NEIPA Grain Bill to achieve Opaque Pale Yellow

[Cavpilot2000]

I find it funny that a Texas brewery is making New England IPAs in a way that is totally unlike actual NEIPAs (they're not generally that "murky" up here).

As I always say, the best, original NEIPAs (Heady, Julius, etc.) were cloudy as a side effect of the process and ingredients, NOT as a goal.
Therefore it seems silly to pursue opacity or murkiness as a goal rather than the goal being a good beer that happens to be cloudy/murky/opaque.

Again, most of those original (and still best examples of) NEIPAs are hazy, not milky opaque. Chasing opacity as a primary goal rather that good beer as a primary goal that may or may not be murky, cloudy, hazy, etc...is putting form over function.

 

[Hwk-I-St8]

I find it funny that a Texas brewery is making New England IPAs in a way that is totally unlike actual NEIPAs (they're not generally that "murky" up here).

As I always say, the best, original NEIPAs (Heady, Julius, etc.) were cloudy as a side effect of the process and ingredients, NOT as a goal.
Therefore it seems silly to pursue opacity or murkiness as a goal rather than the goal being a good beer that happens to be cloudy/murky/opaque.

Again, most of those original (and still best examples of) NEIPAs are hazy, not milky opaque. Chasing opacity as a primary goal rather that good beer as a primary goal that may or may not be murky, cloudy, hazy, etc...is putting form over function.

This. Too many people get caught up chasing the haze. The original brewers of this style tried to figure out how to get rid of the haze and keep the flavor and, ultimately, just sold 'em hazy. Heady cans say "drink from the can" and I've always assumed that was an attempt to hide the "flaw" of being so hazy.

Go for good flavor. If you follow the proper process, they haze will be a side effect.

 

[SRJHops]

I find it funny that a Texas brewery is making New England IPAs in a way that is totally unlike actual NEIPAs (they're not generally that "murky" up here).

As I always say, the best, original NEIPAs (Heady, Julius, etc.) were cloudy as a side effect of the process and ingredients, NOT as a goal.
Therefore it seems silly to pursue opacity or murkiness as a goal rather than the goal being a good beer that happens to be cloudy/murky/opaque.

Again, most of those original (and still best examples of) NEIPAs are hazy, not milky opaque. Chasing opacity as a primary goal rather that good beer as a primary goal that may or may not be murky, cloudy, hazy, etc...is putting form over function.

Which brewery is that, BTW? Heading down to Austin in a few weeks...

Agree. I'm not that interested in the haziness, just the flavor, and I'm neutral about the softness. I'm also really leaning toward the danker flavors, as opposed to the tropical ones. Going to use a lot more Simcoe in my next NEIPA...

 

[Cavpilot2000]

Which brewery is that, BTW? Heading down to Austin in a few weeks...

Agree. I'm not that interested in the haziness, just the flavor, and I'm neutral about the softness. I'm also really leaning toward the danker flavors, as opposed to the tropical ones. Going to use a lot more Simcoe in my next NEIPA...

Don't know - ask the OP. He/she didn't name the brewery they were trying to clone.
If you are indifferent to the haze/murkiness the OP is chasing, there are threads aplenty about making NEIPAs.
Which I find funny, because NEIPAs are easy to make. And, in fact, they are easy to make WELL, if you diligently keep oxygen out of them.
Actually, keeping oxygen out of them isn't necessary to make them good - it's only necessary if you want them to be good past a week after fermentation.

 

[SRJHops]

Don't know - ask the OP. He/she didn't name the brewery they were trying to clone.
If you are indifferent to the haze/murkiness the OP is chasing, there are threads aplenty about making NEIPAs.
Which I find funny, because NEIPAs are easy to make. And, in fact, they are easy to make WELL, if you diligently keep oxygen out of them.
Actually, keeping oxygen out of them isn't necessary to make them good - it's only necessary if you want them to be good past a week after fermentation.

I am interested in lowering the SRM, though, but I've since figured that out. I used to think it was using pils, but used 2-row on my latest and it's getting close to what I want.

I'm all over that NEIPA thread, believe me. I've successfully figured out how to bottle NEIPAs and keep the oxygen out-- and in fact they taste best after 3-4 weeks in the bottle.

In addition to the oxidation issue, I find them fun/challenging because of all the variables, mostly related to the hop selection, rate, and schedule.

My version is well on its way, but I'm going to keep trying to improve it until I can say it's as good as the best. Might not ever get there, but the fun is in the attempt -- and I'll probably drink a lot of tasty beer along the way!

Alas, the beer from the OP is from outside of Houston. Lots of great NEIPA's in Austin, no doubt!

Cheers!

 

[sicktght311]

I am interested in lowering the SRM, though, but I've since figured that out. I used to think it was using pils, but used 2-row on my latest and it's getting close to what I want.

I'm all over that NEIPA thread, believe me. I've successfully figured out how to bottle NEIPAs and keep the oxygen out-- and in fact they taste best after 3-4 weeks in the bottle.

In addition to the oxidation issue, I find them fun/challenging because of all the variables, mostly related to the hop selection, rate, and schedule.

My version is well on its way, but I'm going to keep trying to improve it until I can say it's as good as the best. Might not ever get there, but the fun is in the attempt -- and I'll probably drink a lot of tasty beer along the way!

Alas, the beer from the OP is from outside of Houston. Lots of great NEIPA's in Austin, no doubt!

Cheers!

Don’t overthink it

Pale malt + a lot of flaked adjuncts. White wheat malt helps too if you add a percentage to your base malt

Don’t overboil it. 60mins is plenty

 

[Cavpilot2000]

NEIPAs are like porters - super easy to make a good one if you use some combination of the "standard" ingredients

Don’t overthink it

Pale malt + a lot of flaked adjuncts. White wheat malt helps too if you add a percentage to your base malt

Don’t overboil it. 60mins is plenty

In all reality, 30 min is enough boil for NEIPA, since you don't need a 60 min hops boil.

 

[SRJHops]

Don’t overthink it

Pale malt + a lot of flaked adjuncts. White wheat malt helps too if you add a percentage to your base malt

Don’t overboil it. 60mins is plenty

Yeah, would have agreed this morning, but this afternoon -- right before I went to my LHBS to get my supplies for tonight's brew -- I read the new NEIPA article by Scott Janish in Brew Your Own. His recipe does not use any flaked adjuncts, has two short 10-min hop stands at 200 and 185, and he recommends dialing down the wheat. And just when I thought I was figuring this style out...

 

[day_trippr]

Too much protein in the wort will actually precipitate out the hoppy goodness the brewer has pounded into the beer...

Cheers!

 

[VirginiaHops1]

Yeah, would have agreed this morning, but this afternoon -- right before I went to my LHBS to get my supplies for tonight's brew -- I read the new NEIPA article by Scott Janish in Brew Your Own. His recipe does not use any flaked adjuncts, has two short 10-min hop stands at 200 and 185, and he recommends dialing down the wheat. And just when I thought I was figuring this style out...

Despite what some may say there are many ways to make the style(high vs low adjuncts, biotrans hopping vs not, Cl/SO4 levels, etc). Many people have opined on what they think works best but they're just data points. Taste is incredibly subjective, it's all about what a brewer determines works best for them.

 

[PaisanMaisano]

Here's a simple 5 gallon version of my NEIPA. I've brewed numerous NEIPAs and the thing that puts these recipes into another dimension IMO is getting that mouthfeel right. It's all in the water additions. Here is also a link to a water profile calculator that I use. https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/ Your first step though is you must determine what is already in your water before you can make additions to it.

7.5 gallons water going in for BIAB brewing.

Profile additions for my water, (you are shooting for 200 ppm to 100 ppm Cl- to Ca+):
8 grams calcium chloride
4 grams gypsum
4 grams canning salt

Grain bill:
8 lbs. 2-row
3 lbs. Malted Oats
1 lb. Wheat malt
1 lb. Carafoam

Mash 152 for 1 hour.

Pull grains, bring to boil.
.75 oz Magnum 60 mins.
.75 lb lactose 20 mins.

Flameout and drop to 180deg for 30min hopstand letting the temp drop by itself gradually.
1 oz. Galaxy
1 oz. Amarillo
1 oz. Citra

pitch with Imperial Juice or Conan fermenting at 68 deg. for 14 days.

As soon as krausen begins, usually by the next morning, dry hop 7 days:
1 oz. Galaxy
1 oz. Amarillo
1 oz. Citra

2nd dry hop addition is on day 10 with:
1 oz. Amarillo
1 oz. Citra

OG 1.067
FG 1.020

ABV 6.1%

I promise you, you will obtain that murky look, smooth soft mouthfeel, an amazing nose, and sweet/hop flavor on this recipe! Lemme know if you give it a go and how it comes out.

-Paisan

 

[SRJHops]

Here's a simple 5 gallon version of my NEIPA. I've brewed numerous NEIPAs and the thing that puts these recipes into another dimension IMO is getting that mouthfeel right. It's all in the water additions. Here is also a link to a water profile calculator that I use. https://www.brewersfriend.com/water-chemistry/ Your first step though is you must determine what is already in your water before you can make additions to it.

7.5 gallons water going in for BIAB brewing.

Profile additions for my water, (you are shooting for 200 ppm to 100 ppm Cl- to Ca+):
8 grams calcium chloride
4 grams gypsum
4 grams canning salt

Grain bill:
8 lbs. 2-row
3 lbs. Malted Oats
1 lb. Wheat malt
1 lb. Carafoam

Mash 152 for 1 hour.

Pull grains, bring to boil.
.75 oz Magnum 60 mins.
.75 lb lactose 20 mins.

Flameout and drop to 180deg for 30min hopstand letting the temp drop by itself gradually.
1 oz. Galaxy
1 oz. Amarillo
1 oz. Citra

pitch with Imperial Juice or Conan fermenting at 68 deg. for 14 days.

As soon as krausen begins, usually by the next morning, dry hop 7 days:
1 oz. Galaxy
1 oz. Amarillo
1 oz. Citra

2nd dry hop addition is on day 10 with:
1 oz. Amarillo
1 oz. Citra

OG 1.067
FG 1.020

ABV 6.1%

I promise you, you will obtain that murky look, smooth soft mouthfeel, an amazing nose, and sweet/hop flavor on this recipe! Lemme know if you give it a go and how it comes out.

-Paisan

Looks good! Grain bill very close to mine. Surprised to see the focus on ca - what was your so4?

Jealous you get FG of 1.020 when mashing at 152. I can never seem to get much higher than 1.012 no matter what I do. I mashed at 158 last time and same thing.

I use 12 to 14 ounces of hops for 5 gal batch.

 

[PaisanMaisano]

Looks good! Grain bill very close to mine. Surprised to see the focus on ca - what was your so4?

Jealous you get FG of 1.020 when mashing at 152. I can never seem to get much higher than 1.012 no matter what I do. I mashed at 158 last time and same thing.

I use 12 to 14 ounces of hops for 5 gal batch.

I've read a bunch of articles and the one by Scott Janish showed anywhere from 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 usually in the 200 to 100 bill so I kinda went with that and from my experience it comes out smoothest. The so4 comes in at 79 ppm. If I drop gypsum to 3 grams it comes in around 59. Both are pretty good, and I haven't noticed too much going either way. I seriously recommend that water profile calculator posted above. It breaks it down very precise and shows at the bottom when playing with the numbers what you should expect.

I've also seen a lot of recipes with much higher hops as you use but I pretty much get what I'm looking for with what I posted above. I've never used that much hops in my NEIPAs so I can't say the effect of higher hop bills. One other thing I'll add from trial and error has been using oat malt vs flaked oats seems to give that murkiness over a slight haze. If you've ever had Other Half, Trillium, or Treehouse, their beers are very murky as opposed to some others that are in the NEIPA class but just with a slight haze. I dunno though. I'm generally a 2 year newbie at this, but I have been concentrating on NEIPAs because I love their flavor and smoothness when you get one that is really dialed in!

 

[tld6008]

I've read a bunch of articles and the one by Scott Janish showed anywhere from 1 to 1 or 2 to 1 usually in the 200 to 100 bill so I kinda went with that and from my experience it comes out smoothest. The so4 comes in at 79 ppm. If I drop gypsum to 3 grams it comes in around 59.

Interesting, I also have never seen the reference to a recommended Ca/CaCl ratio

 

[TravelingLight]

Looks good! Grain bill very close to mine. Surprised to see the focus on ca - what was your so4?

Jealous you get FG of 1.020 when mashing at 152. I can never seem to get much higher than 1.012 no matter what I do. I mashed at 158 last time and same thing.

I use 12 to 14 ounces of hops for 5 gal batch.

He's adding lactose, you saw that, right? I only mention it because I missed it at first and had the same thoughts as you!

 

[beersk]

Looks good! Grain bill very close to mine. Surprised to see the focus on ca - what was your so4?

Jealous you get FG of 1.020 when mashing at 152. I can never seem to get much higher than 1.012 no matter what I do. I mashed at 158 last time and same thing.

I use 12 to 14 ounces of hops for 5 gal batch.

I wouldn't be envious of that. 1.020 isn't a good goal to have for a final gravity unless you're brewing imperial stout.

 

[Nachopit]

My grain bills have been pretty straight forward and i've had no problem with color or haze. This is my "Oats n Hoes" NEIPA. Still as hazy a month later as it was the day it came out of the fermenter.

This is my average grain bill for something like this
40% 2-row
20% Golden Promise
10% White Wheat
10% Flaked Wheat
20% Flaked Oats

Mash at 152 or 154 depending on the hops. If i go for slightly lower AA hops i mash at 152, higher AA i stick to 154.
No boil hops, first charge is whirlpool for 20 minutes around 180ish degrees. First Dryhop on day 2 of active fermentation, then 2nd dryhop 3-5 days before kegging. I use Imperial Juice yeast, or 1318, although i want to give it a shot with US04 next time.

Congratulations. It looks spectacular. Can you share how many gallons and the total weight of grain

 

[sicktght311]

Congratulations. It looks spectacular. Can you share how many gallons and the total weight of grain

I've actually changed my recipe quite a bit since then, and i've settled on the following for the typical other half style oat cream neipa

Typically my "Into Fermenter" volume is around 6 gallons to account for dryhop absorption and any yeast/trub dump i do during fermentation and i'll end up with 4.5 to 5 gallons in the keg.

50% Pilsen Malt
35% Oat Malt
15% Flaked Oats
1lb Lactose

My last batch below was about 8lbs Pilsen, 5.5lbs oat malt, 2lbs Flaked oats


Mash at 152 for 60 minutes
Boil 60 minutes
-FWH with .5oz of Warrior or something similar for bittering
-170 degree whirlpool with around 5-6oz of your fave juice hops

Ferment at 66 with 1318, A38 Juice, OYL011 British V, or S04 if i'm out of above. Although if i'm fermenting on S04, i'll drop fermentation temp to 63/64 for the first 3-4 days and then raise to 68 at the end to clean up. Below was done with 1318 with a starter. Pitch rate of around 200b cells

-Day 2 biotransformation hops with about 3oz
-Day 5 oxygen free dryhop with about 6oz of juice hops

Cold crash for 3 days at 38
Keg and burst carbonate for 24hrs at 30psi, then serve at 12psi

Every step of the process after the Day 2 dryhop is completely oxygen free. I have a hop dropper set up with co2, i cold crash on co2, and then closed transfer to a co2 purged keg

 

[MrPowers]

Edit: @SRJHops

One thing that you can do to look at lightening the color of your beers is look into incorporating some low oxygen techniques. Some places to start are:
- deoxygenate strike water by preboiling
- underlet if possible and minimize splashing during the mash
- if you recirculate, make sure the wort return line is below the top of the mash
- use a soft/gentle boil

The recipe in the picture was:
1.058 OG
- 83% Fawcett Pearl
- 10% Weyermann Wheat
- 3.5% Fawcett Caramalt (15l)
- 3.5% Flaked Oats

The wort was actually remarkably clear going into the fermenter. 90% of the haze in this one was from the heavy Galaxy dry hop.

 

[Nachopit]

Thank you very mu

I've actually changed my recipe quite a bit since then, and i've settled on the following for the typical other half style oat cream neipa

Typically my "Into Fermenter" volume is around 6 gallons to account for dryhop absorption and any yeast/trub dump i do during fermentation and i'll end up with 4.5 to 5 gallons in the keg.

50% Pilsen Malt
35% Oat Malt
15% Flaked Oats
1lb Lactose

My last batch below was about 8lbs Pilsen, 5.5lbs oat malt, 2lbs Flaked oats


Mash at 152 for 60 minutes
Boil 60 minutes
-FWH with .5oz of Warrior or something similar for bittering
-170 degree whirlpool with around 5-6oz of your fave juice hops

Ferment at 66 with 1318, A38 Juice, OYL011 British V, or S04 if i'm out of above. Although if i'm fermenting on S04, i'll drop fermentation temp to 63/64 for the first 3-4 days and then raise to 68 at the end to clean up. Below was done with 1318 with a starter. Pitch rate of around 200b cells

-Day 2 biotransformation hops with about 3oz
-Day 5 oxygen free dryhop with about 6oz of juice hops

Cold crash for 3 days at 38
Keg and burst carbonate for 24hrs at 30psi, then serve at 12psi

Every step of the process after the Day 2 dryhop is completely oxygen free. I have a hop dropper set up with co2, i cold crash on co2, and then closed transfer to a co2 purged keg

Thank you very much. Let's see if I can get something similar

 

[Nachopit]

A long time ago, many people told me not to oxygenate the must when sparging. But I don't understand why if you still don't have hops to oxidize ...

 

[MrPowers]

A long time ago, many people told me not to oxygenate the must when sparging. But I don't understand why if you still don't have hops to oxidize ...

Grain will "oxidize" as well. Unless your hot side is REALLY tight and you're gotten used to the low oxygen flavor, you probably won't notice any flavor change. But, tightening up the hot side of your system and using a gentle boil can help lower the SRM of your wort.

My beers since switching to full low oxygen with a soft boil are at least 1 full SRM lighter in color than they were before (ie. what used to be 5 srm is now 4srm). That doesn't sound like a dramatic difference, but it can help a lot when you're trying to get that opaque pale yellow, especially in a DIPA.

 

[couchsending]

Pilsner malt and American White Wheat.

The beers appear so opaque because there are a ton of hop polyphenols in suspension. Southern Hemisphere hops have by far the highest polyphenol content. NZ, Australian, South African, etc.

Dry hop at a rate of 3-4 lb/bbl minimum (1.5-2oz/gallon) with some SH hops (Nelson, Galaxy, Vic Secret, Rakau, Southern Passion, Enigma, etc) and you’ll have something that looks like the beer in the first post.

It’ll probably also be chalky and astringent as all hell but that’s a whole different conversation.

 

[Nachopit]

Thank you very much for your help. the truth is that you have helped me a lot. Thanks again. Soon I will post photos of my progress

 

[Hoppyguy96]

Hi pal, hope you had some great results with all the replies you got. Anyway, I think I brewed a DIPA that looks very much akin to the one you were looking. My recipe is as follow :

-69% base malt (I used Canadian 2 row but GP is way better IMO)
-20% flaked oats
-5% wheat (malted)
-3.5% acidulated malt
-2.5% honey malt

Yeast was Verdant IPA by Lallemand fermented at around 20C or 68F, (1318 or london fog is pretty much the same).

HUGE hopping schedule as this was for a 2.5 gal batch (you could use anything and maybe easier on the hops but it turned out great and I don't brew that recipe often, next time I'Il do a more classic Citra-Mosaic-Galaxy) :

-1oz of Chinook and 1oz of Idaho Gem at 5 min left in the boil
-3oz of Chinook and 3oz of Idaho Gem at whirpool for 30min at 75C or 167F.
-3oz of Chinook and 3oz of Idaho Gem at dry hop 3 days before conditioning.

Here are some pictures!