NEIPA Bottle Oxidation and alternatives?

[Vale71]

If I boil water to remove O2, does it not regain O2 as it cools back down tp 70? I dunno.

Yes it does and because of the temperature it does so quite quickly too. Plus warm extraction definitely does not give the same results as cold extraction.

 

[Nubiwan]

Yes, I'm still using a bottling bucket and I believe with decent results . As almost always in homebrewing, there are many ways to skin this cat, I think.
FWIW that beer I was talking about placed first in NEIPA category in a comp we have over here. And I know for a fact that in that comp also small commercial craft brewers are participating (mostly micro and nano scale)...but people who do have unitanks, kegs, ability to perform closed transfers, beer gun or counter-pressure bottle filling, and all that cool stuff. Granted, it may not be at the level of some comps you guys have over there in the US...and it is not my purpose to brag or anything, but just to make the point that it could not have been objectively a bad NEIPA.



I added 1 gram per gallon. I took the dosage suggested by @tyrub42 in his post in that other thread that was linked here. The dosage seems a bit high, maybe next time I will try to scale it down a bit (it is way more than the package recommended).
And no noticeable flavor contributions.
I would go with ascorbic acid rather than citric. It is certainly more flavor neutral and the antioxidant power is also higher, I believe...

@Taket_al_Tauro - super thanks man! I am pinning my entire hopes on AA, as you have suggested.

Though I never read the entire post, I found it interesting that @tyrub42 introduced his AA during the bottling bucket and sugar (with some KMB- how much, I wonder?), while you chose to do it at dry hop time (minus KMB)? I wonder if it makes any difference.

You opted not to use KMB or SMB (assume Potassium Metabi is the first yes?). Might I ask why? I have read only small amounts would be OK. I wonder if @tyrub42 has done any batches minus KMB since.

Bit redundant now probably, but you guys also spoke of water chemistry, which I pay very little heed to. I live in Eastern Canada. My water is super low in any additives and minerals. Like almost zeros across the board. Am I therefore likely to have a high or low pH mash? Should I be adding to it to avoid pH issues - specific to IPAs? I don't bother with anything else I make, and I have been happy enough with my other beers.

I'm off to my LHBS to buy some AA and up my Dry Hop Anti

Very excited for my first NEIPA. Its in the bucket as we speak.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Bit redundant now probably, but you guys also spoke of water chemistry, which I pay very little heed to. I live in Eastern Canada. My water is super low in any additives and minerals. Like almost zeros across the board. Am I therefore likely to have a high or low pH mash? Should I be adding to it to avoid pH issues - specific to IPAs? I don't bother with anything else I make, and I have been happy enough with my other beers.

As I understand it, your water is essentially RO / distilled water. This article Water Chemistry – How to Build Your Water – Bertus Brewery, which could be considered the "Cliff Notes" of A Brewing Water Chemistry Primer, is one good starting point.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Though I never read the entire post, I found it interesting that @tyrub42 introduced his AA during the bottling bucket and sugar (with some KMB- how much, I wonder?), while you chose to do it at dry hop time (minus KMB)? I wonder if it makes any difference.

You opted not to use KMB or SMB (assume Potassium Metabi is the first yes?). Might I ask why? I have read only small amounts would be OK. I wonder if @tyrub42 has done any batches minus KMB since.

My reasoning for introducing it already at dry hopping time is that it might help in scavenging that little bit of oxygen that gets inevitably in with the dry hops (either from the dry hops themselves and/or from opening the fermenter). But I have no idea if this has indeed any significant benefit over introducing it at bottling time. On the other hand I do not think it had an adverse effect, either (for example that the ascorbic acid would all be consumed and thus ineffective by the time you bottle a few days later). From the look of things it seems the ascorbic acid, and the timing of adding it, has been effective for me, but I will have to do a few more tests in the future of headspace purging vs no purging to confirm this.

As for the KMB. If I remember correctly @tyrub42 had it already, because he uses it also for his water treatment (chloramine removal). I do not need to do that to my water so I did not have the stuff around the house, and I figured I would try it first just with the ascorbic. If I can avoid adding one more chemical that might not be strictly necessary, why not? There are apparently some theories that say that ascorbic acid alone might become a super-oxidant under certain circumstances, and do more harm than good. By adding KMB or SMB you can apparently prevent that.

Bit redundant now probably, but you guys also spoke of water chemistry, which I pay very little heed to. I live in Eastern Canada. My water is super low in any additives and minerals. Like almost zeros across the board. Am I therefore likely to have a high or low pH mash? Should I be adding to it to avoid pH issues - specific to IPAs? I don't bother with anything else I make, and I have been happy enough with my other beers.

Yes water chemistry and, above all, alkalinity & pH control are important and I am convinced this has been the single most important factor that contributed to increased quality and consistency in my homebrew. However I have to deal with very alkaline water where I live. So to me it became clear almost from the very beginning that I needed to focus on this aspect.
It seems you are fortunate enough to have a very good starting water for brewing. Probably there is not much you need to do. However, and especially for styles like IPAs/NEIPAs it might still be worth to delve a bit deeper into the subject. From hints you get here and there from both the best commercial as well as homebrewers of these styles, pH control across the whole brewing process (mash, sparge, boil, fermenter) seems to be paramount to get the maximum out of these beers.

Good luck on your first NEIPA, let us know how it turns out!

 

[Nubiwan]

@Taket_al_Tauro one last question.... or two, or more

Ferment temp? My ambient temp in basement is around 64 degrees - do you crash at all? I have a porch down there would take it to around 45 degrees if needed, but I am reading no crashes for NEIPAs.

Bottling / Carbonation temp? I generally warm up a basement bedroom to around 70-72 degrees. Open a bottle after week, to check, and Its usually easily drinkable by then. If i feel it is ready, should I refrigerate the lot? Doubt they will all fit in our spare fridge with my 2 ambers, and lagers. SWMBO would also shoot me. Could dump bottles out in the garage. 40 degrees out there or less.

What CO2 volume you aim for? Do you prime a little higher sugar since you fill bottles? Lower?

For my 6 gallon beers I rather just throw 3/4 cup of sugar in the bottle bucket after boiling and gently stir. I have yet to weigh sugar. Estimate for around 2.5 CO2 on the calculator and go from there. Never entirely sure the exact volume after trub anyway. Do you use regular table sugar?

Ok 10 questions

PS - just had a sample to do a gravity. Man that stuff tastes super tasty. I'd drink it as is carbonated. What a bite its got. Colour is pale yellow. Hardly any colour of note. Forgot to take SG reading. Never really my intent.

 

[kbaggen]

@kbaggen - can you explain #6 "hop tea" - is this a hop tea to dry hop? A wet hop? Or for after the boil/whirlpooling? Sorry - first I've heard of hop tea.

If I boil water to remove O2, does it not regain O2 as it cools back down tp 70? I dunno.

#3 why no sugar dilutions? You mean as stirred in a bottling bucket? That is, unfortunately, my normal practice. Pretty sure I read someone still uses a bottling bucket with decent results. Does seem it would be added O2 risk.

what I do is boil the water, as it removes some oxegyn and sterilize. I let it fail till 70´C as this do not give bitterness then, and hence only exttract aroma. So you can say this hop tea used though the bottling is an advance dry hopping more than a common hop tea.

It is true the falling of temperature from boiling till 70´C will encrease the oxygen amount again, and I am not sure how fast this equalibum goes.....but I guess this is the best we can do so to speak.

I can only say that after I done this for the last 3x10L NEIPAs I ahve not had issues with any darkning/oxidazation at all.

Ok, 10L do not hold that long, but I got pictures at 90, 120, and soon to come of 150days (got one bottle left), of above brew.

Will take a picture of other/later brew there is at 60days now, wich is also very bright yellow still.

Did that answer you questions?

 

[tyrub42]

@Nubiwan @Taket_al_Tauro just to answer some of your questions I missed:

-correct, I have kmeta anyway for water treatment. Also, while it does make me feel safer to use a tiny bit, the whole superoxidizer thing seems to be theoretical and I couldn't find a single example of someone actually experiencing it from adding AA without Kmeta.

-If use a bottling bucket so it's definitely possible to do it. I also bottle condition and honestly I feel it does a lot to keep bottles fresh for months compared to force carbonating and then bottling. The caveat is that I do go through a lot of co2 in a bottling day. I purge the hell out of my bottling bucket (like 1+min of co2 free flowing into it before any beer or proming sugar enter), purge bottles and purge headspaces. I don't do liquid purging or closed transfers, though, as that isn't possible with my equipment. If you don't have co2, simply using the AA and filling bottles up so that they have almost no headspace (just enough for the liquid to expand if it heats up a bit so your bottle won't explode) seems to do a great job. I did this reluctantly when I ran out of co2 and the NEIPA held up really well luckily.

-I don't believe it would make a big difference to change the timing of the AA addition, as oxidation is typically happening at bottling time. However if you're worried about cold crashing sucking o2 into the beer, then maybe it would be better to add it beforehand. OTOH you have to open the fermenter to add it, which can also add o2. My guess is either way would work the same.

-I have never experimented with a lower dose. To be honest, I don't recall where I read to use 1g/gal haha. I would imagine that I read that number at least a few times before using it, but there is absolutely a good chance that the optimal dose could be higher or lower and would love to hear anything you find out.

-I like cold crashing NEIPAs and actually think it's pretty important since the heavy dry hop loads tend to leave more particulate floating around. That said, many prefer not to. I recommend trying it out and seeing what you prefer.

-i tend to carbonate NEIPAs on the lower end, around 2.1-2.3vol instead.of the standard 2.4-2.5 I like with my regular pales and ipas. Use brewersfriend calculator. If you cold crash, you need to factor that in. Overall I find that if I cold crash to 1-2 degrees c, adding .2 vol seems to be accurate. So 2.3 in the calculator gives me 2.5 vols. This is all just based on my feeling drinking them, so I could be off.

Sorry for the long-winded response!!!

Cheers

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

@Taket_al_Tauro one last question.... or two, or more

Ferment temp? My ambient temp in basement is around 64 degrees - do you crash at all? I have a porch down there would take it to around 45 degrees if needed, but I am reading no crashes for NEIPAs.

Bottling / Carbonation temp? I generally warm up a basement bedroom to around 70-72 degrees. Open a bottle after week, to check, and Its usually easily drinkable by then. If i feel it is ready, should I refrigerate the lot? Doubt they will all fit in our spare fridge with my 2 ambers, and lagers. SWMBO would also shoot me. Could dump bottles out in the garage. 40 degrees out there or less.

What CO2 volume you aim for? Do you prime a little higher sugar since you fill bottles? Lower?

For my 6 gallon beers I rather just throw 3/4 cup of sugar in the bottle bucket after boiling and gently stir. I have yet to weigh sugar. Estimate for around 2.5 CO2 on the calculator and go from there. Never entirely sure the exact volume after trub anyway. Do you use regular table sugar?

Ok 10 questions

PS - just had a sample to do a gravity. Man that stuff tastes super tasty. I'd drink it as is carbonated. What a bite its got. Colour is pale yellow. Hardly any colour of note. Forgot to take SG reading. Never really my intent.

Hey I'm no NEIPA expert , I've just got one under my belt so-far. There are people on this forum that are way more knowledgeable than me when it comes to this style...(and other styles as well, for that matter ;-)). Still, let me try and answer your questions:

I think that ambient basement temp should work. Fermentation should not get too hot even without temp control. If you have the possibility to raise the temperature to above 70 for a few days when fermentation subsides, this won’t hurt… it has become my SOP for all my beers. Afterwards let the temp get back to your basement temp for the dry hopping. I usually wait a few weeks before dry hopping and then packaging, to give the yeast time to settle and so on...but I know most people go much faster for this style. I think it is up to you to find outr what works best for you. As I said earlier, I do not cold crash because I have a feeling that with my current rather low-tech approach to fermentation and packaging, a cold crash would do more harm than good (specifically, it would increase oxidation risk). To prevent hop matter from getting into my bottles, I run the beer through a monofilament filter that I place in my bottling bucket,

@tyrub42, as I understand from your posts, you do have a CO2 tank. You also mentioned that you cold crash. I would be interested to hear if you do anything to prevent air suckback during the cold crash? Do you hook up your CO2 tank to your fermenter to create some head pressure?

A bottle priming temp of 70-72 is fine. I would also test one bottle at about 1 week, and if carbonation is OK then I would refrigerate them all immediately if you have the possibility. Do not take risks with SWMBO, put those bottles in that garage at 40 F….unless it sees some large temperature swings between day and night, you’ve got a perfect place for cold storing your beers!

I usually condition in my apartment at about 73 F, and I found that it takes no more than one week to have fully carbonated bottles. Then they go either in the fridge or in the basement, depending on available space. This does not mean that they are already in their best shape for drinking after just one week. They will need at least another two weeks to hit their prime.

I aim for ca. 2.5 vols of CO2 for this style. I use regular table sugar.

Good luck!

 

[Nubiwan]

@Taket_al_Tauro well, my post is specific to bottling NEIPA and, expert or not, your response seems my best bet. I thank you all for the assistance. Have plans to up my dry hop bill a bit, add some AA, fill them bottles to the brim. Will post some pix and perhaps do some 30-60 day comparison,for the record. For the record, my initial AA research revealed a teaspoon or 3.4 grams per 5 gallons ..... i will need to confirm further. Does that needto be diluted in anyway?

Since my timeline is christmas, im going to shorten my ferment period, which many report as favourable for the style anyway. Might do a pseudo crash of say 50 degrees for 24 hours. Thinking i might use a blow off contraption to mitigate o2 in the cold crash. Not sure that would work. Something i need to search up on. More questions-doh!

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

@Taket_al_Tauro well, my post is specific to bottling NEIPA and, expert or not, your response seems my best bet. I thank you all for the assistance. Have plans to up my dry hop bill a bit, add some AA, fill them bottles to the brim. Will post some pix and perhaps do some 30-60 day comparison,for the record. For the record, my initial AA research revealed a teaspoon or 3.4 grams per 5 gallons ..... i will need to confirm further. Does that needto be diluted in anyway?

Since my timeline is christmas, im going to shorten my ferment period, which many report as favourable for the style anyway. Might do a pseudo crash of say 50 degrees for 24 hours. Thinking i might use a blow off contraption to mitigate o2 in the cold crash. Not sure that would work. Something i need to search up on. More questions-doh!

Sounds good man!
Just pay attention as not to fill the bottles to the very brim. You'll need to leave something like 0.5 cm of headspace (sorry I'm too lazy to look up the conversion in inches), because the volume of the liquid will expand a bit due to CO2 production. I know that from experience...luckily no bottle bombs but I had beer spill out from the bottle cap.

The AA dissolves easily in water. I would just dilute it in a bit of water and add that solution to the beer. If you add it at bottling you can dissolve it into your priming solution.

 

[tyrub42]

Hey I'm no NEIPA expert , I've just got one under my belt so-far. There are people on this forum that are way more knowledgeable than me when it comes to this style...(and other styles as well, for that matter ;-)). Still, let me try and answer your questions:

I think that ambient basement temp should work. Fermentation should not get too hot even without temp control. If you have the possibility to raise the temperature to above 70 for a few days when fermentation subsides, this won’t hurt… it has become my SOP for all my beers. Afterwards let the temp get back to your basement temp for the dry hopping. I usually wait a few weeks before dry hopping and then packaging, to give the yeast time to settle and so on...but I know most people go much faster for this style. I think it is up to you to find outr what works best for you. As I said earlier, I do not cold crash because I have a feeling that with my current rather low-tech approach to fermentation and packaging, a cold crash would do more harm than good (specifically, it would increase oxidation risk). To prevent hop matter from getting into my bottles, I run the beer through a monofilament filter that I place in my bottling bucket,

@tyrub42, as I understand from your posts, you do have a CO2 tank. You also mentioned that you cold crash. I would be interested to hear if you do anything to prevent air suckback during the cold crash? Do you hook up your CO2 tank to your fermenter to create some head pressure?

A bottle priming temp of 70-72 is fine. I would also test one bottle at about 1 week, and if carbonation is OK then I would refrigerate them all immediately if you have the possibility. Do not take risks with SWMBO, put those bottles in that garage at 40 F….unless it sees some large temperature swings between day and night, you’ve got a perfect place for cold storing your beers!

I usually condition in my apartment at about 73 F, and I found that it takes no more than one week to have fully carbonated bottles. Then they go either in the fridge or in the basement, depending on available space. This does not mean that they are already in their best shape for drinking after just one week. They will need at least another two weeks to hit their prime.

I aim for ca. 2.5 vols of CO2 for this style. I use regular table sugar.

Good luck!

Hey sorry I just saw this! I use plastic fermenters so I can seal them before crashing and they just bend inward instead of sucking air back.

But if I gelatin the beer I'll co2 purge after adding it.

So far results are good. A DIPA I made two months ago just got gold in Hong Kong despite its age and the week in 80 degree shipping

 

[Nubiwan]

So, thought id post the final slightly modified recipe. Few changes from the original posted.

I dont do a steady mash. Simply let temp drift from 158 to mid 140s over 90 minutes. Do this with all my beers. i suspect the result is more of a dry beer.

On recipe below, i have 24 liters in fermentor had an og of 1.050 and its dropped to 1.008. So just north of 5.2 % which was my aim. All my beers drop under 1.008-06 range with this mash process.

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05 - i got the notes to change, but it was too late, and all i had on hand. Mash was underway already.

Hops
0.5 oz of falconers for 10 minutes before flame out........ i just could not not bitter a little

Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop: SG was around 1.012-010 at day 5, so thats when i dry hopped.
2 oz citra
2 oz mosaic
.5 oz galaxy
1 Level teaspoon of Ascorbic Acid diluted in cooled down boiled water 3-4 grams

Will bottle for 2.5 co2 volumes


Everything goes into the fermentor. Trub, the lot. No filtering. I do this with my ambers and reds, and have had no issues. Not sure its a great idea with a neipa, and all those whirlpooled hops. I wasnt really thinking ahead. Hoping i dont get a bitter bomb. I feel i might.

Pictures and report to come in a coupke of weeks i estimate.....

 

[tyrub42]

So, thought id post the final slightly modified recipe. Few changes from the original posted.

I dont do a steady mash. Simply let temp drift from 158 to mid 140s over 90 minutes. Do this with all my beers. i suspect the result is more of a dry beer.

On recipe below, i have 24 liters in fermentor had an og of 1.050 and its dropped to 1.008. So just north of 5.2 % which was my aim. All my beers drop under 1.008-06 range with this mash process.

Grains:
5 # Canadian 2-row
5 # Golden Promise
1 # Wheat
1 # Flaked Barley
1 # Flaked Oats
1/4 # Honey Malt

Yeast
US-05 - i got the notes to change, but it was too late, and all i had on hand. Mash was underway already.

Hops
0.5 oz of falconers for 10 minutes before flame out........ i just could not not bitter a little

Whirlpool around 160 let stand for 20-30 minutes - stir? (is stirring key)
1.5 oz Citra
.5 oz Galaxy
1 oz mosaic

Dry Hop: SG was around 1.012-010 at day 5, so thats when i dry hopped.
2 oz citra
2 oz mosaic
.5 oz galaxy
1 Level teaspoon of Ascorbic Acid diluted in cooled down boiled water 3-4 grams

Will bottle for 2.5 co2 volumes


Everything goes into the fermentor. Trub, the lot. No filtering. I do this with my ambers and reds, and have had no issues. Not sure its a great idea with a neipa, and all those whirlpooled hops. I wasnt really thinking ahead. Hoping i dont get a bitter bomb. I feel i might.

Pictures and report to come in a coupke of weeks i estimate.....

You'll be fine with all the hops in the fermenter. Just will have a lot of trub in the bottom so less volume overall. Looks like a nice juicy IPA. Won't be a proper NE but that's not important. What's important is that it tastes good

 

[Nubiwan]

 

[Nubiwan]

Wasn't sure how to resize these images (above). Been exactly 2 weeks from grain to glass. Put two bottles in the fridge last night. One filled near top, and this one to where I normally would fill a bottle. No apparent signs of oxidation at this stage, which you would not expect. Its a grey day outside, so it is not sparkling in the glass, as you can see. I could wait for a sunny day, I supposed. Colour is the nice golden orange haze you'd expect in a NEIPA, and the SRM for the grains used.

I am no connoisseur of beer flavour in that I cannot really relate it as others do on the forum. My beer always tastes so bloody fresh compared with anything I buy at a bar. Not sure how to explain it. Most of the draught beer I buy at bars is a minor disappointment - compared to what I make myself. Is that normal? Does everyone think their own beer is great?

There is a bitterness to this IPA that is not unpleasant, but I reckon many might not appreciate in the style. I attribute this to the trub transferred into the fermenter, and the residual hops from whirlpool. Perhaps next time I could filter it better, but to be honest, Its beer, and for me, beer requires some bitterness. I am not sure it suits the style all the same. A healthy hop aroma at the glass, and if I bought this beer in a can, or at a bar, I'd say it tastes bloody great. A success IMHO, and in short time. Cant argue after 2 weeks.

The rest of my experiment will be to see how it holds up in the bottle for a few weeks. I am not sure I will have much left after Christmas, so the test will be rather short lived. Might keep a couple aside for 6-8 weeks, to bookend this thread. I did throw the dregs of the bottling pale in a half bottle, so be interesting to see that when opened, in terms of how it oxidizes. I'll post more pics.

First impression is that this is a great tasting IPA. I'd recommend the grain bill and hop schedule I used. Be great in the summer sun. Nice and hop lively, and a little bitter kick. Hope you get the gist of all that. Very happy with it. Wonder how it will "age". More to follow.

My glass is empty now....... Should I go open another? Hmmmmm

 

[Nubiwan]

I produced just over 2 cases (42 x 15 oz bottles) of beer from this batch. I've taken once case and stuck it in my rear porch where ambient temps will be around 40-50 degrees, so it will keep cool. The remainder will be at around 65 degrees in my basement. I read somewhere that it would be important to refrigerate a bottled NEIPA once carbonation is achieved. This will give me a couple of oxidation benchmarks for the same batch. One case at regular room temp. One kept cooler. More to come.

 

[Nubiwan]

Some outdoorsy shots of my creation

 

[Nubiwan]

More images of progress. As indicated earlier (Maybe), I only half filled the last bottle in the batch to get a decent idea of how the Ascorbic Acid might hold up. There is a fair bit of crud in that bottle too. Other bottles in picture show a bottle with minimal head space, and one with a regular neck space.

Brew day notes indicate started mash on November 19, Bottle November 30. So, these bottles are into their 5th week, just.

I think I can detect a very slight dark tint in the half filled bottle, but its not easy to tell. My poured glass is from one of the minimal headspace bottles. Difficult to tell the colour change in the dark light, when I actually poured it. Does it look greyer?

Think I mentioned earlier that this effort has a pretty high (unmeasured IBU). Its quite bitter, as my hops and trub all went into the fermenter. I only used a very small amount of bittering hop in the boils.

The hop aroma is still pleasant, and the IPA kick is essentially the same as I experienced in the first couple of weeks, though it is very difficult to be precise comparing tastes when sampling so far apart.

If I was served this beer in a bar, I'd like it, but if I made it again, I'd find a way to reduce trub in the fermenter, or bag the hops to remove them. I'm sure it is too bitter for the style, and can only imagine the trub transfer was the reason.

Think it is fair to say that, at this point, no discernable oxidation (based on colour) is apparent in the bottles. So far so good for the Ascorbic Acid.

This was my original colour.....

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

Holy sheez I almost don't believe my eyes that even the half filled bottle is not yet showing some apparent signs of darkening...would then be interested to hear how it tastes compared to the rest...

Concerning the too bitter taste. Although dumping all the trub in the fermenter may not be ideal, I'm not sure this is the cause of your increased bitterness. I'd rather suspect this is more of an issue with too high of a boil pH. I know you said you have some good, low alkalinity water for brewing. However it might still be the case that your boil pH is a little too high and that will extract more bitterness from the hops.

 

[Nubiwan]

Holy sheez I almost don't believe my eyes that even the half filled bottle is not yet showing some apparent signs of darkening...would then be interested to hear how it tastes compared to the rest...

Concerning the too bitter taste. Although dumping all the trub in the fermenter may not be ideal, I'm not sure this is the cause of your increased bitterness. I'd rather suspect this is more of an issue with too high of a boil pH. I know you said you have some good, low alkalinity water for brewing. However it might still be the case that your boil pH is a little too high and that will extract more bitterness from the hops.

@Taket_al_Tauro - think you might be right, though I dont experience large bitterness in my ambers. Perhaps the taste of amber just compliments the bitter. The key difference would be the hop schedule is rather larger than it might be for my amber.

Any advice on lowering pH? Gypsum? Calcium? Like to keep things as simple as possible. My city water chart is published once a year, so pretty sure mineral levels would also fluctuate (Certainly through winter/summer/spring etc.). But worth a try for a teaspoon of something here and there.

 

[Taket_al_Tauro]

The key difference would be the hop schedule is rather larger than it might be for my amber

Yes that's the thing. In a proper hoppy beer you would throw way more hops in the kettle than you would in an amber, right?
The huge late hop additions bear the potential to extract significantly more bitterness. And if the wort pH is too high, it will extract more of the "harsher" type bitterness. From what I understand this kind of bitterness can be extracted at least in part also at sub-isomerization temperatures (such as in a hop stand at or below 170 F). ...and large hop additions also tend to increase wort pH.

Any advice on lowering pH? Gypsum? Calcium?

Use acid to lower the pH. Either lactic or phosphoric acid.
Gypsum is good for adding calcium and sulphates, but it isn't very efficient as a means for lowering pH per se.

 

[a_gunslinger]

Little late but ... I find NEIPA easier. Not worried about clarity, and the recipes are pretty foolproof. I would highly recommend (after you try all the other recipes) to also try this one. One of those recipes that turned out sell well for me I brew it every few batches. TEchnically a double HAZY IPA but the grain bill matches most IPAs. White wheat/flaked oats/and naked oats are the key:

Mikerphone Check 1, 2 IPA Recipe

Mikerphone Check 1, 2 IPA Recipe

 

[Nubiwan]

Couple of recent pictures. Sleeve shot taken last night. Colour still holding up strong. Taste was excellent, and I am thinking the same beer can taste different depending on your mood, time of day, what you have eaten. This beer has hardly changed at all since the first one I cracked 6 weeks ago.

I reckon I have about 10 pints left, so my experiment will really only last perhaps 90 days by the time they are all gone.

In terms of the Ascorbic Acid experiment, I'd say it has been a success to date.

 

[Nubiwan]

My final instalment. All my NEIPA has gone save for a 1.5 Liter I'm saving for this weekend, or next. I cant justify opening on a week night when I only have a pint.

Anyway, these are the last 2 bottles I filled from my bottling bucket. My oxygen control, throughout, would be listed as nothing different from that which I do most my beers. I did take a little extra care not to swirl the sugar solution in the bottle bucket too vigorously, but I felt compelled to stir it to get a decent mix of sugars for bottling. My carbonation was consistent throughout.

Picture are of a bottle that was filled, and the last bottle that got just over half full, so retained a pretty sizable headspace. All in all, there was not a great deal of difference in colours. Even the half filled one is only slightly off colour - well, in my opinion.

As for taste, the full bottle tasted as all the others before. Good solid hop flavour and aroma. The half bottle, I ditched after a couple of tastes. It wasn't horrible, but there was something flatter about it, as you can se by lack of head, and it just tasted like any beer might with that much head space. The hop flavour was still present, and if I had managed to fill it, the only qualm might have been the ton of sediment I took on. I think it would have tasted fine. So this is 8-9 weeks in, if my memory serves. Think I bottled November 29th. If I did a bolder NEIPA than this, which my next would be, then I'd definitely use the Ascorbic Acid, as it appeared to work for me.

I plane to make a West Coast IPA next week, so I think I'll be using the AA for that too. Questions and comments welcomed.

Hope this post has helped folks decide w.r.t Ascorbic Acid in bottling an IPA. My previous IPA's had all suffered a degradation in aroma after perhaps 4-6 weeks. This one would have lasted significantly longer in the bottle, is my guess.

Pictures taken at night, so it skews the hue of the beer IMHO. I switched bottles and glasses around in case the light affected the colour, and simply for reference. As for leaving a smaller headspace in my bottles, which I did kinda half and half to try, while it might help, I found no difference in any of the bottles I opened. Taste, carbonation and aroma were all consistent.

 

[SRJHops]

I know it's huge, but check out this thread American IPA - "Northeast" style IPA
and in particular search for posts by SRJHops - he worked hard at bottling NEIPAs and I believe he had success (if I remember correctly)

Thanks for the mention! Another trick that I am going to start trying is to add some ascorbic acid. It's 4 grams for a 5 gallon batch. You can add it to the mash or at flameout. Some people say you should also add .2 grams campden if you didn't already use some to treat your water. Campden is also an antioxidant.