't that what happens anyway when we chill beer, i.e., cold break?

 

[Lynchy217]

"Milky" should not be what you're going for. As a few have mentioned, the goal is the soft pillowy mouthfeel, low bitterness, high hop aromatics. As for Haze, it comes with the territory of hopping during active fermentation. I hop about 3 days after brew day and then cold crash (a necessity with this style IMO) when fermentation is complete. My beers stay hazy similarly to Trillium and Tree House for a month after kegging (never had one longer than that) even with the cold crash. People looking to make the murkiest, cloudiest beer possible are missing the point, IMO. The beer pictured in the OP is exactly why I cold crash. I would never serve something with that much precipitate in it to my guests, particularly since the precipitate in these beers tends to be quite bitter which is opposed to the goals of the style.

 

[203PH]

I used 8# Rahr 2 Row, 1 1/2# and 12oz Flaked Oats. Came out nice and hazy, not murky. Can't wait to brew it again.

 

[Todes]

View attachment 564861

This is what I'm getting. This last one was a hefty amount of malted wheat. Also added primary hops and dry hops. Fermented with imperial "juice" and about 150ppm cacl2.

I would love to know how they get that opacity though!

What is your malt bill, it looks great to me!

 

[wepeeler]

I've never heard of boil intensity having an effect on haze in these beers. Certainly not saying you're wrong, but I'd love to see evidence of this. Yes, it's likely due to the higher amounts of protein in the wort of these beers, i.e., when oxidized polyphenols react with proteins, the bindings are irreversible resulting in perma-haze (about 80% of polyphenols come from malt, 20% from hops). Then, you have the early, or biotransformation dry hop. Protein content in wort decreases during fermentation. By dry hopping early, polyphenols in hops are being exposed to a higher amount of available active proteins in the wort. Also, in re: proteins sinking to the bottom of the pot, isn't that what happens anyway when we chill beer, i.e., cold break?

I've boiled the snot out of my neipas and never had any issues with haze. Also, I've never observed anything chunky floating around in the boil. Done rolling boils, done soft boils.

 

[ccous]

I've boiled the snot out of my neipas and never had any issues with haze. Also, I've never observed anything chunky floating around in the boil. Done rolling boils, done soft boils.

The only thing I’ve noticed with gentler boiling is a lack of head and retention

 

[wepeeler]

The only thing I’ve noticed with gentler boiling is a lack of head and retention

Usually with this style there is so much adjunct added that head retention isn't an issue.

 

[SRJHops]

Lots of comments about murkiness and some nice-looking grain bills, but I'm also wondering how to get a much lighter/lower SRM for my NEIPA.

I've been using Pilsner for the base, some white wheat, a little carapils, and flaked barley. I actually don't care about murkiness -- I'm more interested in flavor (which I have) and lowering the color (not there yet). I'd love to be closer to 2 or 3 SRM, but I'm closer to 5 or even 6.

Not the biggest problem, really, since the beer tastes great -- but I'd be interested in learning techniques to lower the SRM to match some of the really light-colored NEIPA's that are being brewed.

Wondering if these things could help:

1. Shorter boil time. I've been using Pilsner and boiling for an hour, but if I switched to 2-row I could probably bring it up to 180 degrees and skip the boil altogether, since I'm not adding hops during the boil. Or just do a 20 minute boil, etc.

2. Lower the grain bill total and ABV. I've been brewing double NEIPA's, but if I tried to hit an ABV of 6 instead of 7, perhaps the color would be lighter.

3. Replace some grain with sugar. I have a suspicion that some of the really light NEIPA's are doing this.

Thoughts?

 

[wepeeler]

Lots of comments about murkiness and some nice-looking grain bills, but I'm also wondering how to get a much lighter/lower SRM for my NEIPA.

I've been using Pilsner for the base, some white wheat, a little carapils, and flaked barley. I actually don't care about murkiness -- I'm more interested in flavor (which I have) and lowering the color (not there yet). I'd love to be closer to 2 or 3 SRM, but I'm closer to 5 or even 6.

Not the biggest problem, really, since the beer tastes great -- but I'd be interested in learning techniques to lower the SRM to match some of the really light-colored NEIPA's that are being brewed.

Wondering if these things could help:

1. Shorter boil time. I've been using Pilsner and boiling for an hour, but if I switched to 2-row I could probably bring it up to 180 degrees and skip the boil altogether, since I'm not adding hops during the boil. Or just do a 20 minute boil, etc.

2. Lower the grain bill total and ABV. I've been brewing double NEIPA's, but if I tried to hit an ABV of 6 instead of 7, perhaps the color would be lighter.

3. Replace some grain with sugar. I have a suspicion that some of the really light NEIPA's are doing this.

Thoughts?

Post your recipe. I've used all 2 row and all Golden Promise and my color is low 5s, according to Beersmith, but looks lighter. I would imagine Pilsner malt would be even lighter. Not sure you can get 2-3 with these malts.

 

[SRJHops]

Post your recipe. I've used all 2 row and all Golden Promise and my color is low 5s, according to Beersmith, but looks lighter. I would imagine Pilsner malt would be even lighter. Not sure you can get 2-3 with these malts.

6 gals:
12# pilsner
1.5# white wheat
1# flaked barley
.25# carapils
.25#honey malt

I've been backing off the flaked additions lately, since I'm not interested in more haziness - I seem to get plenty from the biotrans.

It also occurs to me that instead of sugar, I could add some flaked corn or rice to lower the SRM.

 

[wepeeler]

6 gals:
12# pilsner
1.5# white wheat
1# flaked barley
.25# carapils
.25#honey malt

I've been backing off the flaked additions lately, since I'm not interested in more haziness - I seem to get plenty from the biotrans.

It also occurs to me that instead of sugar, I could add some flaked corn or rice to lower the SRM.

Try dropping the carapils and honey and add in a bit more wheat to compensate. I use mostly 2 row and my color seems very light. I have a recipe with Pilsner malt instead of 2 row, but I haven't made it yet. I would imagine that would be super light. Not sure you can get a 2-3 SRM with this style though.

 

[SRJHops]

Try dropping the carapils and honey and add in a bit more wheat to compensate. I use mostly 2 row and my color seems very light. I have a recipe with Pilsner malt instead of 2 row, but I haven't made it yet. I would imagine that would be super light. Not sure you can get a 2-3 SRM with this style though.

Thanks. I will drop the honey for sure... I see it in lots of recipes, but not really sure it's doing much with all the hops flavor I am getting (I use 18 ounces of hops for a 6 gallon batch).

I kind of like the head retention and mouthfeel I think I am getting from the carapils, though it could also be coming from the wheat. It also occurs to me that if I add MORE flaked additions, it could lower the color. So I think I'll add back in some flaked oats.

I was worried about oxidation, and I'd read that maybe the oats were a problem in addition to all the hops/phenols. But now that I have a closed system and bottle right from the fermenter, my NEIPA's are WAY better and don't seem to oxidize much at all -- they actually get better after a few weeks in the bottle.

I think I will also switch to 2-row for my next batch...

 

[malhal]

In my experience with this style is that you need 3 things to get the biotransformation extra hazy almost solid haze:

Trub proteins in solution
Dry hops
Active fermentation

If you use fining agent then there are no proteins in solution. If your fermentation start lags then the proteins will have already settled. If you use oats to overcome this issue then you lose head rentention. Rehydrating dried yeast helps it start faster. I’ve been using M15 that starts in a few hours and I put the first dry hops in the next day and has worked great. Second dry hop after a few days and airlock activity has slowed.

To get the lightest possible yellow I use the light pale malt, boil for 30 mins, and be extra careful at all stages to prevent any caramelisation on the heating element. I dip a sieve after sparging to get any tiny grain particles out and give the element a scrape now and again. Ferment in 7 days. Cold crash for an hour just to get large hop particles down. Bottle condition with sugar drops (and plastic bottle squeeze air out trick) in 7 days. Both in the dark. Refridgerate and drink fast.

 

[wepeeler]

Thanks. I will drop the honey for sure... I see it in lots of recipes, but not really sure it's doing much with all the hops flavor I am getting (I use 18 ounces of hops for a 6 gallon batch).

I kind of like the head retention and mouthfeel I think I am getting from the carapils, though it could also be coming from the wheat. It also occurs to me that if I add MORE flaked additions, it could lower the color. So I think I'll add back in some flaked oats.

I was worried about oxidation, and I'd read that maybe the oats were a problem in addition to all the hops/phenols. But now that I have a closed system and bottle right from the fermenter, my NEIPA's are WAY better and don't seem to oxidize much at all -- they actually get better after a few weeks in the bottle.

I think I will also switch to 2-row for my next batch...

I tried all Golden Promise, and it was fairly light. I did add 4 oz of Honey Malt when I used all 2 Row, and the color was nearly identical to all GP. I could see leaving it out, but 4 oz is probably negligible. I would say just mash higher if you want it a bit sweeter. Definitely go higher on the wheat. I usually do 2:1 Wheat vs Oats. Might even try all wheat in the future.

I know you said you bottle, but if you can reasonably switch to kegging, you'll like this style even more.

 

[JohnK93]

I've had my fair share of NEIPAs from Tree House, Trillium, and others in the northeast, as well as several homebrewed versions, and I've never come across a beer that actually looks like that. I look at and take a lot of beer photography, and I've seen photos like this, I've just never seen an actual beer that looks this murky and opaque in person.

Could it be a bit of camera trickery or certain lighting that makes it look so hazy?

 

[day_trippr]

You're right, and it's been said often, these bear no visible kinship with the classics...

Cheers!

 

[wepeeler]

I've had my fair share of NEIPAs from Tree House, Trillium, and others in the northeast, as well as several homebrewed versions, and I've never come across a beer that actually looks like that. I look at and take a lot of beer photography, and I've seen photos like this, I've just never seen an actual beer that looks this murky and opaque in person.

Could it be a bit of camera trickery or certain lighting that makes it look so hazy?

Julius, Green, Haze, Alter Ego and said versions of these beers from TH are all super hazy a la even murky. I've had Congress St, Scaled Up and Cutting Tiles from Trillium - same thing - haze bombs. I've never had one of those TH beers I mentioned drop clear. The recipe on here from @Braufessor actually looks a lot cleaner than these beers. Nice soft haze with brilliant color. But it does drop clear after about 6 weeks in the keg. I've since modified his recipe, but his basic recipe is fantastic.

 

[JohnK93]

Julius, Green, Haze, Alter Ego and said versions of these beers from TH are all super hazy a la even murky. I've had Congress St, Scaled Up and Cutting Tiles from Trillium - same thing - haze bombs. I've never had one of those TH beers I mentioned drop clear. The recipe on here from @Braufessor actually looks a lot cleaner than these beers. Nice soft haze with brilliant color. But it does drop clear after about 6 weeks in the keg. I've since modified his recipe, but his basic recipe is fantastic.

I’ve had all those and they are hazy and murky for sure, but I don’t remember them being as as light and opaque as the pic posted. Very Green is the closest that I’ve seen. In my experience, they never looks as hazy in person as in the pics that people post.

I’ve brewed braufessor’s recipe a couple times...pretty hazy and a bit more orange in color...mine’s never made it 6 weeks in the keg!

 

[wepeeler]

I’ve had all those and they are hazy and murky for sure, but I don’t remember them being as as light and opaque as the pic posted. Very Green is the closest that I’ve seen. In my experience, they never looks as hazy in person as in the pics that people post.

I’ve brewed braufessor’s recipe a couple times...pretty hazy and a bit more orange in color...mine’s never made it 6 weeks in the keg!

Green looks a bit like that ie color and haze, except the OP looks a tad bit yeasty.

My first response was actually for another thread where people were posting their neipa pics, sorry

 

[SRJHops]

In my experience with this style is that you need 3 things to get the biotransformation extra hazy almost solid haze:

Trub proteins in solution
Dry hops
Active fermentation

If you use fining agent then there are no proteins in solution. If your fermentation start lags then the proteins will have already settled. If you use oats to overcome this issue then you lose head rentention. Rehydrating dried yeast helps it start faster. I’ve been using M15 that starts in a few hours and I put the first dry hops in the next day and has worked great. Second dry hop after a few days and airlock activity has slowed.

To get the lightest possible yellow I use the light pale malt, boil for 30 mins, and be extra careful at all stages to prevent any caramelisation on the heating element. I dip a sieve after sparging to get any tiny grain particles out and give the element a scrape now and again. Ferment in 7 days. Cold crash for an hour just to get large hop particles down. Bottle condition with sugar drops (and plastic bottle squeeze air out trick) in 7 days. Both in the dark. Refridgerate and drink fast.

Good tips, all thanks. Good to see someone else has figured out that sugar drops in the bottles = skipping the bottling bucket.

I assume the plastic bottle squeeze trick is using plastic bottles and squeezing out the air. Do you just screw on the tops? Do they make them in 22 oz bombers? I am actually not having oxidation issues anymore, now that I have mostly closed system, but any trick to reduce oxygen contact is welcomed.

My NEIPA's actually peak after a few weeks in the bottle, and so far they seem to make it 6 weeks without much oxidation. They are are all gone by then, so not sure if they would last even longer!

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Most of mine look like post 5. To get that super bright orange juice look of post 1 I've seen some people throwing in a bit of cara-red. I cannot vouch for how well that works because I've never tried. I honestly think that looks gross and I shoot for the more golden/hazy look in my juicy IPAs.

 

[sicktght311]

My grain bills have been pretty straight forward and i've had no problem with color or haze. This is my "Oats n Hoes" NEIPA. Still as hazy a month later as it was the day it came out of the fermenter.

This is my average grain bill for something like this
40% 2-row
20% Golden Promise
10% White Wheat
10% Flaked Wheat
20% Flaked Oats

Mash at 152 or 154 depending on the hops. If i go for slightly lower AA hops i mash at 152, higher AA i stick to 154.
No boil hops, first charge is whirlpool for 20 minutes around 180ish degrees. First Dryhop on day 2 of active fermentation, then 2nd dryhop 3-5 days before kegging. I use Imperial Juice yeast, or 1318, although i want to give it a shot with US04 next time.

 

[Homergah]

First pic we used pale 2 row, c20, red wheat. Hard boil, whirlfloc, fast wort chilling after whirlpool. All those things you supposedly should not do for this style. BS
Second pic changed to c40 which threw a bit of color, but we used rolled oats instead of red wheat. The color nearly balances. All other details are exact between the two brews. If you want that yellow color, use oats in addition to pils malt. I personally prefer the flavor attributes of pale 2 row.

 

[SRJHops]

My grain bills have been pretty straight forward and i've had no problem with color or haze. This is my "Oats n Hoes" NEIPA. Still as hazy a month later as it was the day it came out of the fermenter.

This is my average grain bill for something like this
40% 2-row
20% Golden Promise
10% White Wheat
10% Flaked Wheat
20% Flaked Oats

Mash at 152 or 154 depending on the hops. If i go for slightly lower AA hops i mash at 152, higher AA i stick to 154.
No boil hops, first charge is whirlpool for 20 minutes around 180ish degrees. First Dryhop on day 2 of active fermentation, then 2nd dryhop 3-5 days before kegging. I use Imperial Juice yeast, or 1318, although i want to give it a shot with US04 next time.

Your recipe and beer look great! I am wondering about your OG and FG and ABV? I've been wondering if using less grain and shooting for 1.055 might help lighten the color? (I usually shoot for 1.060.) Of course, I could also just use sugar to drive the color even lower!

I've been using 04, BTW. Seems to work well, but I'm switching to Juice and/or 1318 to get more flavor. If you do try 04, let us know if you like it the same, better, or worse.

 

[sicktght311]

Your recipe and beer look great! I am wondering about your OG and FG and ABV? I've been wondering if using less grain and shooting for 1.055 might help lighten the color? Of course, I could also just use sugar to drive the color even lower!

This one was 1.064, and I ended at 1.012. Abv ended around 6.8%

 

[SRJHops]

This one was 1.064, and I ended at 1.012. Abv ended around 6.8%

Thanks -- lower OG must not be the answer!

 

[sicktght311]

J

Thanks -- lower OG must not be the answer!

just use very light color base malts like Pilsner, 2 row, or golden promise, don’t add any crystals, and use a lot of flaked adjuncts to achieve the protein content and the mouthfeel. Don’t overboil, 60 mins is plenty. And most importantly, avoid oxygen at all costs