Need some help with a sour beer(Gose)

[BrewinSoldier]

Hey guys! I need a little help for those of you familiar with sours. I'm in the middle of brewing my second sour. The first one turned out awesome and the only thing I did differently(other than grain bill) was that I pitched two packs of wyeast lacto into the first one. The LHBS had packs that were already 5 months old so threw in two packs for the price of one. Worked out well and went from 4.76 mash pH to 3.4 in 3 days(when I opened it up to check it). I also kept that one at 100°F for the 3 days. I got my mash pH for this batch mostly from acidulated malt and a little lactic acid.

This batch my pack of lacto was also 5 months old and I only had one pack. So I decided to also add (2) of the Goodbelly 2.7oz mango plus shots. They were dated use by July 19 2018 and have no idea what the shelf life for these are so don't know if that is fresh or not. Anyways, mash pH for this batch was 4.83. I was told to try 112-115° by someone who regularly does sours so I set the temp to 112° this time around. Well, after 3 days now, my pH hasnt moved at all. This batch I used all lactic acid to get my mash pH to 4.83.

I'm not sure why or what to do at this point. Should I go buy a Goodbelly carton and dump the whole thing in to get the pH to drop? Should I wait and give it more time or should it have dropped by now?

Thanks for the help.

 

[divrack]

Hey guys! I need a little help for those of you familiar with sours. I'm in the middle of brewing my second sour. The first one turned out awesome and the only thing I did differently(other than grain bill) was that I pitched two packs of wyeast lacto into the first one. The LHBS had packs that were already 5 months old so threw in two packs for the price of one. Worked out well and went from 4.76 mash pH to 3.4 in 3 days(when I opened it up to check it). I also kept that one at 100°F for the 3 days. I got my mash pH for this batch mostly from acidulated malt and a little lactic acid.

This batch my pack of lacto was also 5 months old and I only had one pack. So I decided to also add (2) of the Goodbelly 2.7oz mango plus shots. They were dated use by July 19 2018 and have no idea what the shelf life for these are so don't know if that is fresh or not. Anyways, mash pH for this batch was 4.83. I was told to try 112-115° by someone who regularly does sours so I set the temp to 112° this time around. Well, after 3 days now, my pH hasnt moved at all. This batch I used all lactic acid to get my mash pH to 4.83.

I'm not sure why or what to do at this point. Should I go buy a Goodbelly carton and dump the whole thing in to get the pH to drop? Should I wait and give it more time or should it have dropped by now?

Thanks for the help.

hi, you don't mention much about what and when you were pitching the lacto into, but my advise is to keep calm and let it go. for me sours are things you should just forget about for a good while unless you're doing kettle sour type stuff, which maybe you are? 5 months doesn't seem too old to be viable. normally you can sour a whole mash with a handful of grain so. I don't suppose the high temp could be overheating localised areas and pasteurizing it slowly?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

hi, you don't mention much about what and when you were pitching the lacto into, but my advise is to keep calm and let it go. for me sours are things you should just forget about for a good while unless you're doing kettle sour type stuff, which maybe you are? 5 months doesn't seem too old to be viable. normally you can sour a whole mash with a handful of grain so. I don't suppose the high temp could be overheating localised areas and pasteurizing it slowly?

Yeah you are right. So I'm doing a kettle sour. I believe I have ~7 gallons of wort right now sitting in my Grainfather. I basically did a 90 min mash, then boiled for 10 mins to kill off any bad stuff. Then chilled to 112° and pitched. Purged out really good with co2 and Saran wrapped the lid to keep it in. I went ahead and ordered some of the lacto pills that will be here tomorrow. I kicked the temp down to 100° now as well and if it hasn't dropped by tomorrow evening, I'll try putting 6-7 of the pills in there and see what happens. I have a little competition I'm trying to have this ready by the 22nd. Still debating on whether or not I'm going to add a little pineapple puree to the keg or leave it to style.

 

[divrack]

I guess I'd have expected movement by now in that case. does the grain father maintain temp by recirculation and heating? perhaps it gets too hot for a brief time when it's in contact with the heater at that high a temperature and is scorching the bacteria, effectively pasteurising it. you could always just chuck in some grain although you will be dealing with some other guys too. check out the milk the funk page on kettle souring
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Wort_Souring
they recommend filling the headspace with co2 to decrease off flavors.
115 isn't too high though in general though. perhaps someone with a grain father can tell you if there is any reason why it might be overheating in selected areas?
PS I don't suppose you added any hops?

 

[cactusgarrett]

I understand the Goodbelly shots to be comprised of L. Plantarum. This strain prefers cooler temps, but I don't think it would show no activity at 115°F. divrack brought up a good point - maybe circulation is allowing for spot pasteurization at the source of heat.

I wouldn't add a full carton - I understand some people can start to taste those after 2 shots are added. Nor would I add grains at this point. After a couple days of no activity, you're already susceptible to some nasties grabbing hold, and tossing in grain would only increase those odds. I, personally, would kill the heat & toss in the contents of 4 capsules (for 7gal), provided they come in soon. You're kind of against the clock, now, that it's a few days old with no activity.

 

[IslandLizard]

Here's a good overview from the Milk the Funk wiki, showing the various available lacto strains, their characteristics, and best temp range. For WY5335 (L. buchneri) it mentions that 90F to be ideal for Lactic acid formation. In general 110-115F is too hot for many strains.

For L. Plantarum 90-100F seems to be the about the max, depending on the source.

You don't have any hops in that beer yet, right?

 

[IslandLizard]

I'd say lower the temps to 90-95F and pour in some of that Goodbelly to get her started. Maybe add a few capsules tomorrow. Although the same strain, diversity in flora can't hurt it.

Put that jar with capsules in the fridge they stay much more potent that way. L. Plantarum deteriorates much faster at warmer temps.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I understand the Goodbelly shots to be comprised of L. Plantarum. This strain prefers cooler temps, but I don't think it would show no activity at 115°F. divrack brought up a good point - maybe circulation is allowing for spot pasteurization at the source of heat.

I wouldn't add a full carton - I understand some people can start to taste those after 2 shots are added. Nor would I add grains at this point. After a couple days of no activity, you're already susceptible to some nasties grabbing hold, and tossing in grain would only increase those odds. I, personally, would kill the heat & toss in the contents of 4 capsules (for 7gal), provided they come in soon. You're kind of against the clock, now, that it's a few days old with no activity.

I think I'll try the pills. I ordered them same day shipping from Amazon so they should be here soon. I'm not recirculating because I was afraid of oxygenation (even though I already purged with co2). I do have the capability but last time I didn't circulate either and it worked out perfect. I haven't added any hops yet. I add those after pH had dropped to about 3.2-3.5 and I start the secondary 60 min boil.

 

[IslandLizard]

I think I'll try the pills. I ordered them same day shipping from Amazon so they should be here soon. I'm not recirculating because I was afraid of oxygenation (even though I already purged with co2). I do have the capability but last time I didn't circulate either and it worked out perfect. I haven't added any hops yet. I add those after pH had dropped to about 3.2-3.5 and I start the secondary 60 min boil.

Alright, you've got a plan!
I asked about the hops, just to double check that wasn't the cause.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I'd say lower the temps to 90-95F and pour in some of that Goodbelly to get her started. Maybe add a few capsules tomorrow. Although the same strain, diversity in flora can't hurt it.

Put that jar with capsules in the fridge they stay much more potent that way. L. Plantarum deteriorates much faster at warmer temps.

I actually read the wiki page last night and was checking out everyone's experiences with the different forms of adding lacto. Quite a few people seemed to have had really good luck with just the pills, and they are way cheaper than Wyeast and are still pure with no additives like the Goodbelly.

Unfortunately my truck broke the drag link on Sunday and is getting fixed now so I can't even go to the store. Those pills will be here today so I'll have to try those and cross my fingers. How long do those pills last before they won't be good for making sours? I can only imagine they sit in some warm warehouse at Amazon or anywhere else you order from online.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Here is the article I was finding. Sounds like the guy does commercial brewing as well. He recommends keeping temps at 112° to prevent butyric acid(vomit, rancid milk/cheese).

http://sourbeerblog.com/brewing-gose/

 

[IslandLizard]

Here is the article I was finding. Sounds like the guy does commercial brewing as well. He recommends keeping temps at 112° to prevent butyric acid(vomit, rancid milk/cheese).

http://sourbeerblog.com/brewing-gose/

I just read that, thanks!
I do remember something about using those higher temps to prevent other organisms, such as Clostridium, from interfering and creating a tub of vomit and feet.

If it wasn't temps being too high, maybe that one WY pack was just not very viable anymore. That's why it's good practice to always make starter when using liquid yeast. Not sure why your Goodbelly didn't take over, though.

How accurate is that temp gauge? Maybe it gets much hotter inside, especially on the bottom where the element is.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I just read that, thanks!
I do remember something about using those higher temps to prevent other organisms, such as Clostridium, from interfering and creating a tub of vomit and feet.

If it wasn't temps being too high, maybe that one WY pack was just not very viable anymore. That's why it's good practice to always make starter when using liquid yeast. Not sure why your Goodbelly didn't take over, though.

How accurate is that temp gauge? Maybe it gets much hotter inside, especially on the bottom where the element is.

It's an interesting read for sure. The temp is really accurate. The way the Grainfather works with the new controller is that it only powers the heating element on at a certain power level. The temp probe is about 3" or so from the bottom. I actually should check the temps at the top with my therma pen. I've checked it while recirculating and it's dead on top and bottom. Since I'm not recirculating this one, it may be off. I'll check later today when I add the pills.

I usually always make a starter but I wasn't aware you could with lacto. I figured it was more of a bug than a yeast so didn't know it would react like normal yeast would in a starter. With the price of these pills though and convenience, I'll probably just go with these from now on. $18 for a single pack of liquid lacto hurts. Lol

Like you said though, I'm also curious as to why the Goodbelly didn't take over. I added those in to supplement the older pack of lacto that still had a month left. If the pills don't do anything by tomorrow, I'll rebrew it tomorrow and hopefully I can still have it done by the 22nd.

 

[IslandLizard]

Why are you mashing at a pH of 4.83? Just mash normally, at 5.2-5.4, boil 10', chill, than acidify to 4.8 or so before pitching the lacto culture.

Although the hotter temps help to defray nasty off flavors, your CO2 cover should prevent them from forming as they need O2. I'd add some extra CO2 daily for all security. I've also heard of people burping the wort once it had chilled, to help remove any residual O2 lingering after a short boil.

Depending on the age and storage history of the pills, perhaps add a few more of them?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Why are you mashing at a pH of 4.83? Just mash normally, at 5.2-5.4, boil 10', chill, than acidify to 4.8 or so before pitching the lacto culture.

Although the hotter temps help to defray nasty off flavors, your CO2 cover should prevent them from forming as they need O2. I'd add some extra CO2 daily for all security. I've also heard of people burping the wort once it had chilled, to help remove any residual O2 lingering after a short boil.

Depending on the age and storage history of the pills, perhaps add a few more of them?

From what I've read it's a good habit to get mash pH to around 4.5. It does two things. 1. It speeds up the time and makes it easier for the lacto to get the final pH down to 3.2-3.5. Second, and most important, it's a lot harder for unwanted bacteria to breed at the lower pH vs the 5.2-.5.5 area.

For me personally, if I don't get my mash pH dialed in on the first shot after adding the grains, it's almost impossible for me to get it to drop by adding lactic acid after the mash has begun. I use Bru'n water and build all of my water up from scratch using RO water. I always have to shoot lower than it calculates for whatever reason, so if I want a 5.2 pH, I have to calculate it using Bru'n to 5.1 or even lower. It's even worse in my 3 vessel setup. I would assume it's just as hard after the mash is done and I've boiled for 10 mins, but correct me if I'm wrong on that because I've never tried it. What is burping the wort? Never heard of that either but the daily co2 purge definitely isn't a bad idea for a beer that relies on being o2 deficient.

Quick update though. Pills just came so I cracked them open and put 7 of them in and stirred gently before sealing and purging. I did check the pH again before adding the pills and it was at 4.60 pH(so it's dropped a little) but still not nearly enough at the 3.5 day mark. I didn't smell any funky smells and there wasn't any weird stuff floating on top so fingers crossed that these pills do the trick. Of course I forgot to take a temperature before I had stirred it. No worries though at this point it's either going to turn out or it's not. I'll update again once it's all done to let everyone know if it worked or not. Thanks for all the input guys

 

[cactusgarrett]

From what I've read it's a good habit to get mash pH to around 4.5.

This is for after mashing, and right before souring - whether it be the collected wort or the completed mash. Did you actually mash at that pH or did you drop it after mashing and after conversion?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

This is for after mashing, and right before souring - whether it be the collected wort or the completed mash. Did you actually mash at that pH or did you drop it after mashing and after conversion?

I actually mashed at that pH. Actually 4.8 pH which to me was close enough. I just have way too hard of a time trying to drop the pH after the mash. It takes so much lactic acid to get it to start to drop because of the buffers from the grains in the mash. Does it make a difference if you do it before or after as long as you get the pH around 4.5?

 

[BrewinSoldier]

Another quick update. Went ahead and checked it again right now so about 24 hours later. pH has dropped from 4.60 to 3.70 today. It smells a little more like a sour today thankfully. I'll let it go and check it again tonight. If its down to 3.2-3.5 it's getting boiled, chilled, and thrown into the fermenter with some us-05. If not I'll wait till tomorrow.

 

[cactusgarrett]

Does it make a difference if you do it before or after as long as you get the pH around 4.5?

With regards to preventing nasties grabbing hold before souring, it shouldn't make a difference. However, that low of a pH is not close to optimal for a healthy mash. Mash pH "should" be 5.2-5.6 ideally.

Experiments have shown, though, that if your mash pH is too high, the grains and mashing process will naturally attempt to bring it down. The same also goes for too low of a pH - if you started with pH 4.5 before mashing, I would venture a guess that the mashing process brought it up, so you weren't actually at 4.5 post-mash (unless, that is, you measured it to confirm).

 

[universalfrost]

which of the pills did you order on amazon? link please..

ive been using hte mango goodbelly (i can only get the large container) and usually dump the whole quart in with a 7 gallon batch.

 

[cactusgarrett]

I used these, with good results. Just l. plantarum; nothing else.

 

[universalfrost]

how many pills per 6 to 7 gal?

 

[cactusgarrett]

Milk the Funk suggests 7-10 capsules, and I'm seeing people are using 3-4 caps for starters. I used 4 caps in 6gal wort (no starter), myself, which may have been underpitching and will probably use more next time.

 

[BrewinSoldier]

I bought the same ones that cactus linked. I used 7 of them into 7 gallons of wort, only because I had already used 1 pack of wyeast lacto and 2 shots of Goodbelly mango(neither of which really did anything). Going forward, I will start using these pills, no starter, and for 7 gallons of wort I'll probably start with 7 pills, and bump it up to 10 the next time if the 7 doesn't drop it enough. I read someone on milk the funk said 1 pill per gallon of wort. These pills are cheap enough to not have to make a starter.

Another update: Checked the pH again right now it's it's only at 3.5. I don't feel like it's going to go any lower. Started the boil and will finish it off. Next batch I will probably use 10 capsules from the start at 100° and see what happens.