Need I add Chalk or Baking Soda to Dark Beer?

[tennesseean_87]

I'm building from RO and brewing a Schwarzbier. I will be mashing without the dark grains, steeping them separately and adding pre-boil. I'm planning on roughly targeting this profile:

Moderately Alkaline Water
Ca: 80 Mg: 10 Na: 26 SO4: 16 Cl: 33 HCO3: 165 CaCO3: 136


Is there a reason besides mash pH, which won't matter since the dark grains are being separately, to add chalk or baking soda? Or should I just target the appropriate levels of Ca, Mg, Na, SO4, and Cl?

 

[mabrungard]

I wouldn't target anything that mineralized for that beer. The Na, SO4, and Cl levels are OK, but the Ca, Mg, and HCO3 levels are way too high. Target a mash pH of 5.4 without the roast and add it at the end. The HCO3 level is likely going to be zero or less (meaning that you are adding an acid) for that pale grist mash.

 

[ajdelange]

I'm building from RO and brewing a Schwarzbier. I will be mashing without the dark grains, steeping them separately and adding pre-boil. I'm planning on roughly targeting this profile:

Moderately Alkaline Water
Ca: 80 Mg: 10 Na: 26 SO4: 16 Cl: 33 HCO3: 165 CaCO3: 136


Is there a reason besides mash pH, which won't matter since the dark grains are being separately, to add chalk or baking soda?

Yes. To get those mineral levels you will have to add to each gallon:

Salt/Acid/Base mg/gal Synth
CaCl2.2H2O 97.75
NaCl 2.06
MgCl2.6H2O 219.39
CaSO4.2H20 26.19
MgSO4.7H20 117.87
H2O (DI) Liters 0.00
CaCO3 673.85
NaHCO3 356.66
CO2 0.00
HCl 0.00
Ca(OH)2 0.00
Na2CO3.H2O 0.00
Sodium Lactate 0.00
Potassium Lactate 0.00
Lactic 1546.98
Sulfuric 0.00
88% Lactic ml/Gal 1.4587

Lots of chalk and baking soda as sources of sodium and calcium. The reason is because your specified profile's calcium and sodium requirements are way out of line with the sulfate and chloride requirements. The rather large amount of lactic acid is then required to neutralize the alkalinity of the added bicarb and chalk. It seems almost every profile people are posting these days has this problem. Reduce the calcium and sodium or find another better proportioned profile.

Or should I just target the appropriate levels of Ca, Mg, Na, SO4, and Cl?

You can't.

Note that if you add the acid specified above the synthesized water pH will be 5.4 and the water's alkalinity will be 0 wrt that pH.

If you brew without the dark grains your mash is going to have a larger proton deficit that it would if you included the dark grains and so you will have to add more acid that the calculated amount for the water but if you do that mash pH should come out OK. But at the conclusion you add the dark grains with their proton surfeits. This will drive wort pH low (which may be your intention) but I'd keep an eye on that aspect of it.

 

[tennesseean_87]

As I look at the page where I got this some pieces of the water chemistry puzzle are coming together. There is another listing for the same recipe which uses CO2 dissolved chalk and it targets lower numbers, I guess because the numbers I listed are given with the assumption that not all the chalk will dissolve.

It seems like you're saying the addition of carbonates is only for mash pH, not flavor, and therefore it would be pointless to add them during the boil. Would this idea hold even if my mash pH were lower (mashing a pils and capping half with darker malts to make my Schwarzbier )? Thanks for your help. I really feel like I am in over my head here since I have just used A j's primer heretofore.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Yes. To get those mineral levels you will have to add to each gallon:

Salt/Acid/Base mg/gal Synth
CaCl2.2H2O 97.75
NaCl 2.06
MgCl2.6H2O 219.39
CaSO4.2H20 26.19
MgSO4.7H20 117.87
H2O (DI) Liters 0.00
CaCO3 673.85
NaHCO3 356.66
CO2 0.00
HCl 0.00
Ca(OH)2 0.00
Na2CO3.H2O 0.00
Sodium Lactate 0.00
Potassium Lactate 0.00
Lactic 1546.98
Sulfuric 0.00
88% Lactic ml/Gal 1.4587

Lots of chalk and baking soda as sources of sodium and calcium. The reason is because your specified profile's calcium and sodium requirements are way out of line with the sulfate and chloride requirements. The rather large amount of lactic acid is then required to neutralize the alkalinity of the added bicarb and chalk. It seems almost every profile people are posting these days has this problem. Reduce the calcium and sodium or find another better proportioned profile.

You can't.

Note that if you add the acid specified above the synthesized water pH will be 5.4 and the water's alkalinity will be 0 wrt that pH.

If you brew without the dark grains your mash is going to have a larger proton deficit that it would if you included the dark grains and so you will have to add more acid that the calculated amount for the water but if you do that mash pH should come out OK. But at the conclusion you add the dark grains with their proton surfeits. This will drive wort pH low (which may be your intention) but I'd keep an eye on that aspect of it.

First, thanks for your reply. I've been using your primer for years and figured it was time to step things up a notch with Bru'nwater.

Here's what I'm doing and trying to accomplish. I'm mashing a 6 gal pils(ish) batch (full volume BIAB for what it's worth) and I'll be splitting the runnings in two for the boil. Half will get hopped up for a German Pils and the other half capped with Melanoidin, Caramunich, and roasted malts.

I'm trying to hit 3 water profiles--one for the mash, a another addition for the pils, and another for the SB. I happened upon a page on the BrauKaiser site with several profiles that I figured would fit the bill; a soft profile for the mash (I'll be using 3% acid malt as stated), a more sulfate-heavy pils profile, and a schwarzbier profile. I figured these were some profiles I could trust. If I used the soft profile with less sulfate I could add some gypsum to get the pils profile and then add some CaCl to the SB (or whatever else I need to hit the numbers by playing around in the spreadsheet).

Since I do this sort of split mashing all the time, I'm curious to know how to handle this sort of situation in the future (pale ale mash with stout steeping grains, etc.). Should I try to hit my mash pH without roasted malts and then add them without chalk? Add some chalk and/or baking soda with the steeped grains, since they have some flavor contributions and/or change final pH of the beer?

More specifically for my next brew, I'm interested in what a better proportioned profile would be so I can try to hit it in Bru'nwater. What should I shoot for on the SB and on the German pils? I think if I had that I could make a mash profile from the common elements. Would using CaCl, gypsum, and epsom salt without the chalk and baking soda and targeting the Cl and SO4 levels give me a more balanced profile (accepting lower Ca, Mg levels and no -CO3)?

 

[tennesseean_87]

So I looked up some other profiles and played around with the numbers a bit and have a few tentative profiles. I am still going off of the BrauKaiser profiles, but allowing more Cl in the sb to allow me to bump up the Ca while still keeping the SO4 low. I think this will help give the contrast I'm looking for between a maltier SB and hoppier pils. Am I on the right track?

Ions: Ca-Mg-Na-SO4-Cl (1 bicarbonate showing in brunwater for all)
Mash: 36-3.9-0.0-15.4-64
Pils: 60-7.8-0.0-89.9-64
SB: 50-3.9-0.0-15.4-90

 

[ajdelange]

Pils (especially the Bohemian Pils) is a very malty beer but at the same time it is highly hopped which they are able to do by using the noble Saaz in great quantity which gives a very fine bitterness provided the sulfate is kept low. The sulfate level at the original source (Urquell) is around 5 mg/L and the water is much lower in calcium and chloride than you are considering. German Pilsners are made with water with higher sulfate levels but lower hopping rates must be used because sulfate renders the bitterness harsh.

I don't know much about the Schwartz beer. I have drunk a great deal of it, all, unfortunately, in one night when I found a pub in Landstuhl with one of those little lanterns outside that said Köstritzer on it and dragged my colleagues in. It is quite sweet, as I recall, but not malty sweet. I think they add lactose to the finished beer but I really don't remember much about it except that the hangover was bad.

 

[mabrungard]

As AJ recalls, John Palmer had a discussion with Dr. Kunze who said that Pilsner Urquell does add gypsum to their water. There are sacks of gypsum at the brewery. Kunze did not know what that brewery brings their sulfate level to, but it should be obvious that PU does believe that some sulfate in their pils is an asset. I doubt that its very high, but it certainly does not need to be zero. At least this brewery's evidence suggests that something greater than 5 ppm SO4 is desirable in their beer. I don't find PU's bittering or hop character harsh...and there is huge Saaz hoppiness in PU. So, I suggest that the premise that sulfate makes noble hops harsh, is dubious at best. However, I will concede that you could overdo the sulfate level and eventually produce a beer that was drier than desirable.

I've had plenty of Kostritzer. It is a wonderful, malty beer with just a hint of roast flavor. It's typically made with a large proportion of Pils malt, but some Munich malt can be in there. Being a Reinheitsgebot beer, lactose is certainly not a component. It is a very drinkable beer, so I can understand how easily it would be to over-imbibe that one. Delicious.

 

[ajdelange]

I should have made it clear that I was assuming that the poster wanted the real PU of yore - not what comes out of the brewery today. I assumed that because it was much better beer. When I visited PU (and I hate to think how many years ago that was) there were no sacks of gypsum lying about the brewery. Doesn't mean, I suppose, they couldn't have had some stashed in a cellar somewhere, but if we think about what I posted yesterday I think we'll conclude that they didn't. In those days the stuff was made with, AFAIK, untreated well water and lots of Saaz to the extent that it read around 45 IBU IIRC. The last time I measured it it came in at about 25 (again relying on memory so grant me a little slack). Back in the heyday primary fermentation was done in wooden vats and lagering, all 3 months of it, in huge wooden barrels. All that is gone and the beer is, in the opinion of those old enough to remember, a ghost of what it once was. So why is all that stuff gone by the wayside. We all know the answer. Dollars (or I guess crowns in this case). All that time and plant and Saazer hops are expensive and PU couldn't compete worldwide if those practices were maintained. If you want to get more bang for your hops buck you move away from the noble varieties, hop to a lower level and add sulfate. So I guess I'm not really surprised if they are using sulfate now. Yes, it degrades the quality of the bittering but if you reduce the level of the bittering, as they have done, then you can get away with it and the bean counters are happy.

If you want to make the old style beer you will be well advised to keep the sulfate very low and use a lot of Saaz but work up to it because 45 IBU even from Saaz is a lot of bittering.

Now as to the Köstritzer and lactose: the beer was brewed in Thuringia (about all I remember of the conversation that night in the pub is "ja, aus Thuringen") which AFAIK did not follow the Biersteuergesetz and I am sure I read that lactose was a part of the formulation of Schwartzbier if not Köstritzer in particular. I do not know if Köstritzer used/uses lactose before or after the wall came down. Vague recollection that I read about the lactose in one of Michael Jackson's books.

 

[mabrungard]

PU was better than it is now? That is a high mark! However, I do enjoy the maltiness and substantial bittering that comes from that beer. That dose of sulfate they use, probably helps bring the bittering through. Tasty now, would have loved to taste it if it has changed from the past.

 

[ajdelange]

PU was better than it is now?

Well this isn't the Burgerliches Brauhaus any more. It's SABMiller. That makes it, by definition, megaswill.

That is a high mark!

It is better megaswill than a lot of megaswill. What happened to them reminds me a lot of Singha. That was a really nice German Pils. Have no idea what hop variety they used or how much sulfate is in their supply but it was pretty hoppy. In Sept 2007 they wimped it down to 5% ABV from 6, reduced the hopping level and hired a rock star to promote it. Again the bean counters determined the product's qualities and another really good (at least I liked it) beer bit the dust.

However, I do enjoy the maltiness and substantial bittering that comes from that beer.

You probably would have like the old better. The reason they refer to that bitterness as fine is that it is fine.

That dose of sulfate they use, probably helps bring the bittering through.

It would certainly get them an impression of more bitterness (but less than the Ur) per unit of hops used at the expense of roughening it and I am sure that's exactly why they do it.

Tasty now, would have loved to taste it if it has changed from the past.

Brew it! Actually it is a tough one. I've been working on it for 20 yrs or more but at least you will get the general idea. I don't think the available yeast strain is the real thing (I was told "Sorry, is today laboratory closed" when I showed up with a couple of slants) so I tend to use the Budvar strain which tastes more like the real Budvar than the stuff made with the Pilsen strain tastes like the authentic PU.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Thanks once more for the replies, gentlemen.

I am shooting for a pils on the hoppier end of the spectrum, which is why I am going for the German and not bohemian version. Still, I don't want an IPAD with German ingredients. Should I cut the SO4 back?

One of the things I am shooting for is a different feel for each beer even though they share most of the same Grist and the same mash. I want a crisper pils and a rounder though not heavy sb.

 

[ajdelange]

I am shooting for a pils on the hoppier end of the spectrum, which is why I am going for the German and not bohemian version. Still, I don't want an IPAD with German ingredients. Should I cut the SO4 back?

There are two kinds of bitterness here: the very fine bitterness that comes from the noble hop varieties which should be used with very low sulfate (Bohemian pils) and the rougher bitterness that comes from the use of other hop cultivars with sulfate (German Pils). I'd say try them both.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Since I am using Tettnang hops I will cut the sulfate back, perhaps to around 50. Does that sound good?

 

[ajdelange]

It sounds like a reasonable approach. You will have to tell me whether it is good or not and remember that producing a beer that you like is most often the goal. In some cases producing a beer that wins contests or satisfies a consumer may be the goal but usually it is getting what you like.

Depending on how deeply you plan to go into this I would recommend that you do your first beer with 0 sulfate. You can then add increments of sulfate to the finished beer as you taste it to see if the sulfate is benefit or detriment. Use the results of these tests evolve your own recipe.

 

[tennesseean_87]

I've brewed Pilsners in the past by following your soft profile. I figured I'd try switching things up a bit and use a moderate amount of sulfate. I think I'll target something closer to 30 or 40, and perhaps use a gravity sample or a serving for dosing with a gypsum tincture. Maybe I'll dose the SB with some baking soda for grins.

The problem I have is that I'm a moderate drinker and don't usually have lots of friends come over and empty bottles for me. I will brew this pils and drink it this spring/summer, and probably won't brew another until next year, and that may well be a Classic American rather than the Bohemian style I've brewed before or the German I'm brewing tomorrow.

 

[gspot]

I just did a German pils and targeted Düsseldorf. I ended up with 60.5 ppm calcium, 74.7 ppm sulfate, and 55 ppm chloride by adding .5g/gal gypsum and .4g/gal calcium chloride to 100% ro water. It's lagering now.

 

[ajdelange]

Which hops variety?

 

[gspot]

Hallertau mittelfrüh

 

[tennesseean_87]

My brew day was a disaster. Because of other complications I forgot to add the gypsm to teh boil. I used enough to hit 40ppm, and ended up tossing it in the fermenter with the yeast. I hope that the action of fermentation will mix it around a little, though I'm not confident. I did remember to throw some extra CaCl in my SB.

 

[gspot]

Assuming no other unforeseen problems with the brew, I don't think you've made BAD beer because of that. It might be perceived a little more malty and a little less hoppy, but then again it might not be so evident. I find the differences water changes make to be subtle. Hope you're happy with it nonetheless!

 

[tennesseean_87]

Assuming no other unforeseen problems with the brew, I don't think you've made BAD beer because of that. It might be perceived a little more malty and a little less hoppy, but then again it might not be so evident. I find the differences water changes make to be subtle. Hope you're happy with it nonetheless!

The problems which made me forget my water addition were the disaster part. I forgot to line my basket with my bag, so I ended up with grain in my kettle. I finally got it all filtered out, but mash temps were not what they should have been (took forever to get it up to my second sacc rest at 157). I'm hoping they aren't too dry. Gravity sample on the SB tasted sweet but good at 1.03, so we'll see. It will be beer.

 

[gspot]

so we'll see. It will be beer.

Yep. Here's hoping your next brew day will go a little smoother! Prost!