Need some water critique.

[Schnitzengiggle]

I have been building my RO water for a while now, maybe past 7-8 brews. I brew 10 gal batches, and for the Thankgiving holiday, I will be brewing an Oatmeal Stout. It seems like my Mash pH is a bit low, and I know the dark grains are going to take it lower. I was trying to target London's water profile, and I got pretty close except for the pH (which for London is supposed to be around 8).

Do any of you water science guys see any problems with my RA, pH, and Cl:SO4, wit this recipe?

FWIW, I will probably change the yeast to WLP007, due to my upping the gravity on this recipe recently.

Here is the recipe with water adjustments:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 13.61 gal
Post Boil Volume: 12.48 gal
Batch Size (fermenter): 11.00 gal
Bottling Volume: 11.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.065 SG
Estimated Color: 34.7 SRM
Estimated IBU: 35.3 IBUs
Brewhouse Efficiency: 84.00 %
Est Mash Efficiency: 91.6 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
17 lbs 6.7 oz Mild Malt (4.0 SRM) Grain 2 74.5 %
1 lbs 4.2 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 4 5.4 %
1 lbs 4.2 oz Toasted Malt (27.0 SRM) Grain 5 5.4 %
12.8 oz Crystal, Dark (Simpsons) (80.0 SRM) Grain 6 3.4 %
12.8 oz Roasted Barley (Simpsons) (550.0 SRM) Grain 7 3.4 %
1 lbs 13.3 oz Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 3 7.8 %
4.41 oz Fuggles [5.40 %] - Boil 60.0 min Hop 8 35.3 IBUs
1.8 pkg London Ale (White Labs #WLP013) [35.49 m Yeast 9 -
11.00 gal London, England Water 1 -


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 23 lbs 6.0 oz
----------------------------
Name Description Step Temperat Step Time
Mash In Add 30.51 qt of water at 168.9 F 153.0 F 75 min

Sparge: Drain mash tun, Batch sparge with 2 steps (4.41gal, 4.41gal) of 168.0 F water
Notes:
------
Water Adjustments
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
CaCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.45 / 9
RO or distilled %: 100% / 100%

Total Grain (lb): 23.37
Non-Roasted Spec. Grain: 0.8
Roasted Grain: 2.63
Beer Color (SRM): 34.7

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0.0
CaCl2: 2 / 2.4
MgSO4: 5.2 / 6.3
NaHCO3: 8.4 / 10.1
NaCl: 1.25 / 1.510067114
CaCO3: 5 / 0.0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 90 / 52
Mg: 17 / 17
Na: 99 / 99
Cl: 61 / 61
SO4: 72 / 72
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.85 / 0.85

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 264
RA: 190
Estimated pH (room temp): 5.34

 

[944play]

I would not try to replicate a historical profile, and definitely not a water pH! Like the sticky says, I start with RO and add calcium as CaCl2 and/or CaSO4. Check mash pH. If it's 5.7 or over, add acid. In the unlikely event it's under 5.1, maybe think about possibly adding a touch of bicarbonate.

I don't know what gave you a pH of 5.34 with that water. EZ estimates ~5.6 with RO on that grainbill!

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

I would not try to replicate a historical profile, and definitely not a water pH! Like the sticky says, I start with RO and add calcium as CaCl2 and/or CaSO4. Check mash pH. If it's 5.7 or over, add acid. In the unlikely event it's under 5.1, maybe think about possibly adding a touch of bicarbonate.

I don't know what gave you a pH of 5.34 with that water. EZ estimates ~5.6 with RO on that grainbill!

I'm using EZ 2.0, and without any salts additions and 7.75g of mash water, 8.7g of sparge, and total GB of 23.37, 0.87 crystal, 2.63 roasted, and SRM of 34.7 I get a pH of 5.13, and of course 3 out of the 5 minerals are below recommendations.

How are you getting pH 5.6?

 

[944play]

It is a puzzlement.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

I had no idea 3.0 was out, son-of-a-bitch, now I have to re-do my calculations!

Thanks for the heads up.

EDIT

Alright new calculations to recreate London's water:
Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.75 / 8.7
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 23.4

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 3.65 / 4.1
MgSO4: 5.4 / 6.1
NaHCO3: 10.6 / 11.9
CaCO3: 2.5 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 68 / 50
Mg: 17 / 17
Na: 99 / 99
Cl: 60 / 60
SO4: 72 / 72
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.84 / 0.84

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 257
RA: 198
Estimated pH: 5.28
(room temp)

Still A fairly low mash pH, but the CL:SO4 is "balanced".

 

[ajdelange]

NaHCO3: 10.6 / 11.9
CaCO3: 2.5 / 0

Still A fairly low mash pH, but the CL:SO4 is "balanced".

And not very likely with that much bicarbonate and carbonate. I'd hold most of those out, check mash pH and add in as much of them as you need to get to the pH you want.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

Unfortunately, I have yet to invest in a pH meter

There is a huge addition of NaHCO3, which was my main concern. The problem is my Na should be about 99 or so, so other than adding NaCL how do I up my Na?

Why was NaCl removed from the EZ water spreadsheet between v2.0 and 3.0.1?

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

This is the updated Water Profile from EZ Water 3.0.1

Starting Water (ppm):
Ca: 0
Mg: 0
Na: 0
Cl: 0
SO4: 0
HCO3: 0

Mash / Sparge Vol (gal): 7.75 / 8.7
RO or distilled %: 0% / 0%

Total Grain (lb): 23.4

Adjustments (grams) Mash / Boil Kettle:
CaSO4: 0 / 0
CaCl2: 3.65 / 4.1
MgSO4: 5.4 / 6.1
NaHCO3: 10.6 / 11.9
CaCO3: 2.5 / 0
Lactic Acid (ml): 0
Sauermalz (oz): 0

Mash Water / Total water (ppm):
Ca: 68 / 50
Mg: 17 / 17
Na: 99 / 99
Cl: 60 / 60
SO4: 72 / 72
Cl to SO4 Ratio: 0.84 / 0.84

Alkalinity (CaCO3): 257
RA: 198
Estimated pH: 5.28

Why is there so much NaHCO3, necessary? I need my salt addition to be high ~99, and the addition is supposed to be raising my mash pH?

I don't want to add all of this NaHCO3 if I can avoid it.

Can anyone help me put together a water profile such as London's wih a higher pH while using RO?

London's Water Profile:
London:
Calcium 52
Magnesium 16
Sodium 99
Chloride 60
Sulfate 77
Alkalinity 156

 

[ajdelange]

I guess the question would be "Why go you want so much sodium?" Are you seeking a salty tasting beer? If so sodium chloride is the obvious way to go but sodium sulfate would be an alternative. Don't think I've ever seen that sold in a home brew shop though.

I'd just go with half a tsp each of gypsum and calcium chloride per 5 gal. With your grain bill the pH ought to be just about right but I'd feel better knowing you checked it with a meter.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

I guess I am trying to create a water style that is more classic for stout/porter, and since Porters and stouts originated in Britain, I was hoping to use a water profile that was going to allow my dark and roasted grains to drop the pH of the water sufficiently.

pH of London water is estimated to be 8.0, and with a nice amount of dark/roasted grain, the pH level would fall to an acceptable level.

I could add NaCl to up my salt, but that lowers pH slightly, how the heck am I to raise the pH of this water?

 

[ajdelange]

If you give me the ion profile and pH of the water you want to synthesize I can come up with a synthesis for you provided that the profile is a physically realizable one and many aren't. If the one you give me is not physically realizable I can come up with profiles that are as close as possible to the target in the log rmse sense (weighted to favor the ions you want to match most closely). But part of the required additions will be carbonic acid and as you can't measure that out you would have to dissolve the soluble salts, suspend the chalk and bubble CO2 through the water until the chalk dissolves and the desired pH is reached. This obviously requires a pH meter, is a lot of trouble and is seldom justified unless you are determined to be as authentic as possible at the possible expense of having a beer that is not as good as it could be if you adopt a simpler approach.

I think you may be confusing mash pH and source water pH. Source water pH really doesn't matter that much as long as the mash pH is set correctly. Almost all the required information about a water's alkalinity is carried in the reported alkalinity value. IOW it doesn't matter if the source water is pH 6 or pH 8 as long as its alkalinity is neither too much to stress the buffering capacity of the malt (puling the pH high) nor too little to form a buffer at the proper mash pH in grists with a lot of acid. Eyeballing your grist bill and based on my limited experience in brewing stouts and some tests done in the lab RO water with no added alkalinity should give you an acceptable pH. But where dark malts are involved one never knows for sure because they are so variable and base malts can be quite variable too and that's why the use of a pH meter is so important in cases like this one. Assuming I'm right then your only concern is to get the stylistic ions correct mainly to have enough sulfate for the hop character you desire. That was the basis of my recommendation which is taken from the Primer.

Edit: In reading back I see that you did give a target ion profile. This profile does not balance at pH 8 i.e. water with the specified ion content cannot exist at pH 8. It can exist at pH 4.96 but would have to be under considerable pressure to keep the requisite carbon dioxide in solution. IOW, this is not a reasonable profile.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

Sounds like I'm investing in a pH meter. I have had good results brewing with tap water filtered through a PUR water filter for my stouts, so to simplify my next brew day, I think I will go that route.

I will definitely invest in a pH meter for future brews, to eliminate the guessing game.

Thanks for all of your knowledge on the subject, I have been successful building water for IPA's and lighter beers, but haven't really tried it for darker beers, like I said I have had success with my filtered tap water.

I might be making my process more difficult than necessary for stouts.

 

[mabrungard]

There is a basic problem in the OP's London profile. It has far too much mineralization and will not produce a good result. I shudder to ask where it came from, but I know there is a LOT of crap information on water profiles on the internet and even in print. A majority of the water profile information regurgitated in these sources is recycled by people who have no idea what water chemistry is and what the truth or error in the profiles are. GIGO.

To the OP, I suggest that you consult Bru'n Water for suggestions on appropriate water profiles. They are at least close and they don't lead you down a dead end. And as was mentioned above, using a historic water profile may not be the best way to go in the first place.

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

Yeah, the London water profile is from the the Sticky in this forum, and also from BeerSmith 2.0's water profile, and I verified these via websearch @.uk.

I know very little about Chemistry, I am not a chemist, nor a hydrologist, nor a scientist, hence my request for assistance.

ajdelange - was very helpful with his comments and suggestions, I am still torn about using his recommendations for stout using RO. Since I have had good results brewing stouts with my PUR filtered tap water I may go ahead and go that route.

I live in an area just outside of our city limits, and my tap water comes from rainwater runoff from a nearby mountain that is eventually deposited into an aquifer which is pumped into the homes in this area via 4 wells.

Last time I contacted my water company they gave me the profile for the water. From the information he gave me they only publish comprehensive test to the public every 3 years, however, the gentleman I spoke to from the departments lab, claimed the water historically has changed very little over time. Yet, he did say that the increased construction , and housing developments in this area can definitely affect the water's profile at my tap.

So, my thought process is thus:
1. RO costs me money (no home RO system)
2. I have to drive out of my way to get 20 gallons of RO water.
3. Tap water is readily available
4. I have Campden tablets on hand
5. Roasted grains can easily overpower any off-flavors from water.
6. However, I have no clue of pH of my tap water.
7. Apparently, it was around 7.0 during the local utilities last testing
8. I'm lazy.
9. Probably going to use tap water treated with Campden
10. Did I mention I'm lazy?

 

[mabrungard]

With the preponderance of misinformation on the web, it is easy to take the frequency of data's citation as an indicator of fact. Not always true. I did post a diatribe in the Brewing Water Profiles and Tools sticky on this forum, but its buried in the middle of the multiple pages of that thread.

I know that AJ will be the first to tell you if the finished beer tastes better with one water source over the other, use it. Alkalinity and its importance to brewing for brewing dark beers is supported by hundreds of years of brewing practice and by the relatively simple grain acidity/water alkalinity model that is incorporated into Bru'n Water and other water sheets. Alkalinity has its place in good brewing.

In my opinion, the Water Primer does a great job of helping brewers make good beer without the water being a significant detriment. In the case of light colored styles, I'll say that the Primer can help a brewer make great beer. And while the Primer can lead a brewer to make a good dark beer, the absence of alkalinity is more likely to negatively affect the taste and perception of the beer. Many great dark beers have to have 'adequate' alkalinity in their water to counter the grain acidity and mellow the taste.

Bru'n Water was created to help brewers like the OP that want to use their tap water if possible. Knowing what that tap water consists of is a key to using any water advise. The Water Primer properly side steps that knowledge deficiency by inserting a more known RO or distilled water profile into the mix and building from there. Its a good approach, but may not be for everyone. I could not imagine going out and buying 20 gal of water for brewing and fully support the OP's reluctance to do that.

The OP mentions water pH. Please recognize that water pH is nearly meaningless in brewing. The mineral profile in the brewing water in conjunction with the mash grist sets the mash pH and therefore the mineral profile is far more meaningful to brewers.

I'd say the OP is ready to go with his brewing and it may be appropriate to continue with tap water, but that really depends on that water. Recognize that the tap water may be mineralized too much in some ions and that could affect the resulting beer. Dilution is an important option. At least that holds the possibility of reducing that 20 gal water buying trip somewhat! Campden tablets are a good way to remove chlorine and chloramine.

Enjoy.